shadowhive Posted April 14, 2011 #101 Share Posted April 14, 2011 if the women decides for herself to wear it, then it is not opressive. telling her she can't wear it when she wants to is oppressive. If the issue is oppression then it would be better not to oppress anyone. let people wear what they like and make both 'forcing someone to wear' and 'forcing someone not to wear' illegal. I agree with that of course. But the point still stands does it not? so you don't trust people on the phone? or when you hear them on the radio? do blind people distrust everyone? That's different and you know it what about religious reasons? does everything need a reason? what is the resons for a jewish skull cap?what about singing or dancing on the bus, suspicious? Religious reasons are meaningless. If smeone wants to see your face for security, you show them your face, it's that simple. now what if a muslim women uses a flu mask in public? will she get arrested? I'm not even gonna answer that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+HerNibs Posted April 14, 2011 #102 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I agree with that of course. But the point still stands does it not? That's different and you know it Religious reasons are meaningless. If smeone wants to see your face for security, you show them your face, it's that simple. I'm not even gonna answer that That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Nibs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fish Posted April 14, 2011 #103 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I agree with that of course. But the point still stands does it not? so you are saying what is important is how others view something rather than how the wearer views it, and making it illegal is justified on those grounds. many people distrust certain youth clothing, hells angels, punk rockers etc, should we ban dressing like those too? That's different and you know it how is it different, you gave the reason that to communicate you need to see the face. we are communicating yet I cannot see your face, at least I hope that's not your face. Religious reasons are meaningless. they are not menaingless to the person holding the religious view. they may be meaningless to someone who doesn't hold the view. do you see a reason for a jewish skull cap? If smeone wants to see your face for security, you show them your face, it's that simple.we are not talking about showing your face for security reasons - I assume you mean passport control or somehting like that. we are talking about banning it at all times in public.I'm not even gonna answer that Why? do you mean you don't have an answer to the question of what will happen if muslim women start wearing flu masks instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fish Posted April 14, 2011 #104 Share Posted April 14, 2011 against the law to identify yourself? citizen schools the police in the law. "what's your name?" "it doesn't matter what my name is" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted April 14, 2011 #105 Share Posted April 14, 2011 you're doing just fine. Apparently not since against the law to identify yourself??? you still insist that identifying yourself is somehow optional. Sane people are always trying to reach the compromise, but the compromise can be made only if both sides are making concessions. Expecting only one side to make them implies you believe they’re weak, stupid or both. I’m neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowhive Posted April 14, 2011 #106 Share Posted April 14, 2011 so you are saying what is important is how others view something rather than how the wearer views it, and making it illegal is justified on those grounds. many people distrust certain youth clothing, hells angels, punk rockers etc, should we ban dressing like those too? It's strange how you get that from what I said. I dress as 'one f those people' and that's my personal choice. However, if I wore something that covered my face, I'd be more then happy to take it off if someone wanted me to (bar my glasses which I need for sight). Wanna know what I think? I think a religion has no place telling people what to wear/what not to wear to begin with. how is it different, you gave the reason that to communicate you need to see the face. we are communicating yet I cannot see your face, at least I hope that's not your face. What I mean is when you talk face to face with somene. If someone purposely covers their face, it makes communication difficult. How can you tell if they're smiling? Frowning? etc they are not menaingless to the person holding the religious view. they may be meaningless to someone who doesn't hold the view. do you see a reason for a jewish skull cap? Look, if someone wants to see your face, you SHOW THEM YOUR FACE. How is that difficult to understand? Is that such a hard concept? A cap is different, it doesn't conceal the face one bit, so weather it's meaningless or not is different entirely. we are not talking about showing your face for security reasons - I assume you mean passport control or somehting like that. we are talking about banning it at all times in public. And I said (at least three times) that the ban is wrong, or did you chose to ignore it? Why? do you mean you don't have an answer to the question of what will happen if muslim women start wearing flu masks instead. No, what