Woman in face veil detained

[shadowhive]

but your reasoning is not sound.

if the reason for banning the veil in public at all times is because it hides the face, then anything that hides the face should be banned.

since flu masks are not banned, the reason for banning "because it hides the face" is false.

Ok, you don't seem to get it. So I'll say this as plainly as I can. If there is a VALID REASON for wearing something it is ok. Examples: wearing a flu mask is ok, because it protects the wearer from a disease. A firemen wearing a mask is ok, because it's necessary for their job. A motorbike helmet is ok, because it's protection when they are riding a bike.

A veil is NOT ok because is has no such reason attached to it. Is that clear now? I hope so, because you're really trying my patience now. (Seriiously, this is the third or forth time that someone's gone over this with you at least.)

certainly when a law is introduced it is imposed on an existing situation, but let's not pretend or imply that the law has always been around and it is the muslims that are coming into a new country and disrespecting the existing law I was responding to this - "but they chose to leave the culture and move to another - where that dress code is considered unacceptable".

And as I said, they can always g back or somewhere else if they have a problem with this law. Or, how about this: they actually OBEY the law since it isn't necessary to wear the veil at all to begin with.

How does banning the veil protect against terrorism? if you want to blow yourself up or gun down old ladies you can do it wearing anything. The notion that banning the veil will improve national security or combat terroism is false.

Security.

If there's a known criminal how do you identify them? By their face. So the face is circulated on tv, in newspapers, on the internet to raise awareness. If someone is wearing a veil then BAM! Their face is obscured. They could be anyone behind that thing, and you just don't know. It's that simple.

if the woman wants to wear it then it is not oppressive, it is oppressive to ban her from wearing it.

How many Muslim women make the choice themselves and how many have the choice made for them?

[Guest]

How many Muslim women make the choice themselves and how many have the choice made for them?

Very good point.

Let us not dismiss the important point that despite all the practical reasons which have been discussed, there is also the fact that France has drawn a line in the sand and said this is what it means to be French and this is what is expected of you to live within our secular state. If that is unacceptable then the door is open.

Br Cornelius

[Little Fish]

Ok, you don't seem to get it. So I'll say this as plainly as I can. If there is a VALID REASON for wearing something it is ok. Examples: wearing a flu mask is ok, because it protects the wearer from a disease. A firemen wearing a mask is ok, because it's necessary for their job. A motorbike helmet is ok, because it's protection when they are riding a bike.

A veil is NOT ok because is has no such reason attached to it. Is that clear now? I hope so, because you're really trying my patience now. (Seriiously, this is the third or forth time that someone's gone over this with you at least.)

but we are talking about a reason to ban an item of clothing, not about reasons to wear something. there is no reason to wear a headscalf, should we ban headscalfs too? I think your patience is running out because your are realising there is no valid reason to ban the veil.

Security.

If there's a known criminal how do you identify them? By their face. So the face is circulated on tv, in newspapers, on the internet to raise awareness. If someone is wearing a veil then BAM! Their face is obscured. They could be anyone behind that thing, and you just don't know. It's that simple.

If someone is wearing a flu mask then their face is obscured. so anyone who wants to obscure their face still can, muslim or otherwise. banning veils will not help security.

[shadowhive]

but we are talking about a reason to ban an item of clothing, not about reasons to wear something. there is no reason to wear a headscalf, should we ban headscalfs too? I think your patience is running out because your are realising there is no valid reason to ban the veil.

And I have stated, as simply as I can, why. If you cannot see the logic then I'm sorry. I can't make it any clearer then I have.

There's no reason at all to ban the headscarf. The question is, then, why do people wear the veil, when the headscarf is the only thing that's mentioned as being necessary by their religion?

If someone is wearing a flu mask then their face is obscured. so anyone who wants to obscure their face still can, muslim or otherwise. banning veils will not help security.

A flu mask doesn't cover anywhere near as much of the face as a veil does. And you know something? No one complains when asked to remove their flu masks. You know how many Muslims complain when asked to remove the veil? 90%.

[Guest]

It is aimed at a particular section of society - because that particular section is causing a particular problem.

Other people do not habitually conceal their identity without reason - so they are not targeted by this legislation.

Br Cornelius

[Helen of Annoy]

nobody asked you to comment, and nobody woke you up, or is minding my own business now verbotten.

There, there, you little anarchist, do I need your special invitation to comment on your posts?

This was very illiberal of you. Would you like a mod to protect you? They are like the police in the real life, always there to help people who are too clumsy to help themselves.

How can I resist?

You’re such an easy target and I have my frustrations to take out on someone.

So, the bottom line is that Muslim women can wear traditional Arab clothing in Europe (in France too, they outlawed burka only, with which I don't agree but have to respect other people's laws), but no woman can wear anything but said traditional Arab clothing in any of sharia countries.

Where’s the balance there? Where’s reciprocity? Why Europe has to accommodate everyone and no one has to accommodate Europe?

