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Woman in face veil detained


Persia

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It's obvious the law has an unintended consequence that actually strips women of their rights. It does the opposite. For those who choose to wear the burqa to avoid any unwanted sexual diversion between sexes it actually says, "These women are now open for sexual perversion!" Women who do not wish to be open for sexual perversion do not have the choice to conceal themselves, thus thwarting any attempt by the same men you call and I'll quote "vociferous proponents of the veil."

So any woman that doesn't wear the veil are 'open for sexual perversion' are they? I doubt you'd find very many women who'd concur on that.

Your words are trouubling close to hard line muslims. You know, the ones that say women not wearing the full burkha and veil are asking to be raped and deserve to be.

Edited by shadowhive
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Why are women required to uncover their faces during the pilgrimage 'Haj' ?

tetsheri you are missing the point.

The point is some muslim women wear veil some do not its their choice and decision.

In France some French muslim women choose to wear veils. Sarkozy launched a media blitzkrieg, very heavily funded by public francs, to villify these innocent women stirred up emotions of bigotry and had this law passed to make these women do his bidding. What his political motives are a classic example of misdirection. The sad part is a lot of people here are not seeing through the smokescreen. These women just live their lives and this law is plain discriminatory it has no beneficial effect on improving lives of the french people.

Edited by Mainpoint
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Well, this is just my sixpence worth.... no citations... no supporting quotes... pure Cat.

France did not ban the full-face veil to promote womens' rights, anymore than Switzerland voted to ban Minarrets for the sake of architecture.

Both actions where based on a perceived threat to National Security. In this case, we are not talking about terrorists driving aircraft into buildings, or the 'traditional' image of the islamic suicide bomber. Rather, it is somewhat more subtle.

Islam is unique in that its scripture describes methods of conquering other nations. Both in terms of military tactics, and also in terms of internal subversion. Of course, it describes much more.. a philosophy for living.. a standard of morality .. social rules.. and so forth. However, whillst all major religions suggest that it would be a 'good thing' for everyone on the planet to subscribe to them, Islam is the only one that provides a blueprint for accomplishing this in its scriptures.

I would like to think that most Muslims observe the personal issues of their scriptures: the duty to worship Allah, the moral and social codes, and so forth. Like Jews and Christians, most modify the moral codes to accommodate the secular laws of the societies in which they live.

(hands up all devout Christians who steadfastly refuse to do ANY work on a Sunday... including washing the pots and hoovering up .. as the bible dictates ? OK.. you see where I am coming from here ? )

The problem is... SOME follow the Imperialistic elements of the Koran, and seek to enforce Islam on the entire plant (which.. it seems.. WAS Mohammed's actual intent). And - within that minority - are some VERY wealthy and powerful people. The House of Saud spends Billions of dollars each year supporting 'outreach' groups around the world to promote Islamic takeovers of the respective host nations, for example. Not millions.. but Billions.

According to a recent article in the Times of London, over 70% of UK Imams are trained by Saudi training centres: either in the UK, or in Saudi Arabia itself.

In some regards, these Islamic groups ARE the "New Illuminati".

These people are not maniacs. I suspect they would strongly shun terrorist bombings, or attacks like 9/11. Instead... they promote minarets.. or veils. They look for the slow, but steady.. "drip by drip" acceptance of Islamic concepts into the target societies. Recall that it was Mohammed who invented the concept of 'internal subversion'.. the "Fifth column".

They do not seek to overthrow our society by revolution. Instead, the seek.. bit by bit.. to TRANSFORM our societies to conform to Islamic scriptural doctrines. This way, when the final step is taken and an Islamic Republic is delcared in YOUR country, your response is likely to be.. "oh gosh.. they're not so different.. we're following most of their rules ALREADY.. we may as well go along with it".

It is a VERY civilised, and VERY gentle form of colonialism.. possibly uniquely so in the history of our species.

But it ends up with an Islamic republic, under strict Sharia law.

Some may say that the world would be a better place. They have a point.

I would say.. read Hitlers "Mein Kampf".. then read the Koran.. and ask yourself.. where did Hitler get some of his ideas from ? In particular the extermination of Jews, Homosexuals, political dissidents, the mentally "deficient" ( a tricky one to judge under Hitlers rule, I'll grant you..), Gypsies, and so forth.

And THAT is why the French have banned the Burqa, and the Swiss banned minarets. They seem petty reasons to draw a 'line in the sand'... but that line has to be drawn SOMEWHERE.. otherwise you just have an endless series of retreats.

You think I'm delusional and paranoid ?

Well, as it happens, you are right.. but that was just a lucky guess. In regards this PARTICULAR issue... can I ask you a question ?

