shadowhive Posted April 17, 2011 #276 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Now that could have been easily investigated deeply and researched before the law curtailing peoples freedom and liberties was enacted hastily and with prejudice Then they should do so and make sure the women aren't being coerced to lie when asked. All the women I know wear the veil out of their free will. They encourage other people including men women and children to be modest dont tell lies dont steal etc etc. Its just what they decide to do. Good for them. But to me (and many other people) the veil is a symbol of female oppression, doneso out of a sense of 'modesty' which is vasly over the top and unecessary. As a percentage in France they appear to be a small miniscule minority. Compared to that there are many more nuns out there in france. Nuns do not cover their faces and (now anyway) all nuns choose to become nuns. Thusly, comparing the two groups is 100% pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainpoint Posted April 17, 2011 #277 Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) Then they should do so and make sure the women aren't being coerced to lie when asked. Good for them. But to me (and many other people) the veil is a symbol of female oppression, doneso out of a sense of 'modesty' which is vasly over the top and unecessary. Nuns do not cover their faces and (now anyway) all nuns choose to become nuns. Thusly, comparing the two groups is 100% pointless. To you it may be a symbol but its not what the French women who actually wear it think. Why should we take your word for it and punish these women and fine them they have not done any harm to you. Perhaps you should ban the nuns too since its near exact similar scenario and thats the point. Again if you are worried about female oppression one should not have banned the women from actually wearing the veil but gone after the people that are "forcing" them to do it. Unless there are some hidden motives behind making these innocent women who may be poor pay heavy fines and have a police record. These are the most ridiculous aspects of the law. Here its sad to say but the french government is acting like the oppressors and depriving people of freedom of speech religion expression and the law is anti secular. Edited April 17, 2011 by Mainpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowhive Posted April 17, 2011 #278 Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) To you it may be a symbol but its not what the French women who actually wear it think. Why should we take your word for it and punish these women and fine them they have not done any harm to you. If a woman makes the choice themselves (100% freely), that is another thing entirely. If a woman is forced to wear it by a man or by their religion, then no, it's not right. Perhaps you should ban the nuns too since its near exact similar scenario and thats the point. Similar maybe, the same, no. Again if you are worried about female oppression one should not have banned the women from actually wearing the veil but gone after the people that are "forcing" them to do it. Unless there are some hidden motives behind making these innocent women who may be poor pay heavy fines and have a police record. These are the most ridiculous aspects of the law. As has been pointed out, people that force women to wear he veil have a very high penalty for doing so. There are two major points here. The first is female oppression. The second is the covering of the face in general and the problems that leads to. I'm not hearing a solution from you that covers the concerns of both points. Here its sad to say but the french government is acting like the oppressors and depriving people of freedom of speech religion expression and the law is anti secular. Look, it's been made clear, so I'll make it clear again. The veil is NOT a requirement of being a Muslim. In fact, no religion in a world has a dress code requirement. Do all Christians wear crosses? No. Do all Jews wear skull caps? No. Do all hindus have that dot on their forehead? No. So the veil is not necessary for a Muslim woman to wear in the first place. It's an optional garment. I assume it had a practical application in the desert, but that application doesn't stand outside of the desert. A great many people view the veil as a symbol of female oppresion. Is it surprising when the reason behind wearing it now has nothing to do with it's original purpose? Why is the veil worn then? To protect the wearer's modesty (which is an absurd idea to begin with), to keep men from getting lustful thoughts (which is an insult to both genders) and generally to conceal the woman from view. All of those things are offensive to women. So in short, everything the veil represents is an offense to women. So why should it be allowed? Shall I give another example? The symbol we now know as the swatsika was original a hindu symbol for peace (at least I think it was the hindu's). So for hundred's of years no one batted an eyelid about it. Then the Nazi's came along. They took this symbol of peace and twisted it. Now when you see it, you don't think of it's original use (meaning peace) you think of the Nazi's and the horrible things they did. The veil is the same. It's original purpose in the desert has now been distorted completely. Edited April 17, 2011 by shadowhive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fish