I mean is this (since you insist). A muslim woman wears a veil is different from a muslim woman wearing a flu mask. One is religious and serves no practical purpose, the other protects from disease. Do you see the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fish Posted April 14, 2011 #107 Share Posted April 14, 2011 you still insist that identifying yourself is somehow optional. absolutely. with obvious exceptions. Sane people are always trying to reach the compromise, but the compromise can be made only if both sides are making concessions. Expecting only one side to make them implies you believe they’re weak, stupid or both. I’m neither. but you are expecting the person who wants to wear the veil to make concessions, whereas the one not wearing the viel is not making any concessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted April 14, 2011 #108 Share Posted April 14, 2011 absolutely. with obvious exceptions. I’m looking forward to the day when you will grow up and start living you own life. You will do everything with absolutely no need to identify yourself. Sure you will. Because YouTube will tell you how. But I don't feel sorry for your parents that will have to support you until the day you get in touch with reality, since your attitude is product of their upbringing. but you are expecting the person who wants to wear the veil to make concessions, whereas the one not wearing the viel is not making any concessions. No, I expect the person with anything on their head, and I don’t ****en care what and why is that on their head, because it’s their damn problem, to remove that thing when they are talking to me. I'm colossally annoyed with pricks that don't remove the sunglasses when communicating, for example. I don't think there should be law against shades, but it should be explained with some help of crayons and YouTube it's so damn rude and childish to hide while making interaction. More than half of people in this thread – including me – keep repeating that banning any kind of clothing is wrong, but that we are disturbed by masked people. Which part of that you don’t understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fish Posted April 14, 2011 #109 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I dress as 'one f those people' and that's my personal choice. However, if I wore something that covered my face, I'd be more then happy to take it off if someone wanted me to (bar my glasses which I need for sight).ok, but you are projecting your own wills and wont's onto others and expect they should behave in the way you would behave.Wanna know what I think? I think a religion has no place telling people what to wear/what not to wear to begin with. people who WANT to wear the veil aren't being told to wear it, they are wearing it because they want to wear it. catholic church tells people not to wear condoms, there is no legislating against that. I am looking for a reason for this law, and there isn't a justifiable one. it seems targetted against islam.What I mean is when you talk face to face with somene. If someone purposely covers their face, it makes communication difficult. How can you tell if they're smiling? Frowning? etcthis isn't a reason to legislate against it.Look, if someone wants to see your face, you SHOW THEM YOUR FACE. How is that difficult to understand? Is that such a hard concept?if someone demanded to see my face i'd be very suspicious, perhaps we need legislation against all these suspicious demands to see faces.And I said (at least three times) that the ban is wrong, or did you chose to ignore it?I am lloking for a legitimate reason for this ban. i don't see one. therefore I conclude that it is discrimatory, and people who justify it seem to be searching for reasons to justify it.No, what I mean is this (since you insist). A muslim woman wears a veil is different from a muslim woman wearing a flu mask. One is religious and serves no practical purpose, the other protects from disease. Do you see the difference?I see a difference, but how will this law deal with it? it will allow people to conceal their faces with a flu mask, but prosecute muslims who conceal their faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fish Posted April 14, 2011 #110 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Which part of that you don’t understand?I don't understand where you fear comes from, you're obviously not a bigot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowhive Posted April 14, 2011 #111 Share Posted April 14, 2011 ok, but you are projecting your own wills and wont's onto others and expect they should behave in the way you would behave. I don't have a clue what you're saying. people who WANT to wear the veil aren't being told to wear it, they are wearing it because they want to wear it. catholic church tells people not to wear condoms, there is no legislating against that. I am looking for a reason for this law, and there isn't a justifiable one. it seems targetted against islam. Most of the time that 'choice' comes from being told to do so and you can't exactly ask can you? It probably is, but what do you expect? Islam targets 'the West' constantly. Even the ones that live $here do so. this isn't a reason to legislate against it. I think you missed the point I was trying to make if someone demanded to see my face i'd be very suspicious, perhaps we need legislation against