Woman in face veil detained

[Guest]

Mainpoint you have completely dodged my point about dress codes been culturally specific - and I suspect it is because you have no reasonable argument against it.

You are not prepared to say that culturally specific dress codes are unacceptable in the muslim world - but you are prepared to make such a statement about Europe.

Frankly you are just defending a outmoded cultural value system which has been deemed marginally acceptable in Europe. Good luck on that one.

Br Cornelius

[ships-cat]

If religious leaders were not set to the most rigid interpretation of Islam, which comes from Saudi Arabia and insists on including their tribal customs in the religion, such laws would be completely out of question....

<sigh>

Mohammed grew up in (geographical) Saudi Arabia. He integrated his tribal customs into his political/military system of governance/leadership, and ultimately into the Koran and the Hadiths.

The Saudi's are not extremists.. they are simply devout Muslims following the original teachings of their prophet, as revealed in their religious scriptures.

The Saudi's are not 'extremists'.. they are the true muslims. Any other group diverging from the Wahannabi philosophy are just wishy-washy liberals. (A bit like an extreme case of our dear own Church of England, who's bishops sometimes seem to be positively embarrassed at the idea of Jesus and God)

THAT is the unspoken truth we are facing in the 21st century. Deal with it.

meow purr

meow purr

[Guest]

<sigh>

Mohammed grew up in (geographical) Saudi Arabia. He integrated his tribal customs into his political/military system of governance/leadership, and ultimately into the Koran and the Hadiths.

The Saudi's are not extremists.. they are simply devout Muslims following the original teachings of their prophet, as revealed in their religious scriptures.

The Saudi's are not 'extremists'.. they are the true muslims. Any other group diverging from the Wahannabi philosophy are just wishy-washy liberals. (A bit like an extreme case of our dear own Church of England, who's bishops sometimes seem to be positively embarrassed at the idea of Jesus and God)

THAT is the unspoken truth we are facing in the 21st century. Deal with it.

meow purr

meow purr

Can you just point out where it stipulates a Burka in the Koran - it maybe there as I am not overly familiar with the text, but I would be very surprised if it was.

Br Cornelius

[Mainpoint]

I have.

But you'll have to search for links yourself, since you don't sound like someone I would like to do favours.

So, they do it all the time in Egypt (a UM member told us about it, not only criminals in western sense of the word, it was hilarious to read about adulterers using burkhas to sneak into and out of lover’s house too), a number of news reports from Pakistan, Afghanistan and I think Saudi Arabia where terrorists disguised by burkhas blew themselves up.

If those people insist on every single tiny detail of their culture to be applied in Europe, I see no reason why they’d drop the misuse of veil for criminal purposes, since that’s what they do at home.

Edit:

Damn, I forgot one more important aspect.

Sorry, my brain is not really working today.

So, any western criminal will be more than happy to use the burkha as hiding place. I know I would I was a criminal. “Iiiiii! Infidel!”, police backs off and your problem is solved.

Actually, a burkha is far more practical choice than bursting into bank with motorcycle helmet on or those plastic masks, it feels better and gives you more freedom to move, and it can be made out of organic cotton!

so you are saying as a former criminal it would be your preferred disguise. Do your homework in the end these people got caught! burka did not help them at all. Ideal criminals would choose to blend in rather than stick out.

that just proves my point!

[Mainpoint]

Mainpoint you have completely dodged my point about dress codes been culturally specific - and I suspect it is because you have no reasonable argument against it.

You are not prepared to say that culturally specific dress codes are unacceptable in the muslim world - but you are prepared to make such a statement about Europe.

Frankly you are just defending a outmoded cultural value system which has been deemed marginally acceptable in Europe. Good luck on that one.

Br Cornelius

There is no strict dress code in France. If there is an official dress code please enlighten us.

[Helen of Annoy]

<sigh>

Mohammed grew up in (geographical) Saudi Arabia. He integrated his tribal customs into his political/military system of governance/leadership, and ultimately into the Koran and the Hadiths.

The Saudi's are not extremists.. they are simply devout Muslims following the original teachings of their prophet, as revealed in their religious scriptures.