Personally, I find sharia view on women highly offensive and I don’t want to be insulted with visible symbols of such world view in which I’m not entirely human just because I’m female. But I suffer it in the name of compromise.

I'm not happy with the radical Muslim response to my patience and friendliness.

[meryt-tetisheri]

My questions are addressed to Little Fish, is the burqa/veil a Muslim religious requirement, or a cultural Saudi Arabian/Maghreb tradition?

What are the reasons, justifications behind this requirement?

Were the women Sahaba ( members of the Prophet’s companions), during his lifetime, veiled or had their faces uncovered?

What was the official Fatwa given by Sheikh Al Azhar about the interdiction of the veil in France?

I think I can understand your position more clearly if I know your answer to these questions, otherwise everyone here is locked in an endless circular discussion!

[Little Fish]

I don't know, to all those questions.

are the answers relevant in any way?

[Little Fish]

Where’s reciprocity? Why Europe has to accommodate everyone and no one has to accommodate Europe?

two wrongs don't make a right.

[meryt-tetisheri]

I don't know, to all those questions.

are the answers relevant in any way?

Yes they are. When you mention "Muslim" attire, that means attire worn as required by the Quran & Hadith, Sunna, universally accepted & practiced in ALL Muslim societies; which is NOT the case. Women in Muslim East Mediterranean societies, indonesia, Africa..etc do not wear face veils; nor are there any religious reasons for it other than that propounded by SA's interpretation of Ibn Hanbal & Wahhabi schools. However, there are political factors involved and we are all beating around the bush here!

[Helen of Annoy]

two wrongs don't make a right.

There’s only one wrong. On the side that does not make any concessions, but demands them.

Do you see what’s wrong now?

Yes they are. When you mention "Muslim" attire, that means attire worn as required by the Quran & Hadith, Sunna, universally accepted & practiced in ALL Muslim societies; which is NOT the case. Women in Muslim East Mediterranean societies, indonesia, Africa..etc do not wear face veils; nor are there any religious reasons for it other than that propounded by SA's interpretation of Ibn Hanbal & Wahhabi schools. However, there are political factors involved and we are all beating around the bush here!

Thank you. Informative, concise and clear as ever.

[Little Fish]

There’s only one wrong. On the side that does not make any concessions, but demands them.

Do you see what’s wrong now?

by banning the veil, then it is both "sides" that are not making concessions.

[Helen of Annoy]

by banning the veil, then it is both "sides" that are not making concessions.

You still don’t understand that I’m not for bannings of any kind of clothing?

You still ignore every serious aspect of this story?

You still ignore the fact that the veil is tribal, not religious requirement?

I’m amazed.

OK, once more. Just for you.

This ridiculous “fashion police” situation only diverts the focus from real problem – political influence of people with very dangerous world views, who are literally buying their way into Europe.

Maybe you’re for market so free that even countries and cultures are for sale, I am not.

Do yourself a favour and read tetisheri’s posts again. She explained it so concise even you can understand.

[acidhead]

Lmao! Most of the replies on here are so ignorant in knowledge and understanding it's laughable!

As a Muslim I can tell you there is no choice in hijab, hijab for men and Muslim women is obligated, the burqa, covering the face is an option for a women to freely choose, with some cultural affiliation to it. Regardless of what some of you see on YouTube of wiki, nothing beats hard research and study of a subject what ever it might be. Ugly or beautiful have nothing to do with it, man or woman you have adhere to a hijab in public. Underneath the burqa or hijab is a woman like others, just like some of you, wearing designer clothes, jeans, skirts etc. So get over the mystery element. There is no mystery.

Democracy and freedom are rights of everyone, to express one self visually verbally ideologically are essential fundamentals of freedom and democracy, this ban is clearly against freedom of religion, expression and the freedom to dress as one wishes. A person walk around with a Nazi symbol, but a women cannot wear a burqa covering herself, her chastity etc. I understand the perspective that in a bank identity is a must, this is not a realistic problem, all a bank needs to do is send a female worker, clerk etc to speak and to get their identity, visually. Simples!!!! This whole ban is another bigoted extremist secular move by a country which already treats Muslims as second class citizens and have done so for decades.

As for those who claim the hijab is repressive, this is BS, as much as I respect your opinion it's baseless in evidence. Just ponder on the following fact, Europe and America has the highest number of converts to Islam, which is the fastest spreading religion in these continents, out of those who convert the large majority are women from all backgrounds, from highly educated career women to housewives, from secular, atheist and other religious backgrounds. Why? Why turn to Islam if it represses them?

Yes, this ban is just another example of the West issuing another law that creates a society of diversion manipulated by sexual perversion. Its done under the presumption of humanitarian or woman's rights yet actually accomplishes the opposite from what the law intended to do because it strips rights from the people who were once free to choose whats best for them.

Dick Morris explains:

[Helen of Annoy]

15 minutes?

Before I spend so much time on that clip, does it mention who is financing this burka fashion?

