Osama Bin Laden Dead

[Space Commander Travis]

What if I posted that 747400 made the kill shot. Do you want the attention? How about being the trophy of a man hunt. Is that for you? Or how about media attention showing your family? How about them do you care if they get caught up in your duty? I do not think so. Your silly. I understand where you are coming from but please complete your thought.

Of course their identity would be kept secret, that's how Special Forces always work, but the fact that they did it, and then were the ones entrusted with proving his identity, and then disposed of the body, surely looks a bit... furtive, at the very elast. I mean, if you'd killed your country's greatest enemy and the greatest enemy of civilisation, surely they'd be careful to prove beyond any doubt that that was who it was. That is all.

[psyche101]

Well, if that is so, then I'm afraid that, to paraphrase someone, the naivety (naivete? It should have a, hold on, naïveté, that's got it, of the people should never be underestimated. Is this really going to put an end to terrorism?! Will it even make the slightest difference to islamic terrorism, let alone any of the many other discontented groups and peoples around the world? Will the absence (supposedly) of bin L make the slightest difference even to Al Q, considering how it's supposed to be organised, Bin L wasn't a commander-in-chief directing operations from a central command bunker, he was a figurehead and an fundraiser as much as anything, and I'd imagine that his martyrdom (particularly as it's now very obvious that it was a premeditated assassination) would be more likely to increase the desire to avenge him, I'd have thought. Sure way to make a saint of him among the faithful.

I think so, he was their Anti Western crusader, the one that the US could not get no matter what, the thorn in the side of the West, Mr Untouchable.

Not any longer. I would hope this slams home that they are falible, and make a huge mistake that will expose them in their blind retribution. As the factions get smaller they will be easier to wipe out. There will always be crazies, but this movement will have suffered a major blow.

They lost, how are they going to explain that to their God?

Edited May 4, 2011 by psyche101

[ExpandMyMind]

Because they have introduced the most inhumane version of Shariah Law ever seen in the country, and for their treatment of women and their direct links with the terrorist organisation Al Qaeda, who also needs be disbanded. This connection was further strengthened by the reported marriage of one of bin Laden's sons to Mullah Omar's daughter. Being such a Taliban scholar, I am surprised that you overlook events like Indian Airlines Flight 814. You might also remember that Mullah Omar reneged on his deal with the Saudis to hand over Osama, so why would the US believe them?

Perhaps you do know more, but from your reply, I would guess that it is self taught

Yet none of what you mention would have been reason enough to invade and occupy a country.

So, with that in mind, why should we remain to continue this perpetual war? Without bin Laden, there would have been no legitimate reason to invade (and actually, the invasion was a MASSIVE stretch of international law. Considering the US provided no evidence that bin Laden was responsible for 9/11, I would even go as far as to say it was in violation of said laws). But that doesn't matter, because bin Laden was never the target. Nor was Sharia Law or anything else you mentioned.

Again, nothing you stated is reason enough to target the Taleban. And in fact, considering that this war we are in creates more enemies than it could even hope to eliminate, the logic behind your reasoning is extremely flawed.

[psyche101]

Of course their identity would be kept secret, that's how Special Forces always work, but the fact that they did it, and then were the ones entrusted with proving his identity, and then disposed of the body, surely looks a bit... furtive, at the very elast. I mean, if you'd killed your country's greatest enemy and the greatest enemy of civilisation, surely they'd be careful to prove beyond any doubt that that was who it was. That is all.

Perhaps they wanted it this way so that nobody could ever trace the body and make some sort of shrine.

Like the man who burned Hitlers remains, these men will take this secret to their graves, and the less who know, the less chance of the location of the body being exposed. If it was advertised you can bet some sickos would be out in boats looking for the corpse.

[psyche101]

Yet none of what you mention would have been reason enough to invade and occupy a country.

So, with that in mind, why should we remain to continue this perpetual war? Without bin Laden, there would have been no legitimate reason to invade (and actually, the invasion was a MASSIVE stretch of international law. Considering the US provided no evidence that bin Laden was responsible for 9/11, I would even go as far as to say it was in violation of said laws). But that doesn't matter, because bin Laden was never the target. Nor was Sharia Law or anything else you mentioned.

Again, nothing you stated is reason enough to target the Taleban. And in fact, considering that this war we are in creates more enemies than it could even hope to eliminate, the logic behind your reasoning is extremely flawed.