The Saudi's are not 'extremists'.. they are the true muslims. Any other group diverging from the Wahannabi philosophy are just wishy-washy liberals. (A bit like an extreme case of our dear own Church of England, who's bishops sometimes seem to be positively embarrassed at the idea of Jesus and God)

THAT is the unspoken truth we are facing in the 21st century. Deal with it.

meow purr

meow purr

mmm... sounds agnostic. The Church of England, of course.

So it’s Wahannabi... I was wondering how it’s spelled.

Look, I definitely am not an expert in Islam, but I’ve noticed even Wahaetc. people are not agreeing on every interpretation. I’d rather deal with their aggression with a bit of hope, that someday in future we could all together become cool as... Buddhists?

Now someone is going to pop up with some Buddhist dirty laundry and crush my faith in humanity.

[Helen of Annoy]

so you are saying as a former criminal it would be your preferred disguise. Do your homework in the end these people got caught! burka did not help them at all. Ideal criminals would choose to blend in rather than stick out.

that just proves my point!

No, I said “if I was a criminal”. Which I’m not and I was not. Looks like you forgot to do your English homework. Or I got that conditional mood of verbs wrong.

So, what do you think of Egyptian adulterers running around in burkhas? It sounds so French of them

And what was that point of yours? That masked people are never criminals? Beyond doubt and above suspicion? Interesting. Is it some parapsychological attribute or you do have an actual point to share?

[Mainpoint]

No, I said "if I was a criminal". Which I'm not and I was not. Looks like you forgot to do your English homework. Or I got that conditional mood of verbs wrong.

So, what do you think of Egyptian adulterers running around in burkhas? It sounds so French of them

And what was that point of yours? That masked people are never criminals? Beyond doubt and above suspicion? Interesting. Is it some parapsychological attribute or you do have an actual point to share?

sorry my bad re you being a criminal I read your post wrong

No my point is not that people in burkas dont commit crimes, my point is wearing a burka is not the preferred method adopted by criminals nor it is effective. Therefore there is no basis for any concern for security that someone raised earlier.

[+HerNibs]

Gunman dressed in burka and sunglasses

Woman who disguised herself in burka jailed

Suicide bombers in burkas

Cleric tries to flee siege

Burka-disguised man in jewellery raid

Pakisan arrests German militant disguised in burka

Here's a few.

Nibs

[Mainpoint]

Gunman dressed in burka and sunglasses

Woman who disguised herself in burka jailed

Suicide bombers in burkas

Cleric tries to flee siege

Burka-disguised man in jewellery raid

Pakisan arrests German militant disguised in burka

Here's a few.

Nibs

see the technique isnt so successful.

[Helen of Annoy]

Gunman dressed in burka and sunglasses

Woman who disguised herself in burka jailed

Suicide bombers in burkas

Cleric tries to flee siege

Burka-disguised man in jewellery raid

Pakisan arrests German militant disguised in burka

Here's a few.

Nibs

Thank you, Nibs.

Just what I needed before bed. I’ll dream of Pink Panther in burkha.

[Little Fish]

Keep your religious expression to your private sphere and if you want to wear a culturally specific garment - do it in the culture which accepts it - which isn't France.

so is the jewish skull cap banned in public in france?

[Helen of Annoy]

so is the jewish skull cap banned in public in france?

No. Neither is Muslim traditional skull cap. Because you can’t cram Pink Panther in it.

I'm off to bed now, seriously, please stop waking me up with b****ing and moaning.

[Little Fish]

That's all well and good but how is the Police Force and Security personnel in banks and shopping centres supposed to know it is one of these innocent few hundred women behind the veil/burqa - unless of course they ask these ladies to remove the veil to confirm their identity? Which they would then be obliged to do every time they came across one

in banks you could make it a requirement not to wear a veil, similar to motorbike helmets, but the law bans the veil in public at all times. that is the difference. the law is clealry not meant to ban the veil for the security of the banks.

- then the ladies would cry "harassment" or worse their male guardian would claim dishonour because the woman may be speaking to a male security guard and raising her veil dutifully in public in a bank

this is where you have let your imagination run away with you.

