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Woman in face veil detained


Persia

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If they choose to wear the Burka - then at some point they may have to make the difficult choice of moving to a country where that is considered acceptable. It is a matter of personal choice, but all choices have consequences.

Sometimes when an iliberal ideology threatens a Liberal society then it will have to make unfortunate laws to protect itself. This is always the case when preditory ideas are at large. This is why it is illegal to be a Nazi in Germany - or maybe you believe that to be wrong.

Br Cornelius

the veil is not being mandated, it is voluntary, a personal choice, yet you call that "iliberal"

defintion of iliberal:

1. narrow-minded; prejudiced; bigoted; intolerant

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/illiberal

so someone choosing to wear something by free will is biggoted, prejudice and intolerant,

and banning that free choice is tolerant and without predjudice?

do you understand what freedom is?

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France is secular and will defend itself against the excessive influence of any religious faction. This is a symbolic message, and I hope you understand the message it is designed to send.

Br Cornelius

So the motive for this law is national security. correct? So the muslims do not take over a demoicratic government with universal rights for everybody. This is the argument... the justification for stripping a right once enjoyed by many but removed and made illegal for the reason of national security.

Sure, as you mentioned, people who choose to wear it are free to choose a country who doesn't ban the burqa.... that's their choice. Either live in a country and respect their laws or move to another country..... correct?

But, back inside a european nation, a nation like many western nations -the beacons of democracy and universal humanitarian rights the rules must be changed for national security reasons! The laws must be adopted which actually strip people of their rights in order to maintain a society full of humanitarian rights!

How orwellian of you!

'there can be no freedom when in a constant state of warfare' -Bruce Fein

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You are just hating there is no entity known as islamic imperialism you just made it up.

Not just womans rights. It has everything to do with personal rights personal freedoms and liberties. People in france should be free to practice any religion they wisheth.

You didn't even read my earlier (by one) post, did you ?

If there is no such thing as Islamic Imperialism, please explain to me the conquest of most of the Middle East (as we now call it), North Africa, Turkey, Spain, Southern France (as was), Italy.. I can go on.. by the armies of the Muslim Caliphate ?

You didn't know ANY of that, did you ?

when the Muslim Armies began their conquest of Spain, they first conquered a Spanish town called Cordoba. This then became a symbol of "the first step" .. the bridgehead.

A Saudi-financed group have been lobbying to create a Mosque on the site of "ground zero"... the ruins of the World Trade Centre.

Guess what they wanted to call it ?

The Cordoba Mosque.

No Islamic Imperialism ? Wake up Mainpoint, and do a little research.

I am not hating. There is much to admire in the Islamic faith. I do not hate, but at the same time, I am not blind.

meow purr :)

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Are you saying in the guise of secular ideology France should start adopting Nazi principles of targeting other religions in France and making them illegal?.

I am simply pointing out that no religious freedom has been constrained. This is not a religious requirement of Islam - so banning it has no effect on Muslim womens right to religious freedom.

And without a state wide ban on Nazism in Germany - I can assure you that it would still be a strong and growing political force. It was banned and prevented from becoming so as a result. These are the difficult choices which have to be made - what achieves the greater good.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Guest
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So the motive for this law is national security. correct? So the muslims do not take over a demoicratic government with universal rights for everybody. This is the argument... the justification for stripping a right once enjoyed by many but removed and made illegal for the reason of national security.

Most countries have laws in place to control guns. Before those laws were in place, anyone could own a gun. Thus, it was difficult to trackdown the wepon when it was used for criminal activity. In the Uk, when cars were first available, all you had to do was own a car to be be able to drive it. Now we can't unless we pass tests. This was because there was an accident for every third car on the road before that.

There are many 'freedoms' that people have enjoyed in the past, but they were removed for obvious reasons. This is another obvious one.

Sure, as you mentioned, people who choose to wear it are free to choose a country who doesn't ban the burqa.... that's their choice. Either live in a country and respect their laws or move to another country..... correct?

But, back inside a european nation, a nation like many western nations -the beacons of democracy and universal humanitarian rights the rules must be changed for national security reasons! The laws must be adopted which actually strip people of their rights in order to maintain a society full of humanitarian rights!

How orwellian of you!

'there can be no freedom when in a constant state of warfare' -Bruce Fein

If another religious group had a veil, they would lose it too.

Again: how many Muslim women choose what they wear themselves and how many wear the veil because they're told to do so?

I had a friend, she was a Muslim. She was afraid that because she liked non-Muslim music she was going to be punished. Imagine that! Punished for the music you liked.

Muslms don't see women the same way you or I see women, as equals. They see women a completely different way, that is why they wear the veil. Not all of them see women that way (thankfully) but enough do that it's created problems for Muslim women in every country around the world, not just Muslim ones.