Posted April 17, 2011 #279 Share Posted April 17, 2011 If a woman makes the choice themselves (100% freely), that is another thing entirely.If a woman is forced to wear it by a man or by their religion, then no, it's not right. I think at last we have made progress! so it seems that you believe the women wearing veils are being coerced and don't really want to wear them. this is in spite of being shown a video of muslim women telling you it is voluntary and indeed taking it upon themsleves to demonstrate publicly indicating how strong their views are on wearing the veil. if these women did not want to wear the veil, then why aren't they demonstrating against it? easily done, since their repressive husbands would never spot them in a crowd of burka cladded women, but we don't see that, we see them demonstrating in IN FAVOUR of wearing it. several posters on this forum have told you it is voluntary, and an article on global research telling you it is voluntary. also interesting is that you said (with no evidence) when asked to remove the veil for "security" reasons 90 % would refuse - but surely if they did not want to wear the veil why would 90% refuse? the only question here is why you believe these women are being coerced to wear the veil, when all the evidence says otherwise. how was your belief formed? could it be anti-islamic propaganda has influenced your view more than the facts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fish Posted April 17, 2011 #280 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Mainpoint, you seem to assume that only Western powers could (historically or currently) act imperialisticly (e.g. to form empires). you should find this animation interesting, (US empire not mentioned) http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf A deliberate, co-ordinated and planned attempt - backed by foreign nation-states - to change the nature of the French Republic. According to a French internal intelligence service investigation last year, 1,900 women wear the niqab in France. None actually wear the burka, the all-encompassing and more restrictive garment popular in Afghanistan."Since there are an estimated two million adult Muslim women in France, niqab wearers amount to roughly one in 1,000 or 0.1 per cent. The typical fully- veiled woman is young, French-born and a recent convert to a purist or radical form of Islam. Half are under 30 and the vast majority under 40. Two- thirds are French born. One in four is a white French woman who converted to Islam before or after she got married." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-wakes-up-to-a-burka-ban-as-sarkozy-unveils-a-new-era-2266054.html if the muslims plan to take over france, they are doing a miserable job at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowhive Posted April 17, 2011 #281 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I think at last we have made progress! No, that's what I said in the first post I made here and pretty much every one after that. So no, no 'progress' has been made, it's just you'e decided to get the message since I put it in aplain way. so it seems that you believe the women wearing veils are being coerced and don't really want to wear them.this is in spite of being shown a video of muslim women telling you it is voluntary and indeed taking it upon themsleves to demonstrate publicly indicating how strong their views are on wearing the veil. if these women did not want to wear the veil, then why aren't they demonstrating against it? easily done, since their repressive husbands would never spot them in a crowd of burka cladded women, but we don't see that, we see them demonstrating in IN FAVOUR of wearing it. You can convince anyone to do something given enough time. If you are taught from birth that women MUST wear the view, then you don't see it as wrong, you just accept it. several posters on this forum have told you it is voluntary, and an article on global research telling you it is voluntary. And I have said (repeatedly) I have no problem is it is TRULY VOLTUNATARY. also interesting is that you said (with no evidence) when asked to remove the veil for "security" reasons 90 % would refuse - but surely if they did not want to wear the veil why would 90% refuse? Easy. They are told to wear it all the time, so when asked to remove it, even with a good reason, they refuse and hold their religion up as an excuse (an excuse which is an unacceptable one). the only question here is why you believe these women are being coerced to wear the veil, when all the evidence says otherwise. how was your belief formed? could it be anti-islamic propaganda has influenced your view more than the facts? It's because the veil itself is a form of oppression, which I think I've explained. Just because that oppression is supported by a religion doesn't make it ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainpoint Posted April 17, 2011 #282 Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) you should find this animation interesting, (US empire not mentioned) http://www.mapsofwar...es/EMPIRE17.swf According to a French internal intelligence service investigation last year, 1,900 women wear the niqab in France. None actually wear the burka, the all-encompassing and more restrictive garment popular in Afghanistan. "Since there are an estimated two million adult Muslim