all these suspicious demands to see faces. Considering the association with Islam and terrorists, I don't think the suspicsion is that surprising. I am lloking for a legitimate reason for this ban. i don't see one. therefore I conclude that it is discrimatory, and people who justify it seem to be searching for reasons to justify it. Never said it wasn't I see a difference, but how will this law deal with it? it will allow people to conceal their faces with a flu mask, but prosecute muslims who conceal their faces. Simple because the two things are different. Police with riot squad helmets conceal their faces. Motorcyclists conceal their faces. Welders conceal their faces. The difference is those people have a practical reason for doing so. A flu mask is a practical reason as well. There is no practical reason for wearing a veil whatsoever. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fish Posted April 14, 2011 #112 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I’m looking forward to the day when you will grow up and start living you own life. You will do everything with absolutely no need to identify yourself. Sure you will. Because YouTube will tell you how. But I don't feel sorry for your parents that will have to support you until the day you get in touch with reality, since your attitude is product of their upbringing. you stated that it was illegal not to identify yourself in public. the video shows that the police cannot just come up to you and demand identification, they would need probable cause. maybe its the law in croatia, but I'm sure in most countries they cannot do that without probable cause. I think I made the point clearly, no need for vitriol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minera Posted April 14, 2011 #113 Share Posted April 14, 2011 You know, I have spoken to many muslims and one particular friend has advised me that the wearing of the veil is a choice of the woman herself so that she can't help those that are weak not be tempted to sin. However, given that the very wearing of the veil is tempting so many souls into expressions of anger, fear and resentment isn't the original purpose then null and void? Sin is sin right? I sincerely do not wish to offend but reality check please: western world western values versus eastern world eastern values where is the middle ground the MUTUAL respect? I would not envision entering a strict Muslim country and offending the citizens by going around without the veil so ... Does it hold the same for the men??Why are they covering their faces? Looking at an attractive MAN can also lead to sin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainpoint Posted April 14, 2011 #114 Share Posted April 14, 2011 What France has done is despicable. Just because Sarkozys wife likes to run around nude does not mean there are not women out there that want to wear clothes. To protest for the sake of personal freedom and liberties all people of different backgrounds go there and wear a veil in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 15, 2011 #115 Share Posted April 15, 2011 What France has done is despicable. Just because Sarkozys wife likes to run around nude does not mean there are not women out there that want to wear clothes. have you made any comments about the way that women are treated in saudi arabia or iran or yemen? have you made any comments about how women are viewed by islam? about how women have to cover up but men don't? about how this practice is only carried out by a very small minority of extremist muslims? or is it only france's actions that you view as despicable? which is worse? sharia law or the burkha ban? To protest for the sake of personal freedom and liberties all people of different backgrounds go there and wear a veil in public. lol!! complete insanity!! how about everyone drawing a cartoon of the prophet muhammed - that would be a protest for the sake of personal liberty. man you have everything seriously ass-backwards. Does it hold the same for the men??Why are they covering their faces? Looking at an attractive MAN can also lead to sin... no-one will answer your point minera...i've asked the same question several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 15, 2011 #116 Share Posted April 15, 2011 (edited) have you made any comments about the way that women are treated in saudi arabia or iran or yemen? have you made any comments about how women are viewed by islam? about how women have to cover up but men don't? about how this practice is only carried out by a very small minority of extremist muslims? or is it only france's actions that you view as despicable? which is worse? sharia law or the burkha ban? lol!! complete insanity!! how about everyone drawing a cartoon of the prophet muhammed - that would be a protest for the sake of personal liberty. man you have everything seriously ass-backwards. no-one will answer your point minera...i've asked the same question several times. Its because the Burka comes from a culture of extreme patriarchy. In such cultures women are very much looked on as chattles and the Burka is protecting your chattles from others. It maybe culturally ingrained, but that doesn't make it right or fair on women. The very concept of leading men astray is laughable and expects a very low standard of behaviour from men. In countries where its imposed thats exactly the sort of behaviour