[shadowhive]

Yes, this ban is just another example of the West issuing another law that creates a society of diversion manipulated by sexual perversion. Its done under the presumption of humanitarian or woman's rights yet actually accomplishes the opposite from what the law intended to do because it strips rights from the people who were once free to choose whats best for them.

So a woman must cover up their face (and every inch of skin) because of 'sexual perversion'? Wow. Someone is living in the dark ages aren't they?

[acidhead]

So a woman must cover up their face (and every inch of skin) because of 'sexual perversion'? Wow. Someone is living in the dark ages aren't they?

This is what the law says not me.

[meryt-tetisheri]

Yes, this ban is just another example of the West issuing another law that creates a society of diversion manipulated by sexual perversion. Its done under the presumption of humanitarian or woman's rights yet actually accomplishes the opposite from what the law intended to do because it strips rights from the people who were once free to choose whats best for them.

Dick Morris explains:

What exactly is "a society of diversion manipulated by sexual perversion"? Diversion from what to what?

Also, are you implying that there only two alternatives face veil or sexual perversion ? Do you find that is a realistic evaluation or an over generalization?

I find it noteworthy that the most enthusiastic & vociferous proponents of the veil are men, who do not have to wear it!

[shadowhive]

This is what the law says not me.

That's why laws in Middle Eastern contries border on the insane.

[Michelle]

What I'm more concerned about are the women that are forced by their families to wear it in public. Some wear it because they want to, and a lot of them do, but what about the others? They will be left a virtual prisoner in their own homes.

[Mainpoint]

I repeat - where in the Koran does it prescribe the Burka. what religious freedom has been oppressed ?

It is a dress code specific to a small minority of muslim cultures - but they chose to leave the culture and move to another - where that dress code is considered unacceptable. Adapt or return to the place where the Burka is acceptable.

Female genital mutilation is also a cultural practice of many of the same Burka wearing cultures - are you proposing that Europe be tolerant of it out of cultural sensitivity ?

Br Cornelius

thats just a ridiculous argument doesnt make any sense

As you noticed the law is discriminatory and has no place in modern democratic society, As people forcible carry out genital mutilation france is forcibly stopping women from wearing veils.

[Mainpoint]

What I'm more concerned about are the women that are forced by their families to wear it in public. Some wear it because they want to, and a lot of them do, but what about the others? They will be left a virtual prisoner in their own homes.

A very good point you raised.

Look closely at the law.

You see the law punishes women. They are the ones that will get fined.

If women are being forced WHY ISNT THE LAW DESIGNED TO PUNISH PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSIDLY MAKING THE WOMEN WEAR VEILS. Why is the alleged victim being punished not the perpetrators.

you see the hypocrisy of the law.

[acidhead]

What exactly is "a society of diversion manipulated by sexual perversion"? Diversion from what to what?

Also, are you implying that there only two alternatives face veil or sexual perversion ? Do you find that is a realistic evaluation or an over generalization?

I find it noteworthy that the most enthusiastic & vociferous proponents of the veil are men, who do not have to wear it!

In the video its women who are being interviewed -not men!

Why do you feel its necessary to ban something in order to get a point across?

It's obvious the law has an unintended consequence that actually strips women of their rights. It does the opposite. For those who choose to wear the burqa to avoid any unwanted sexual diversion between sexes it actually says, "These women are now open for sexual perversion!" Women who do not wish to be open for sexual perversion do not have the choice to conceal themselves, thus thwarting any attempt by the same men you call and I'll quote "vociferous proponents of the veil."

Like the magic pills that the western world gobbles up every day also too many assume that emotionally creating new laws are the cure all for everybody. I've got news for you - we don't need any more laws.... we've got millions of them that do the opposite of what they are intended to do and only create but more hardship on the very people they were intended to help.

Edited April 16, 2011 by acidhead

[Little Fish]

Yes they are. When you mention "Muslim" attire, that means attire worn as required by the Quran & Hadith, Sunna, universally accepted & practiced in ALL Muslim societies; which is NOT the case. Women in Muslim East Mediterranean societies, indonesia, Africa..etc do not wear face veils; nor are there any religious reasons for it other than that propounded by SA's interpretation of Ibn Hanbal & Wahhabi schools. However, there are political factors involved and we are all beating around the bush here!

let's not kid ourselves, the veil is worn by muslims, banning it is clearly aimed at muslim people. you think it won't be viewed as an attack on islam and muslims amongst neo-nazi and muslim communities because you have a technical argument that the quran does not require the wearing of it?

this is is about whether the state should be discriminating against minorities and whether the state should be telling people what to wear or what not to wear, how orwellian that the state is crushing women's freedom of choice in the name of women's liberty. this is a nazi magnet and nazi energizer and everyone knows it, and from a state that bans the swastika and invented the word liberty.

[meryt-tetisheri]

This is what the law says not me.

Why are women required to uncover their faces during the pilgrimage 'Haj' ?