Did you eat meat today ? Because if you did, and you are in the UK, it is almost CERTAIN that it was Hallal meat...prepared in accordance with Islamic scriptural requirements.

You see, the major supermarkets (ASDA, Tesco, Morrisons, the Co-op) have already "submitted" to Islam.

And therefore, so have you. Without being asked.

"drip... drip... drip... "

meow purr :)

Edited by ships-cat
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Why are women required to uncover their faces during the pilgrimage 'Haj' ?

I don't care about some pilgrimage. That's not the topic. The topic is about creating a law for women's rights that actually has the unintended consequence of stripping them of their universal right to choose what's best for them. The topic here is a new law being created in a European country. Now you can argue all you want about Islam and what happens to women in other muslim nations until your pretty face goes blue.... I don't care because its not the topic.

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We cross-posted acidhead.. read my post prior to yours.

This has nothing to do with womens' rights... although it DOES indirectly protect them.

This is about Islamic Imperialism, and National Identity (if not National Security)

meow purr :)

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So any woman that doesn't wear the veil are 'open for sexual perversion' are they? I doubt you'd find very many women who'd concur on that.

Your words are trouubling close to hard line muslims. You know, the ones that say women not wearing the full burkha and veil are asking to be raped and deserve to be.

You are missing the whole point because you are blinded by your ego and your emotions.

The law states that women who wear clothing must take it off in public.

Thats what the law states.

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You are missing the whole point because you are blinded by your ego and your emotions.

The law states that women who wear clothing must take it off in public.

Thats what the law states.

You bought 'sexual perversion' into it. I'm just asking you to explain why you bought that up. You're yet to do so.

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"drip... drip... drip... "

meow purr :)

your post highlightens the problem the problem is ones perception and how its effect on ones thinking, not facts. You are singling out these poor women because of this. You are showing what one can call Anti-Islamism. I strongly feel like there are anti-semitic laws in europe to protect jews there should now be anti-islamic laws in europe to protect muslims.

To summarize what you wrote was basically muslim are "evil" we should ban the veil.

thats what hitler did he made people bigoted of jews like your post shows with accusing jews of false slander and made is an excuse to oppress them. Just my 2 cents on your post.

Edited by Mainpoint
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Did you eat meat today ? Because if you did, and you are in the UK, it is almost CERTAIN that it was Hallal meat...prepared in accordance with Islamic scriptural requirements.

You see, the major supermarkets (ASDA, Tesco, Morrisons, the Co-op) have already "submitted" to Islam.

And therefore, so have you. Without being asked.

"drip... drip... drip... "

meow purr :)

That's actually creepy, and very very troubling.

I hope these 'subversive takeovers' fail miserablely.

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Well, this is just my sixpence worth.... no citations... no supporting quotes... pure Cat.

France did not ban the full-face veil to promote womens' rights, anymore than Switzerland voted to ban Minarrets for the sake of architecture.

Both actions where based on a perceived threat to National Security. In this case, we are not talking about terrorists driving aircraft into buildings, or the 'traditional' image of the islamic suicide bomber. Rather, it is somewhat more subtle.

Islam is unique in that its scripture describes methods of conquering other nations. Both in terms of military tactics, and also in terms of internal subversion. Of course, it describes much more.. a philosophy for living.. a standard of morality .. social rules.. and so forth. However, whillst all major religions suggest that it would be a 'good thing' for everyone on the planet to subscribe to them, Islam is the only one that provides a blueprint for accomplishing this in its scriptures.

I would like to think that most Muslims observe the personal issues of their scriptures: the duty to worship Allah, the moral and social codes, and so forth. Like Jews and Christians, most modify the moral codes to accommodate the secular laws of the societies in which they live.

(hands up all devout Christians who steadfastly refuse to do ANY work on a Sunday... including washing the pots and hoovering up .. as the bible dictates ? OK.. you see where I am coming from here ? )

The problem is... SOME follow the Imperialistic elements of the Koran, and seek to enforce Islam on the entire plant (which.. it seems.. WAS Mohammed's actual intent). And - within that minority - are some VERY wealthy and powerful people. The House of Saud spends Billions of dollars each year supporting 'outreach' groups around the world to promote Islamic takeovers of the respective host nations, for example. Not millions.. but Billions.

According to a recent article in the Times of London, over 70% of UK Imams are trained by Saudi training centres: either in the UK, or in Saudi Arabia itself.

In some regards, these Islamic groups ARE the "New Illuminati".

These people are not maniacs. I suspect they would strongly shun terrorist bombings, or attacks like 9/11. Instead... they promote minarets.. or veils. They look for the slow, but steady.. "drip by drip" acceptance of Islamic concepts into the target societies. Recall that it was Mohammed who invented the concept of 'internal subversion'.. the "Fifth column".