women in France, niqab wearers amount to roughly one in 1,000 or 0.1 per cent. The typical fully- veiled woman is young, French-born and a recent convert to a purist or radical form of Islam. Half are under 30 and the vast majority under 40. Two- thirds are French born. One in four is a white French woman who converted to Islam before or after she got married." http://www.independe...ra-2266054.html if the muslims plan to take over france, they are doing a miserable job at it. Cool finds Its interesting to note looking at the map middle eastern countries have only been free of imperialism for <100 years. For me thats just another sign of extremism that the current right wing french government focused all their resources and efforts to target a harmless minority thats only 0.1% of the current population that just likes to mind its own business. you should find this animation interesting, (US empire not mentioned) http://www.mapsofwar...es/EMPIRE17.swf According to a French internal intelligence service investigation last year, 1,900 women wear the niqab in France. None actually wear the burka, the all-encompassing and more restrictive garment popular in Afghanistan. "Since there are an estimated two million adult Muslim women in France, niqab wearers amount to roughly one in 1,000 or 0.1 per cent. The typical fully- veiled woman is young, French-born and a recent convert to a purist or radical form of Islam. Half are under 30 and the vast majority under 40. Two- thirds are French born. One in four is a white French woman who converted to Islam before or after she got married." http://www.independe...ra-2266054.html if the muslims plan to take over france, they are doing a miserable job at it. Cool finds Its interesting to note looking at the map middle eastern countries have only been free of imperialism for <100 years. For me thats just another sign of extremism that the current right wing french government focused all their resources and efforts to target a harmless minority thats only 0.1% of the current muslims french population that just likes to mind its own business. China now seems to have a better track record of human rights compared to France Edited April 17, 2011 by Mainpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 17, 2011 #283 Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) Cool finds Its interesting to note looking at the map middle eastern countries have only been free of imperialism for <100 years. For me thats just another sign of extremism that the current right wing french government focused all their resources and efforts to target a harmless minority thats only 0.1% of the current population that just likes to mind its own business. Cool finds Its interesting to note looking at the map middle eastern countries have only been free of imperialism for <100 years. For me thats just another sign of extremism that the current right wing french government focused all their resources and efforts to target a harmless minority thats only 0.1% of the current muslims french population that just likes to mind its own business. China now seems to have a better track record of human rights compared to France A little extreme interpration of a ban on covering your face. I still believe they execute people in China for relatively petty crimes. You've just kicked a huge hole in your argument by comparing a ban on covering your face with the death penalty and political repression of anyone but communists :w00t: I believe there are also rather extreme restrictions on religious freedom in China I think you've got your value system all wrong. Br Cornelius Edited April 17, 2011 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 18, 2011 #284 Share Posted April 18, 2011 In this one case I give priority to the rights & dignity of women, and their health, because the burka covering up leads to numerous problems. You might not be aware of it, but many women are coerced by male relatives, or even harrassed in the streets, called "w°°°es, etc to force the veil on them using religion as a pretext when in reality it is not the case; rather there is a question of a ruling dynasty that is seeking political leverage via religious hegemony & the creation of a Muslim "Vatican" of sorts. I am for the law. excellent! bravo tetisheri...it's nice to see someone who actually knows what they're talking about! littlefishes head is in meltdown now....he doesn't know how to deal with a real muslim person...he thought that all women wear burkhas and they all do so out of their own volition. mainpoint...well he IS fundamentalist....so he probably considers you the spawn of satan for conversing with unrelated men in any case. China now seems to have a better track record of human rights compared to France what a fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 18, 2011 #285 Share Posted April 18, 2011 interesting discussions ... well not all of them of course there's some people just trolling around with hate speeches against islam .. but apart from that there's really some nice interesting discussions i got one thing to say let's NOT forget when europe wasn't able to decide wheather women are human or animal ... back then in arabic islamic countries the women were given their full right of everything it's just reminder for the trolls on the topic and islam haters trolls that history before you troll around islam If muslim woman covered