you see in men towards women. These are Medieval traditions which no longer have any place in Europe - stamp them out. Br Cornelius Edited April 15, 2011 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 15, 2011 #117 Share Posted April 15, 2011 These are Medieval traditions which no longer have any place in Europe - stamp them out. absolutely. we've progressed past this sort of thing...and it's time that the arab / muslim world did the same. unfortunately some so-called 'leftists' in the west can't seem to get past their 'revolutionary' zeal directed at their own governments and so seem to automatically side with anyone whose culture / traditions are opposed to those of the west. so kudos to you for actually thinking the issues thru cornelius...i'm a creature of the left tho my opposition to what i percieve as basically fascism within Islamist thinking tends to see me characterised as some sort of far-right reactionary these days. oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted April 15, 2011 #118 Share Posted April 15, 2011 I don't understand where you fear comes from, you're obviously not a bigot. I certainly hope I’m not a bigot, but I’m not naive either. Extreme forms of religions (notice it’s a plural there, religions) are dangerous. They usually command their adherents to perform various aggressive conquests, always insist on their monopoly on truth and the reasoning with them is futile since they don’t use logic to make conclusions, they have their conclusions defined in advance. If that doesn’t make you cautious, then you have a serious problem with self-defence mechanism. Ghandi approach doesn’t work in cases when your invader wants you dead. If you don’t believe me the fanatical Wahabis want you either converted to their specific form of Islam either dead, inform yourself. They’re not ashamed of that, their rabid hatred is all over the internet. There’re huge differences between particular interpretations of Islam and while I have absolutely no problem with usual ones, fanatical extremists, those who impose themselves so aggressively, worry me. A lot more since I’ve discovered people like you, who will stand on their side just to spite their own system. One day, you might miss that system that annoys you today. you stated that it was illegal not to identify yourself in public. the video shows that the police cannot just come up to you and demand identification, they would need probable cause. maybe its the law in croatia, but I'm sure in most countries they cannot do that without probable cause. I think I made the point clearly, no need for vitriol. I didn’t watch that video and I don’t intend to. Ridiculous situation in your country is amusing people all around the world and I simply have no heart to watch your useless police embarrass themselves once more. Yes, Croatia has such laws, such traditions and such common sense applied. It will stay that way, if someone doesn't like that they are free not to look in our direction. Immigrants have to learn the language before obtaining citizenship, by the way, and every-****en-one has to have a photo of their tempting, lustprovoking, bare head taken. So that people who work on issuing identity cards can m********e on them until they drop on the floor. Which is why they can somehow restrain their animal urges while taking fingerprints, also mandatory for every human being. Furniture and home appliances don't have to identify themselves, but we are so insensitive we refuse to accept some women are anything else but human beings. Not cattle. Not furniture. Not pieces of tempting meat. Sorry, but it's impossible not to make fun of that ridiculous upside-down interpretation of freedom. You keep fighting on the internet, against the order that keeps your computer plugged in working power grid, because once sharia overthrows the last remnants of your sovereignty, you won’t get to talk about anything else but how great their notion of god is. A notion of god, not god itself, since I’m very sure no human is able to grasp what god is. If there was no need for vitriol, I wouldn’t spray it around. But there is. You are agitating for people who don’t like you, don’t want you, don’t understand you and on top of it all, believe there’s a god that commanded so. Am I coming through? They are not willing to make any concessions, since they chose to believe they are commanded not to make them. They won’t say thank you for sticking up for us, it’s not the way it works in their universe. The less you resist, sooner they’ll come after you, and since you don’t want any police to interfere with their human rights, you’ll lose yours. It’s that simple. Western strive for ideal democracy is being used as a tool against itself. I’m willing to die for certain ideals, believe it or not, but I’m not willing to commit suicide just because some religious nut has delusions about world domination. That boy in Spain, that expects his peers and teachers not to mention word “ham” in class, because it offends him? Same agenda, same sect, same methods, same finances. We’re not talking about pious people here. But the burkha on European streets should not be banned for two reasons. One is the freedom of personal choice, even the personal choice to depersonalise yourself. Other reason is educational. Watch and learn what happens when profit is the only measure of things. If you wish to discuss any of