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If however you refer to it as a “cultural” tradition, as the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar did, then the argument of religious discrimination is defunct. I might have agreed with you about a “respect our traditions’ frame of reference, but then we would both have to agree that non Saudi or western women in SA & Iran should be allowed to uncover their hair etc., based on the same principle; and on continues the circular argument.
go back and check what i said, I am sure i said cultural/religious. nobody sees a women in a burqa/veil and says to themselves "i wonder if that women is a muslim"? it is synonymous. banning it is seen as discriminatory and targetting islam.
What neo Nazis are you talking about? The Swastika is directly involved in the extermination of millions in WWII ! How can you question or compare the prohibition of the symbol of the Nazi Ideology to the burka?
banning the swastika is banning a symbol of discrimination and authoritarianism. banning the veil is discriminatory and authoritarian. you do not see the contradiction/hypocracy? Edited by Little Fish
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Most countries have laws in place to control guns. Before those laws were in place, anyone could own a gun. Thus, it was difficult to trackdown the wepon when it was used for criminal activity. In the Uk, when cars were first available, all you had to do was own a car to be be able to drive it. Now we can't unless we pass tests. This was because there was an accident for every third car on the road before that.

There are many 'freedoms' that people have enjoyed in the past, but they were removed for obvious reasons. This is another obvious one.

???

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I don't care about some pilgrimage. That's not the topic. The topic is about creating a law for women's rights that actually has the unintended consequence of stripping them of their universal right to choose what's best for them. The topic here is a new law being created in a European country. Now you can argue all you want about Islam and what happens to women in other muslim nations until your pretty face goes blue.... I don't care because its not the topic.

I take exception at your use of " pretty face goes blue", DONT PATRONIZE ME.

The law is beiong attacked for signalling out a "RELIGIOUS" minority. No one referred to Moroccan, Algerian, or Arab women. The term used was Muslim, so yes, the religious reasoning comes in the argument, and so does the practice among other Muslim communities .

There is an old saying " your freedom ends where my nose starts", people need to relate to each others facial expression, there's the question of security; finally, women are very often coerced into wearing the veil by male relatives & community pressure. As for women who have a real problem with showing their face in public, an alternative is staying home.

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...

banning the swastika is banning a symbol of discrimination and authoritarianism. banning the veil is discriminatory and authoritarian. you do not see the contradiction/hypocracy?

No contradiction. They are both symbols of a fascist, discriminatory and authoritarian system.

Indeed, authoritarian to the max. Even Hitler never claimed to be backed by God !

meow purr :)

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go back and check what i said, I am sure i said cultural/religious. nobody sees a women in a burqa/veil and says to themselves "i wonder if that women is a muslim"? it is synonymous. banning it is seen as discriminatory and targetting islam.

banning the swastika is banning a symbol of discrimination and authoritarianism. banning the veil is discriminatory and authoritarian. you do not see the contradiction/hypocracy?

Banning the Burka is obliging a countries citizens to conform to cultural values insisted on in that country. The West is very Liberal (unlike the Middle East) but it has definate limits of tolerance. The Burka is an expression of a culture which thinks that women are tempting and men cannot control themselves. Western Europe expects men to control themselves and feels no need to remove the temptation because generally western men behave admirably towards women. Maybe Middle Eastern men should spend some time analysing their cultural values which would consider them incapable of self control without removing temptation.

I think Muslim culture should teach respect for all women regardless of how they present themselves.

Can I ask what is your opinion of women who wear sexy cloths and short skirts ? It should tell us a great deal about the cultural values the French are trying to protect.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

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???

I made a list of 'freedoms' everyone enjoyed in past, which I doubt you'd want now.

I was hoping to make the point that freedom is not 100%. Some minor freedoms can be (and have been) taken away. We can't walk around naked. We can't buy a car and drive it without having a license. We can't all walk around with guns.

The veil is a 'freedom' that's just not worth it. To begin with it's an optional thing. Then there's the legitimate national security concerns. Women being coerced into wearing them. That it's a symbol for inequality.

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Can I ask what is your opinion of women who wear sexy cloths and short skirts ? It should tell us a great deal about the cultural values the French are trying to protect.

if women want to wear sexy cloths and short skirts, or even bikinis, then that's their choice. I won't interfere with their right to dress how they please, and neither should the state.

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hahaha... western women

I am Egyptian.

I find it absolutely telling that you are all discussing the rights of a minority vis a vis the "Orwellian" state, but have nothing to say about the rights of a woman to be regarded as something more than 'piece of meat' ( a sheikh in Australia), a lollipop (Muslim Brotherhood), who has to covered head to toe in the heat while some sheikhs can discuss whether their eyes are 'seditious" or not; whether her left eye only or both eyes may show,...all to save the sexual morality of hapless, helpless men who can't take responsibility for the way the handle 'temptation?

What freedom are you talking about? Can any of you supply any proof of the percentage of veiled women who were not directly or indirectly coerced into wearing it? Do you even care that while talking about said "freedom" you dehumanized these women

How many of you who are discussing the right to wear a burka are women? What is the liklihood of any of you having to spend your life deprived of something as simple as a bit of sun or fresh breeze on your face?

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I am Egyptian.