How do you fine someone for speeding if you can't prove it was them driving - we actually had a case just like that in South Australia where a Muslim lady insulted a police officer and then used as her defense that it wasn't actually her and stated emphatically the he couldn't prove it was her because she was wearing a veil! It was hilarious !!!

if you have been caught speeding then you have to identify yourself. you sign a ticket and that is your identification. a visual identification of your face could still be disuputed by the speeder, but this is all nonsense anyway because a police officer requires identification if he has probable cause to arrest or fine you. the issue here is that the veil is being banned in public at all times, so clearly it is not being banned for the purpose of catching speeders.

How do you know the person driving the vehicle even has a valid drivers license? when the license photo is just a set of eyes in a veil? There was actually a case like that too - a muslim woman wanted to have her drivers license photo taken WITH THE VEIL ON.

then that is not a photo identification, same as a photo with a balaclava it would not be allowed, i somehow think this story is nonsense propaganda. this is about banning the veil in public at all times, so clearly nothing to do with no veils on photo ids.

There is no hate or extremism here it is a matter of public safety, people in any community have a right to know who it is they are dealing with when that person is in their proximity.

you don't have that right, nobody is banning flu masks or motorbike helmets.

We have "Most Wanted" posters and news alerts all the time to protect citizens and track down criminals, how is anyone supposed to know that NO. 1 on the most wanted list for murder isn't blithely wandering around in a burqa with their hand on their crotch to immitate a "feminine" voice?

so why don't these outlaws just wear flu masks then?

[Little Fish]

No. Neither is Muslim traditional skull cap. Because you can’t cram Pink Panther in it.

I'm off to bed now, seriously, please stop waking me up with b****ing and moaning.

nobody asked you to comment, and nobody woke you up, or is minding my own business now verbotten.

[Guest]

There is a dress code in France. It says you can't wear a Burka in public

Br Cornelius

[Little Fish]

There is a dress code in France. It says you can't wear a Burka in public

Br Cornelius

so the law is specifically aimed at islamic culture, rather than at religious/cultural atire in general, and thus discriminatory.

[Guest]

so the law is specifically aimed at islamic culture, rather than at religious/cultural atire in general, and thus discriminatory.

I repeat - where in the Koran does it prescribe the Burka. what religious freedom has been oppressed ?

It is a dress code specific to a small minority of muslim cultures - but they chose to leave the culture and move to another - where that dress code is considered unacceptable. Adapt or return to the place where the Burka is acceptable.

Female genital mutilation is also a cultural practice of many of the same Burka wearing cultures - are you proposing that Europe be tolerant of it out of cultural sensitivity ?

Br Cornelius

Edited April 16, 2011 by Guest

[Little Fish]

I repeat - where in the Koran does it prescribe the Burka. what religious freedom has been oppressed ?

It is a dress code specific to a small minority of muslim cultures - but they chose to leave the culture and move to another - where that dress code is considered unacceptable. Adapt or return to the place where the Burka is acceptable.

the issue is veils, not burquas. it is traditional islamic dress, just as jewish skull caps are. would banning skull caps, saris and turbans be considered acceptable, I don't think so.

it has only become illegal recently, so they didn't move to a different culture where it was illegal, it has since become illegal.

Female genital mutilation is also a cultural practice of many of the same Burka wearing cultures - are you proposing that Europe be tolerant of it out of cultural sensitivity ?

should we be tolerant of jewish male genital mutilation?

[shadowhive]

the issue is veils, not burquas. it is traditional islamic dress, just as jewish skull caps are. would banning skull caps, saris and turbans be considered acceptable, I don't think so.

Those things don't cover up the face, thusly they don't present the same issues as the veil does. Is that somehow unclear?

it has only become illegal recently, so they didn't move to a different culture where it was illegal, it has since become illegal.

The they have a choice: either don't wear the veil (which isn't a requirement of their faith to begin with), they wear it and get arrested, or they move. At the moment the other mainland Europe countries don't have a law like this at the moment (I've heard there's been some debate in some), so they're free to go somewhere where they have freedom. However, if the veil is THAT important, then they can go to a Muslim country and be treated as a second class citizen.

should we be tolerant of jewish male genital mutilation?

Personally, no.

[Guest]

Personally, no.

Indeed circumcision is an unnecessary surgical intervention. I am against it on those grounds. However it is not quite the same as female Genital mutilation which involves destroying the functionality of the clitoris to remove sexual temptation from women. I think we can make a distinction here. It removes the freedom of women to experience full sexual pleasure, where as surprisingly, I have been told - male circumcision enhances male pleasure.