her whole body : she's oppressed if a Nun covered her whole body : she's dedicated to god grand denial KoS...i don't hate Islam....but these fanatics who insist on the burkha...who threaten death to cartoonists...who want to murder homosexuals...these people are the ones who hate Islam...these people are the ones sullying your religion. if you want to stop what you percieve as hate then attack the idiots causing it. you've, admirably, admitted on the gang rape thread that the Wahabist interpretation is not, in your opinion, true Islam... be brave and say the same about the burkha ban...you know the truth of the matter as well as i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 18, 2011 #286 Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) I object to the state telling people what they can and cannot wear in public, that would make us allies wouldn't it? 'TRANSLATION: I'M TRYING TO DEFEND MUSLIMS BUT I DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT' one of the funniest things i've seen over the last year or so was a demonstration by some so-called 'leftists' who marched into a french banlieue to 'show solidarity with our muslim brothers' regarding various issues...most centred around some obscure religious bs... the locals were just working class muslim kids...not particularly radicalised nor anything else...just poor working class kids p***ed at the world...like working class kids around the globe. and this procession of middle class 'revolutionaries' came marching proudly into their area with banners about religious oppression, denouncing the cartoons etc etc etc... the 'muslims' beat the living **** out of them and chased them off the estate. i'll try and find the clip later. there's nothing better than watching self-righteous smug a***holes get the reality check of their lives! it should be noted that they are actually motivated by racism and bigotry...they stereotype all muslims and believe the worst stereotypes promoted by the racist western media about muslims...they then try to justify these stereotypes.. utterly missing the point that muslims are individuals...not some homogenous burkha clad mass of seething resentment and anger. these types are the sort of people who think all black people like reggae and have dreadlocks. Edited April 18, 2011 by dekker87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainpoint Posted April 18, 2011 #287 Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) A little extreme interpration of a ban on covering your face. I still believe they execute people in China for relatively petty crimes. You've just kicked a huge hole in your argument by comparing a ban on covering your face with the death penalty and political repression of anyone but communists :w00t: I believe there are also rather extreme restrictions on religious freedom in China I think you've got your value system all wrong. Br Cornelius It a matter perception and opinion brother cornelius China tells its people what they should do even in basic human issues an example would be not to have more than 1 child. I consider reproduction a basic human right. Now France is telling its people what they can wear in public. Clothing is a basic human right too. If France decides to adopt non discriminatory laws and works hard to preserve human rights I would admire it but right now France appears to suppressing its people rights by restricting freedom of religion and freedom of expression. France people are generally lazy and dont like to work thats another things but now this. Edited April 18, 2011 by Mainpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2011 #288 Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) It a matter perception and opinion brother cornelius China tells its people what they should do even in basic human issues an example would be not to have more than 1 child. I consider reproduction a basic human right. Now France is telling its people what they can wear in public. Clothing is a basic human right too. If France decides to adopt non discriminatory laws and works hard to preserve human rights I would admire it but right now France appears to suppressing its people rights by restricting freedom of religion and freedom of expression. France people are generally lazy and dont like to work thats another things but now this. You keep making the bogus claim that a religious freedom is been restricted - and have yet to support it with any actual proof. It is a requirement to adhere to culturally appropriate dress standards - just like most of the Middle East insists on. Your double standards are amazing. Where in the Koran does it stipulate the wearing of the Burka. This must be the 5th time I have asked for the evidence. Its getting mighty boring. And yes claiming that France is more restrictive of personal freedom than China is more than laughable - its delusional. Br Cornelius Edited April 18, 2011 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 18, 2011 #289 Share Posted April 18, 2011 It a matter perception and opinion brother cornelius China tells its people what they should do even in basic human issues an example would be not to have more than 1 child. I can reproduction a basic human right. Now France is telling its people what they can wear in public. Clothing is a basic human right too. quit wriggling....you exposed yourself and made yourself look pretty stupid: China now seems to have a better track record of human rights compared to France freedom of expression. your hypocrisy truly knows no bounds. My link My link France people are generally lazy and dont like to work WTF!?!? I spose they also all wear stripey shirts, ride bicycles and smell of garlic non? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 18, 2011 #290 Share Posted April 18, 2011 You keep making the bogus claim that a religious freedom is been restricted - and have yet to support it with any actual proof. Where in the Koran does it stipulate the wearing of the Burka. This must be the 5th time I have asked for the evidence. Its getting mighty boring. And yes claiming that France is more restrictive of personal freedom than China is more than laughable - its delusional. Br Cornelius mainpoint is either a radical islamist...and so believes that the full veil is an Islamic requirement...and will not admit that as it undermines his 'argument'... or he simply doesn't understand what he's talking about on a very fundamental level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowhive Posted April 18, 2011 #291 Share Posted April 18, 2011 It a matter perception and opinion brother cornelius China tells its people what they should do even in basic human issues an example would be not to have more than 1 child. I consider reproduction a basic human right. Now France is telling its people what they can wear in public. Clothing is a basic human right too. If France decides to adopt non discriminatory laws and works hard to preserve human rights I would admire it but right now France appears to suppressing its people rights by restricting freedom of religion and freedom of expression. France people are generally lazy and dont like to work thats another things but now this. I've a question for you. What if this ban was only in place in certain buildings? By that I mean government buildings, banks, jewellers, military installations and other things of that nature. Would you object if it was banned in those places only, where the reason is obvious: security? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 18, 2011 #292 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I've a question for you. What if this ban was only in place in certain buildings? By that I mean government buildings, banks, jewellers, military installations and other things of that nature. Would you object if it was banned in those places only, where the reason is obvious: security? a wiseman once said: 'Don’t argue with idiots they will drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience' having spent far too much time tryin to get some common sense thru to mainline and littlefishy on this thread i wish i'd taken that advice. i dunno if you've read thru the entire thread but they've tried to equate yarmulkas with burkhas...that shows the level of ignorance we're dealing with here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainpoint Posted April 18, 2011 #293 Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) You keep making the bogus claim that a religious freedom is been restricted - and have yet to support it with any actual proof. It is a requirement to adhere to culturally appropriate dress standards - just like most of the Middle East insists on. Your double standards are amazing. Where in the Koran does it stipulate the wearing of the Burka. This must be the 5th time I have asked for the evidence. Its getting mighty boring. And yes claiming that France is more restrictive of personal freedom than China is more than laughable - its delusional. Br Cornelius The point is bother cornelius the definition of freedom of religion is not that everyone is required to follow same doctrine but how an individual practices it. People are granted personal freedoms therefore asking for evidence from Quran is irrelevant here. The French women if freely choosing to practice their religion in certain way as long as they havent committed any crimes should be granted this fundamental right. However to criminilize and marginalize them to "protect" them for their own good is simply ridiculous. Edited April 18, 2011 by Mainpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainpoint Posted April 18, 2011 #294 Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) I've a question for you. What if this ban was only in place in certain buildings? By that I mean government buildings, banks, jewellers, military installations and other things of that nature. Would you object if it was banned in those places only, where the reason is obvious: security? Sure if its a secret government installation where you want only authorized persons to enter and one is fearful a spy may get through thats should be ok in my book.. ok peeps I have to work will be back later in the day cheers Edited April 18, 2011 by Mainpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowhive Posted April 18, 2011 #295 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Sure if its a secret government installation where you want only authorized persons to enter and one is fearful a spy may get through thats should be ok in my book.. ok peeps I have to work will be back later in the day cheers And the other places? If I went into a bank with something covering my face, I would be asked to remove it or shown the door. If someone walks in with a veil, they should get identical treatment: asked to remove it, if