They do not seek to overthrow our society by revolution. Instead, the seek.. bit by bit.. to TRANSFORM our societies to conform to Islamic scriptural doctrines. This way, when the final step is taken and an Islamic Republic is delcared in YOUR country, your response is likely to be.. "oh gosh.. they're not so different.. we're following most of their rules ALREADY.. we may as well go along with it".

It is a VERY civilised, and VERY gentle form of colonialism.. possibly uniquely so in the history of our species.

But it ends up with an Islamic republic, under strict Sharia law.

Some may say that the world would be a better place. They have a point.

I would say.. read Hitlers "Mein Kampf".. then read the Koran.. and ask yourself.. where did Hitler get some of his ideas from ? In particular the extermination of Jews, Homosexuals, political dissidents, the mentally "deficient" ( a tricky one to judge under Hitlers rule, I'll grant you..), Gypsies, and so forth.

And THAT is why the French have banned the Burqa, and the Swiss banned minarets. They seem petty reasons to draw a 'line in the sand'... but that line has to be drawn SOMEWHERE.. otherwise you just have an endless series of retreats.

You think I'm delusional and paranoid ?

Well, as it happens, you are right.. but that was just a lucky guess. In regards this PARTICULAR issue... can I ask you a question ?

Did you eat meat today ? Because if you did, and you are in the UK, it is almost CERTAIN that it was Hallal meat...prepared in accordance with Islamic scriptural requirements.

You see, the major supermarkets (ASDA, Tesco, Morrisons, the Co-op) have already "submitted" to Islam.

And therefore, so have you. Without being asked.

"drip... drip... drip... "

meow purr :)

For a rare occasion I agree totally with the Cat.

This is a line in the sand moment for Europe, and I suspect it will be followed by many other lines in the sand in many other European countries.

This is a cultural issue about what is culturally acceptable in your own society. France is secular and will impose secularism in the public space because it is a fundamental precept of their culture.

Live with it or return to a country where wearing the Burka is accepted - its that simple.

Br Cornelius

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<snip>

"drip... drip... drip... "

if you are concerned about islam "taking over" by baby steps and launching its sharia law in the middle of the night, then it's most important your state protects personal freedom. sharia law can never take over in a republic that protects personal liberty. a ban on the veil actually makes sharia law more likely, not less likely.

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Live with it or return to a country where wearing the Burka is accepted - its that simple.

and the white french born women who decide to wear the viel? where do they go back to? treblinka?

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We cross-posted acidhead.. read my post prior to yours.

This has nothing to do with womens' rights... although it DOES indirectly protect them.

This is about Islamic Imperialism, and National Identity (if not National Security)

meow purr :)

You are just hating there is no entity known as islamic imperialism you just made it up.

Not just womans rights. It has everything to do with personal rights personal freedoms and liberties. People in france should be free to practice any religion they wisheth.

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You bought 'sexual perversion' into it. I'm just asking you to explain why you bought that up. You're yet to do so.

Yes I did. Women who choose to wear it now have to live a public life of sexual perversion. They do not have a choice anymore.

Thats what the law says. It actually hurts the women it was designed to 'protect'.

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Yes I did. Women who choose to wear it now have to live a public life of sexual perversion. They do not have a choice anymore.

Thats what the law says. It actually hurts the women it was designed to 'protect'.

Explain how showing your face is 'living a life of sexual perversion' because from my experience, most women show their face and don't think that for a heartbeat so why do you suppose Muslim women think that way?

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and the white french born women who decide to wear the viel? where do they go back to? treblinka?

LOL

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your post highlightens the problem the problem is ones perception and how its effect on ones thinking, not facts. You are singling out these poor women because of this. You are showing what one can call Anti-Islamism. I strongly feel like there are anti-semitic laws in europe to protect jews there should now be anti-islamic laws in europe to protect muslims.

To summarize what you wrote was basically muslim are "evil" we should ban the veil.

thats what hitler did he made people bigoted of jews like your post shows with accusing jews of false slander and made is an excuse to oppress them. Just my 2 cents on your post.

How you read that into what ships-cat said shows your own inate persecution complex.

Carry out you religious duties within the strictures of your host nation. You are free to carry on your religion in a manner which conforms with the prevailing social more's of your chosen country.

France is secular and will defend itself against the excessive influence of any religious faction. This is a symbolic message, and I hope you understand the message it is designed to send.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Guest
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France is secular and will defend itself against the excessive influence of any religious faction. This is a symbolic message, and I hope you understand the message it is designed to send.

Br Cornelius

France is democratic and should stay democratic. Everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, religion and expression. I fully support the French women here who are being bullied.

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Explain how showing your face is 'living a life of sexual perversion' because from my experience, most women show their face and don't think that for a heartbeat so why do you suppose Muslim women think that way?