I believe the direct ties to Al Qaeda are enough to wipe them out. I also frown upon human rights violations, terrorist training camps, not to mention outright acts of terrorism, like the example I offered, but if you are good with that, then I can see where you are coming from. The way I see it, terrorism is everyones problem, not the person on the plane about to crash.

Fighters and commanders of Afghanistan's Taliban militia committed systematic massacres in recent years while trying to consolidate control over northern and western Afghanistan, according to confidential UN documents made available to Newsday.

The reports, written by United Nations personnel in Afghanistan, say such mass killings were ordered or approved by Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar.

At Yakaolang, as in other such massacres, the Taliban, ethnic Pashtuns of the Sunni sect of Islam, particularly targeted ethnic Hazaras, who belong to the Shiite sect.

"These are the same type of war crimes as were committed in Bosnia" and should be prosecuted in international courts, said a UN official.

LINK

The Taliban say they have killed "Christian missionaries" working in remote northern Afghanistan where the bullet-riddled bodies of six Americans, one German and a British national were found.

Three women were among the group of foreign eye doctors working for the aid organisation International Assistance Mission (IAM), said its executive director Dirk Frans.

"Five men, all American, and three women, an American, German and Brit were killed," Frans told AFP.

Head of Badakhshan provincial police Aqa Noor Kintoz said the group had been lined up and shot in dense forest, according to the testimony of a sole Afghan survivor. The Taliban later claimed responsibility.

LINK

LONDON, September 3, 1998 (AFP) - Afghanistan's Taliban forces massacred thousands of members of an ethnic minority group after capturing the city of Mazar-i-Sharif last month, the Amnesty International human rights group said Thursday.

Amnesty, whose report was based on testimony from local people who said they were eyewitnesses, said: "Taliban guards deliberately and systematically killed thousands of Hazara civilians during the first three days following their military takeover" of the city on August 8.

Link

Should any Taliban require foreign billeting, I guess you will be putting your hand up?

What is the good that the Taliban do that you feel must be upheld? I think a bleeding heart attitude just gives these animals more power.

[pbarosso]

Yet none of what you mention would have been reason enough to invade and occupy a country.

So, with that in mind, why should we remain to continue this perpetual war? Without bin Laden, there would have been no legitimate reason to invade (and actually, the invasion was a MASSIVE stretch of international law. Considering the US provided no evidence that bin Laden was responsible for 9/11, I would even go as far as to say it was in violation of said laws). But that doesn't matter, because bin Laden was never the target. Nor was Sharia Law or anything else you mentioned.

Again, nothing you stated is reason enough to target the Taleban. And in fact, considering that this war we are in creates more enemies than it could even hope to eliminate, the logic behind your reasoning is extremely flawed.

you know, bin laden took credit for the whole thing. you claim the war has created more enemies and his logic is flawed. but its people like you that tried to keep us out of WWII and in this case, RIGHT MAKES EXTREMELY right. its people like you *SNIP - keep it civil!* that think everybody means well and there is no evil in the world. you ignore those that have experienced the evil as if they are somehow disillusioned and you have all the answers. people like you sit back and wait until its tooooo late, when a preemptive strategy saves more lives than being late on the field. then when its too late and pacifists and pussycats like you suddenly realize that our society has been permeated by the enemy and if we only woulda-shoulda-coulda we could have avoided all this. hindsight is always 20/20 and thats all you have. HINDSIGHT. everybody has hindsight, the only problem is you see your own ass with hindsight. hindsight does not tackle problems in the now *SNIP*. strategy and tactics is not your forte, so stop putting on airs as if you are so smart everyone else must just not have the intellectual capacity that you have. typical liberal.

flame out.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Paranoid Android
Don't make this personal ~ PA

[Space Commander Travis]

you know, bin laden took credit for the whole thing. you claim the war has created more enemies and his logic is flawed. but its people like you that tried to keep us out of WWII and in this case, RIGHT MAKES EXTREMELY right. its people like you with pathetic whimpering give peace a chance mottos oozing out of your pores that think everybody means well and there is no evil in the world. you ignore those that have experienced the evil as if they are somehow disillusioned and you have all the answers. people like you sit back and wait until its tooooo late, when a preemptive strategy saves more lives than being late on the field. then when its too late and pacifists and pussycats like you suddenly realize that our society has been permeated by the enemy and if we only woulda-shoulda-coulda we could have avoided all this. hindsight is always 20/20 and thats all you have. HINDSIGHT. everybody has hindsight, the only problem is you see your own ass with hindsight. hindsight does not tackle problems in the now, and judging from your avatar you live in the past and so your posts reflect this counterculture 60's drivel. strategy and tactics is not your forte, so stop putting on airs as if you are so smart everyone else must just not have the intellectual capacity that you have. typical liberal.

flame out.

the best part of that little rant is the penultimate sentence. Really eloquently summarises your argument. "You're a ... liberal.... splutter."