they refuse (citing religious reasons) they should be thrown out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2011 #296 Share Posted April 18, 2011 The point is bother cornelius the definition of freedom of religion is not that everyone is required to follow same doctrine but how an individual practices it. People are granted personal freedoms therefore asking for evidence from Quran is irrelevant here. The French women if freely choosing to practice their religion is certain way as long as they havent committed any crimes should be granted this fundamental right. However to criminilize and marginalize them to "protect" them for their own good is simply ridiculous. That unfortunately is the way a civilized society works - if you choose to live in it you are agreeing to curtail some of your freedoms for what is perceived the greater social good. All societies do it - without exception. It has chosen the greater good in this case. You have made some strong claims about personal freedom but have really attempted to use western liberal values to proper-gate a philosophy which is totally counter to those values. You have shown your true stripes by siding with a country, China, which values conformity over freedom - rather then defending France which is one of the most Liberal countries in the world. France is defending its value system. No religious freedom has been curtailed because the Burka is a cultural symbol and has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Your arguments are shallow and inconsistent. You should be defending the right to wear Nazi paraphernalia and public nudity as a right - yet all you want to defend is the right to cover your face in public. You do not value personal liberty at all - you are a sham defender of the most iliberal system of thought control in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fish Posted April 18, 2011 #297 Share Posted April 18, 2011 And the other places? If I went into a bank with something covering my face, I would be asked to remove it or shown the door. If someone walks in with a veil, they should get identical treatment: asked to remove it, if they refuse (citing religious reasons) they should be thrown out. that is the case. watch the video that was posted they are not portesting for the right to wear the veil in a bank, they say they will remove it where it is warranted. they are protesing against the law banning it in all places in public which includes outside their front door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 18, 2011 #298 Share Posted April 18, 2011 That unfortunately is the way a civilized society works - if you choose to live in it you are agreeing to curtail some of your freedoms for what is perceived the greater social good. All societies do it - without exception.It has chosen the greater good in this case. You have made some strong claims about personal freedom but have really attempted to use western liberal values to proper-gate a philosophy which is totally counter to those values. You have shown your true stripes by siding with a country, China, which values conformity over freedom - rather then defending France which is one of the most Liberal countries in the world. France is defending its value system. nice post cornelius. No religious freedom has been curtailed because the Burka is a cultural symbol and has absolutely nothing to do with religion. this point has been made several times yet mainline won't respond....why is that? Your arguments are shallow and inconsistent. You should be defending the right to wear Nazi paraphernalia and public nudity as a right - yet all you want to defend is the right to cover your face in public. exactly the point!! You do not value personal liberty at all - you are a sham defender of the most iliberal system of thought control in the world. <stands up and applauds> thread done. argument over. that is the case. watch the video that was posted they are not portesting for the right to wear the veil in a bank, they say they will remove it where it is warranted. they are protesing against the law banning it in all places in public which includes outside their front door. do you think there should be limits on any clothing or should we all be allowed to wear whatever we want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowhive Posted April 18, 2011 #299 Share Posted April 18, 2011 that is the case. watch the video that was posted they are not portesting for the right to wear the veil in a bank, they say they will remove it where it is warranted. they are protesing against the law banning it in all places in public which includes outside their front door. And if you note something (which you can't seem to get) I'm not for the ban outright. Though I do think there are those wearing the veil for the wrong reasons, which I'm against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 18, 2011 #300 Share Posted April 18, 2011 that is the case. watch the video that was posted they are not portesting for the right to wear the veil in a bank, they say they will remove it where it is warranted. they are protesing against the law banning it in all places in public which includes outside their front door. do you think there should be no limits on clothing we wear no matter what others opinion is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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