very real and important political and social aspects I’ve mentioned above, I’ll find some time, but I won’t bother anymore with flu masks, “I won’t breathe until I turn blue if you don’t give me anarchy now” attitude and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted April 15, 2011 #119 Share Posted April 15, 2011 absolutely. we've progressed past this sort of thing...and it's time that the arab / muslim world did the same. unfortunately some so-called 'leftists' in the west can't seem to get past their 'revolutionary' zeal directed at their own governments and so seem to automatically side with anyone whose culture / traditions are opposed to those of the west. so kudos to you for actually thinking the issues thru cornelius...i'm a creature of the left tho my opposition to what i percieve as basically fascism within Islamist thinking tends to see me characterised as some sort of far-right reactionary these days. oh well. oh well over here too I actually like when people label me, and since I have been labeled everything by now, I use that as guidance system... you take labels and see what weekly average is, I think I'm smack middle this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 15, 2011 #120 Share Posted April 15, 2011 great post helen... A lot more since I’ve discovered people like you, who will stand on their side just to spite their own system. ain't that the truth. these types are far more dangerous than any islamist nutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 15, 2011 #121 Share Posted April 15, 2011 oh well over here too I actually like when people label me, and since I have been labeled everything by now, I use that as guidance system... you take labels and see what weekly average is, I think I'm smack middle this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 15, 2011 #122 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should have freedom of religious choice (even though I despise organised religion). Certain forms of Christianity/Judism and Islam would seek to impose a single view of the world - since that would remove my freedom of religious expression it its totally unacceptable. The Burka is simply a symbol of that extremist form of religion which is unaccpatable. Show me where in the Koran it is mandated. Last time I looked France was a proudly secular state. Its culture is secularism. The Burka comes from an extreme religious culture and is not acceptable in secular France - if you don't like that then please return to the culture where it is acceptable. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted April 15, 2011 #123 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should have freedom of religious choice (even though I despise organised religion). Certain forms of Christianity/Judism and Islam would seek to impose a single view of the world - since that would remove my freedom of religious expression it its totally unacceptable. The Burka is simply a symbol of that extremist form of religion which is unaccpatable. Show me where in the Koran it is mandated. Last time I looked France was a proudly secular state. Its culture is secularism. The Burka comes from an extreme religious culture and is not acceptable in secular France - if you don't like that then please return to the culture where it is acceptable. Br Cornelius i actually don't despise religion...i find them all fascinating...i've studied them all to varying degrees.... i just don't like them being used for political purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainpoint Posted April 15, 2011 #124 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should have freedom of religious choice (even though I despise organised religion). Certain forms of Christianity/Judism and Islam would seek to impose a single view of the world - since that would remove my freedom of religious expression it its totally unacceptable. The Burka is simply a symbol of that extremist form of religion which is unaccpatable. Show me where in the Koran it is mandated. Last time I looked France was a proudly secular state. Its culture is secularism. The Burka comes from an extreme religious culture and is not acceptable in secular France - if you don't like that then please return to the culture where it is acceptable. Br Cornelius nope you have got it all wrong the point is about personal liberties. if someone wants to wear certain type of clothing I see no problem with that. I was seeing a segment the other day some of these women are actually french women who are single and have converted to Islam. I see making french women wear little or no clothing as a sign of oppression. I personally have no problem wearing a veil as protest to support these women rights and liberties even though I am a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainpoint Posted April 15, 2011 #125 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Another interesting aspect of this story is that these women number a meagre few hundred and they had not committed any crimes before. There have been no studies linking any societal crimes to these women who are doing this out of their own free will. Yet you see false media propaganda to make up false premises to support this law. This law was crafted out of nothing but hate and extremism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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