[Space Commander Travis]

the interesting thing, for people who see things in simple us/them, Repub/Dem, Patriot/Liberal, terms, is that it was Obama -the Dem incarnate, the socialist and - to some- the closet Muslim - who authorised, and not only authorised, but watched live, this assassination. This must confuse their world view.

[ExpandMyMind]

pbarosso, that was awesome!

Keep who out of WW2? I'm British so I think you'll find I'm pretty glad the US intervened. That Britian attacked Germany in the first place though (considering all Germany did was invade 'Poland' to recover land taken from them after the Great War - with a German majority population living on the land no less) ? Not so much..

I remember debating with you a couple of years back I think... I'm glad to see the level of intelligence and your use of providing information to present yourself coherently has improved though (slightly).

Oh, and I am NOT a liberal.

I believe the direct ties to Al Qaeda are enough to wipe them out. I also frown upon human rights violations, terrorist training camps, not to mention outright acts of terrorism, like the example I offered, but if you are good with that, then I can see where you are coming from. The way I see it, terrorism is everyones problem, not the person on the plane about to crash.

Should any Taliban require foreign billeting, I guess you will be putting your hand up?

What is the good that the Taliban do that you feel must be upheld? I think a bleeding heart attitude just gives these animals more power.

I don't believe that attacking due to them having links to terrorism is the way to go. If this were the case then I guess you feel that Turkey would be justified in attacking the US for funding the PKK and it's sister group (one of the reasons ties between Iran and Turkey - where both groups operate - have become so close)? Or that the US should have invaded itself due to ties with, wait for it, Al'Qaeda?

I do not enjoy seeing suffering inflicted on a native population by their own rulers though. But still, if we were to invade every country guilty of this then we would currently be in a World War right now (even by tageting one country - Chna). Besides, the US has supported many such regimes guilty of far worse than the Taleban (and indeed has been guilty of far, FAR worse itself); meaning protection of the civilians had nothing to do with the invasion. It still is of little interest to either the British or the Americans.

See, it's sort of like Lybia: I would have liked to have seen Gaddafi dead and gone, but it is basically none of our business.

Change must come from within (just look at the nick of Iraq). It cannot be forced, and definitely not by a group with clear ulterior motives.

Edited May 4, 2011 by expandmymind

[Habitat]

It doesn't look like the US government wanted Bin Laden alive and on trial, does it ? That would have looked a whole lot better than what transpired. And of course Bin Laden wouldn't have any intelligence to yield up, either, would he ? This is gonna be difficult to sell as a success, as the dust settles.

[MstrMsn]

*no need to make this insulting ~ PA* Why did they burn the body? No pictures? Who were the soldiers involved in the raid? These are all questions that should make you wonder. And it just so happens that you guys have an election coming up. Sound suspicious? It should.

As Moon Princess said, he was buried in the ocean (not burned).

However, it was Seal team 6. Good luck trying to find out exactly who is on that team.

Also, as far as the election goes, it's still too far off for anyone to consider this as being helpful. The president still has enough time to lower his approval rating and ot get re-elected.

So, now I ask... why does this sound suspicious? Or are you just a PCN?

[Q24]

you know, bin laden took credit for the whole thing.

I keep seeing this said on the thread, though it is not so cut and dry as some believe.

The complication is that bin Laden twice denied responsibility for involvement in the 9/11 attack. The purpose of a terrorist attack (as opposed to war) is to make a political statement. It does not make much sense for a group to plan and carry out a terrorist attack and then distance themselves from responisbility - it defeats the point.

The suggestion follows that bin Laden was telling the truth below: -

"Following the latest explosions in the United States, some Americans are pointing the finger at me, but I deny that because I have not done it. The United States has always accused me of these incidents which have been caused by its enemies. Reiterating once again, I say that I have not done it, and the perpetrators have carried this out because of their own interest.