I find it absolutely telling that you are all discussing the rights of a minority vis a vis the "Orwellian" state, but have nothing to say about the rights of a woman to be regarded as something more than 'piece of meat' ( a sheikh in Australia), a lollipop (Muslim Brotherhood), who has to covered head to toe in the heat while some sheikhs can discuss whether their eyes are 'seditious" or not; whether her left eye only or both eyes may show,...all to save the sexual morality of hapless, helpless men who can't take responsibility for the way the handle 'temptation?

What freedom are you talking about? Can any of you supply any proof of the percentage of veiled women who were not directly or indirectly coerced into wearing it? Do you even care that while talking about said "freedom" you dehumanized these women

How many of you who are discussing the right to wear a burka are women? What is the liklihood of any of you having to spend your life deprived of something as simple as a bit of sun or fresh breeze on your face?

Its good to hear the reality of what the Burka actually represents - as opposed to the "Freedom" that is been taken away :tu:

Br Cornelius

Edited by Guest
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I am Egyptian.

I find it absolutely telling that you are all discussing the rights of a minority vis a vis the "Orwellian" state, but have nothing to say about the rights of a woman to be regarded as something more than 'piece of meat' ( a sheikh in Australia), a lollipop (Muslim Brotherhood), who has to covered head to toe in the heat while some sheikhs can discuss whether their eyes are 'seditious" or not; whether her left eye only or both eyes may show,...all to save the sexual morality of hapless, helpless men who can't take responsibility for the way the handle 'temptation?

What freedom are you talking about? Can any of you supply any proof of the percentage of veiled women who were not directly or indirectly coerced into wearing it? Do you even care that while talking about said "freedom" you dehumanized these women

How many of you who are discussing the right to wear a burka are women? What is the liklihood of any of you having to spend your life deprived of something as simple as a bit of sun or fresh breeze on your face?

I agree with your and Br's sentiment's.

I see women as equals, not pieces of meat and I don't think anyone, anywhere in the world should have the power musims seems to have over women. Certainly it holds no place in a secular society.

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It's not about freedom it's about political stance. France has made a stance and they have that freedom as a nation to do so. To disagree with France and it's choice to decide for the people in regards to a vial or burka is there's to make. Does a secular nation have to give up it's choice to make laws in regards to religion demands. No I will back France on this as they as anyone else would like the laws there nation votes for to be the law. To bow to out side pressure is what? France is not an Islamic state so why should they not have the same freedom to make laws that stem the flow of a religious influence.

Flip the coin and we see westerners killed for swearing and holding hands in there states. When in Rome right. Oh wait did Rome fall for economic reasons or religious ones?

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How many of you who are discussing the right to wear a burka are women? What is the liklihood of any of you having to spend your life deprived of something as simple as a bit of sun or fresh breeze on your face?

well if you don't like it you could stay at home and sit in the garden with your burka off, or go to a country that will allow you to take it off.

I do not mean that, but that is basically the argument being put forward for the ban on wearing a veil. oppression in one place does not justify oppression in another place.

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well if you don't like it you could stay at home and sit in the garden with your burka off, or go to a country that will allow you to take it off.

I do not mean that, but that is basically the argument being put forward for the ban on wearing a veil. oppression in one place does not justify oppression in another place.

Let me ask you something. Is oppression of women (or any other group for that matter) justified because it's in the name of religion?

Edited by shadowhive
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well if you don't like it you could stay at home and sit in the garden with your burka off, or go to a country that will allow you to take it off.

I do not mean that, but that is basically the argument being put forward for the ban on wearing a veil. oppression in one place does not justify oppression in another place.

So covering up your face trumps all other considerations.

Very nuanced.

Br Cornelius

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France is not an Islamic state so why should they not have the same freedom to make laws that stem the flow of a religious influence

and would you be ok with laws that stemmed the flow of jewish influence?

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and would you be ok with laws that stemmed the flow of jewish influence?

I would like laws the protect the people against this.

Jews, I call them Israelites. Special laws for groups I will not support. Equal is equal. I could not walk into a 7/11 with a burka on could I?

Edited by The Silver Thong
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Jews, I call them Israelites. Special laws for groups I will not support. Equal is equal. I could not walk into a 7/11 with a burka on could I?

jewish is religion, israeli is nationality.

you mentioned laws to stem religious influence, so would you be ok with laws stemming other religous influence like judaism, or just laws against islam?

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jewish is religion, israeli is nationality.

you mentioned laws to stem religious influence, so would you be ok with laws stemming other religous influence like judaism, or just laws against islam?

As far as you say the Jews I care little about the plight some feel as they and you and me should all be treated equal. Israels special treatment is due to religion and no I don't agree with it. I fully agree with stemming all religious influence in government and will fight to the death to keep it out of government. The burka is not a talking point as far as rights go. It is an argument stating that religion can not supersede laws that protect us from religious influence.

Do I have the right to go into a 7/11 with my face covered? NO so why are rights separated due to a faith I don't agree with. I can only imagine going into a bank wearing a balaclava.

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