Br Cornelius

[Little Fish]

Those things don't cover up the face, thusly they don't present the same issues as the veil does. Is that somehow unclear?

the issue cannot be face covering since flu masks are not banned in public at all times, the issue cannot be cultural conformity since skull caps, saris and turbans are not banned in public at all times.

The they have a choice: either don't wear the veil (which isn't a requirement of their faith to begin with), they wear it and get arrested, or they move. At the moment the other mainland Europe countries don't have a law like this at the moment (I've heard there's been some debate in some), so they're free to go somewhere where they have freedom. However, if the veil is THAT important, then they can go to a Muslim country and be treated as a second class citizen.

so you acknowledge that the issue is not muslims coming to a new country and breaking existing laws. the issue is having a law imposed on an existing situation and only affecting a single minority group.

[shadowhive]

Indeed circumcision is an unnecessary surgical intervention. I am against it on those grounds. However it is not quite the same as female Genital mutilation which involves destroying the functionality of the clitoris to remove sexual temptation from women. I think we can make a distinction here. It removes the freedom of women to experience full sexual pleasure, where as surprisingly, I have been told - male circumcision enhances male pleasure.

Br Cornelius

I know the difference, hence I'm against both done on children. If you anna get circumcised as a consenting adult, fine, but don't do it to babies who have no say.

the issue cannot be face covering since flu masks are not banned in public at all times, the issue cannot be cultural conformity since skull caps, saris and turbans are not banned in public at all times.

We've been through the flu mask thing.

Flu masks=medical reason to protect the wearer from a contagious disease. Thus it is completely different to a veil that serves only one purpose: to hide the face of the wearer.

Agaiin, the others do not cover the face so there's no reason to ban them.

so you acknowledge that the issue is not muslims coming to a new country and breaking existing laws. the issue is having a law imposed on an existing situation and only affecting a single minority group.

...hasn't that what the issue has always been?

And allow me to be blunt here. This single minority group has been the source of several major terrorism threats which have been national security issues in many western countries. If France feels the need to have this law in place for national security (as well as to stop the oppression of women in this minority group) then that's their right to do so.

In fact, I'm only surprised that they're the only country which has done this so far.

Edited April 16, 2011 by shadowhive

[Little Fish]

Indeed circumcision is an unnecessary surgical intervention. I am against it on those grounds. However it is not quite the same as female Genital mutilation which involves destroying the functionality of the clitoris to remove sexual temptation from women. I think we can make a distinction here.

be consistent with your wording. "circumcision" when jews do it, "genital mutilation" when muslims do it.

It removes the freedom of women to experience full sexual pleasure, where as surprisingly, I have been told - male circumcision enhances male pleasure.

the jury is still out on that one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_effects_of_circumcision

[Little Fish]

We've been through the flu mask thing.

Flu masks=medical reason to protect the wearer from a contagious disease. Thus it is completely different to a veil that serves only one purpose: to hide the face of the wearer.

Agaiin, the others do not cover the face so there's no reason to ban them.

but your reasoning is not sound.

if the reason for banning the veil in public at all times is because it hides the face, then anything that hides the face should be banned.

since flu masks are not banned, the reason for banning "because it hides the face" is false.

...hasn't that what the issue has always been?

certainly when a law is introduced it is imposed on an existing situation, but let's not pretend or imply that the law has always been around and it is the muslims that are coming into a new country and disrespecting the existing law I was responding to this - "but they chose to leave the culture and move to another - where that dress code is considered unacceptable".

And allow me to be blunt here. This single minority group has been the source of several major terrorism threats which have been national security issues in many western countries. If France feels the need to have this law in place for national security (as well as to stop the oppression of women in this minority group) then that's their right to do so.

In fact, I'm only surprised that they're the only country which has done this so far.

How does banning the veil protect against terrorism? if you want to blow yourself up or gun down old ladies you can do it wearing anything. The notion that banning the veil will improve national security or combat terroism is false.

as well as to stop the oppression of women in this minority group)

if the woman wants to wear it then it is not oppressive, it is oppressive to ban her from wearing it.