You are a male and from your experiences never feel any sort of sexual desire when engaging in any sort of contact with females?

Are you taking SSRI's(anti-depressants)? If you are on government prescribed drugs this could be why. These drugs lower the testosterone level in males to zero....... no sexual desire.

Edited by acidhead
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and the white french born women who decide to wear the viel? where do they go back to? treblinka?

If they choose to wear the Burka - then at some point they may have to make the difficult choice of moving to a country where that is considered acceptable. It is a matter of personal choice, but all choices have consequences.

Sometimes when an iliberal ideology threatens a Liberal society then it will have to make unfortunate laws to protect itself. This is always the case when preditory ideas are at large. This is why it is illegal to be a Nazi in Germany - or maybe you believe that to be wrong.

Br Cornelius

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France is democratic and should stay democratic. Everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, religion and expression. I fully support the French women here who are being bullied.

Has France made Islam Illegal ?

Br Cornelius

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You are a male and from your experiences never feel any sort of sexual desire?

Are you taking SSRI's(anti-depressants)? If you are on government prescribed drugs this could be why. These drugs lower the testosterone level in males to zero....... no sexual desire.

Before I answer I'd like to point out that is a very opersonal and irrelevent question.

Do I feel sexual desire? Yes, but so does every human being on the planet. Do I see an attractive man or woman that's not wearing a veil, follow them, corner them and act on that desire? No, I do not. Do I look at an attractive person and instantly think what I'll do to them if I could (or vise versa). No, I don't. I have something, it's called self control.

Can you say the same?

Edited by shadowhive
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If they choose to wear the Burka - then at some point they may have to make the difficult choice of moving to a country where that is considered acceptable. It is a matter of personal choice, but all choices have consequences.

Sometimes when an iliberal ideology threatens a Liberal society then it will have to make unfortunate laws to protect itself. This is always the case when preditory ideas are at large. This is why it is illegal to be a Nazi in Germany - or maybe you believe that to be wrong.

Br Cornelius

It is the opposite. This is actually what nazis did they singled out religions other then christianity in germany.

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Has France made Islam Illegal ?

Br Cornelius

Are you saying in the guise of secular ideology France should start adopting Nazi principles of targeting other religions in France and making them illegal?.

Edited by Mainpoint
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let's not kid ourselves, the veil is worn by muslims, banning it is clearly aimed at muslim people. you think it won't be viewed as an attack on islam and muslims amongst neo-nazi and muslim communities because you have a technical argument that the quran does not require the wearing of it?

this is is about whether the state should be discriminating against minorities and whether the state should be telling people what to wear or what not to wear, how orwellian that the state is crushing women's freedom of choice in the name of women's liberty. this is a nazi magnet and nazi energizer and everyone knows it, and from a state that bans the swastika and invented the word liberty.

This is not a “technical” argument. Once you qualify this practice as “Muslim” and compare it to other “religious” practices, then it can only be discussed within the frame of reference you yourself provided.

If however you refer to it as a “cultural” tradition, as the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar did, then the argument of religious discrimination is defunct. I might have agreed with you about a “respect our traditions’ frame of reference, but then we would both have to agree that non Saudi or western women in SA & Iran should be allowed to uncover their hair etc., based on the same principle; and on continues the circular argument.

The origin of the recent emergence of the more fundamentalist trends & practices is to be found in Saudi financing. During the late 1990s a conference was held in Brussels under the auspices of the SA to study ways to prevent the ‘integration’ of second & third generation immigrants to Europe. For some it is a game of political influence & control, but the ones who fall through the cracks are the young people who are fed Wahhabi thought & end up in ‘cultural ghettos”. This is not happening only in Europe, last week there were demonstrations in Cairo in front of the Saudi Embassy denouncing the Saudi financing of the Salafists.

What neo Nazis are you talking about? The Swastika is directly involved in the extermination of millions in WWII ! How can you question or compare the prohibition of the symbol of the Nazi Ideology to the burka?

As for Orwellian control, I would call telling a young woman that she is comparable to a lollipop which, if left uncovered, will attract flies, Orwellian. What liberty or respect is there for either men or women in a situation which depicts men as ‘flies’ (Muslim Brotherhood ad in Cairo), incapable of taking responsibility for, or controlling their sexuality and leaving the responsibility entirely on the women? As a woman, the face veil's message is demeaning and offensive. There is more to a woman than her sexuality.The face veil is not Islamic, it’s Arabian, and both words are not synonymous.

Finally, a little anecdote, Aisha Bent Talha, who was a member of the Prophet’s Sahaba , never covered her face, adorned herself, and used to say that Allah has granted her beauty which she likes to show people so they see how Allah favored her (الأغاني ج 9 38″)

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