…

The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the U.S. system, but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology could survive."

Sep. 16th, 2001

And then: -

“I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act.”

Sep. 28th, 2001

Additionally the U.S. failed to present evidence of bin Laden's involvement in the attack when the Taliban offered to hand him over for trial on this basis.

And then in 2006 an FBI spokesman stated: -

"In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11."

Further, there is reason to doubt authenticity of the 2004 bin Laden 'confession' videotape which did not come until over three years after the attack... judging by the above statement, the FBI certainly doubted it for some reason.

What we can say for sure is there has never been a legal case made or trial held as to bin Laden's responsibility for the attack. In the civilised world this is the normal procedure - innocent until proven guilty in a court of law - except apparently in this case. What we actually have, is more akin to a witch-hunt.

Did bin Laden really help mastermind this attack or was he in fact the scapegoat, held in confinement in Pakistan to fuel the 'War on Terror'?

[Space Commander Travis]

As Moon Princess said, he was buried in the ocean (not burned).

However, it was Seal team 6. Good luck trying to find out exactly who is on that team.

Also, as far as the election goes, it's still too far off for anyone to consider this as being helpful. The president still has enough time to lower his approval rating and ot get re-elected.

So, now I ask... why does this sound suspicious? Or are you just a PCN?

PCN?

Why does any of this sound suspicious? Let me see.... They launch a military operation into a country that they were not (officially) in a state of hostilities with, without that country's government knowing ... They deliberately (it very much looks) set out to assassinate "Bin Laden", rather than trying to take him alive (and, as remarked above, would that not have been the greatest intelligence coup of the century so far? ) (The president watching live as it happens, so he was well aware of exactly what was going on) .. the military were responsible for the disposal of the body, without giving anyone else a chance for any independent verification or any kind of post-mortem.

And they really expect that their excuse for disposing of the body with such haste, that they wanted to respect Islamic custom, will wash? That that would mollify people who might otherwise be angry about it?

[Beckys_Mom]

I just did not expect him so obviously in Pakistan.

Actually, when you think about it, it was a very smart move on Bin Ladins behalf to hide out in the last place they would be likely to look...Most figured he had fled far out in a secret hideout...

[Beckys_Mom]

, and judging from your avatar you live in the past and so your posts reflect this counterculture 60's drivel.

And your avatar tells us what?...

[Beckys_Mom]

Well, there are some allegations he was living under the nose in full view and support by the Pakistani. Which might explain how he survived so many years. That's if he was still alive.

Yes maybe the Pakistani goverment did know he was there, but not with their support...Maybe under threat ( personal threat) <-- that's another IF

[Beckys_Mom]

Why did they burn the body? No pictures?

The head of the CIA said - that a pic of Bin Ladins body will most likely be released soon...but the footage of the actual raid - wont

Edited May 4, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[Beckys_Mom]

Oh, and I am NOT a liberal.

Oh and...I'm NOT a mother!!

[MstrMsn]

PCN?

Why does any of this sound suspicious? Let me see.... They launch a military operation into a country that they were not (officially) in a state of hostilities with, without that country's government knowing ... They deliberately (it very much looks) set out to assassinate "Bin Laden", rather than trying to take him alive (and, as remarked above, would that not have been the greatest intelligence coup of the century so far? ) (The president watching live as it happens, so he was well aware of exactly what was going on) .. the military were responsible for the disposal of the body, without giving anyone else a chance for any independent verification or any kind of post-mortem.

And they really expect that their excuse for disposing of the body with such haste, that they wanted to respect Islamic custom, will wash? That that would mollify people who might otherwise be angry about it?

Well, let's see, if the orders were to take him alive, the Seals would have done that. The fact that Obama is president, and Osama was killed makes more people think that they may have disobeyed orders. Whatever.

The Pakistani government wasn't made aware of the operation for multiple reasons, them being involved in hiding him is one of those reasons, and another is that the actions were directed against people that the Pakistani government has denied were in their country. So, oh well. (plus, we have US Military in Pakistan as a jump point into areas of Afghanistan, so it's not like we "invaded").

So, you would rather the US keep Osama's body, disrepescting Islamic beliefs? Did you forget that less than 24 hours after Saddam was hugn, he was buried? And many people were claiming that wasn't him and that it was too fast.

Angry about what? That they disposed of the body? Or that if they kept the body, they would upset Muslims? Please be more specific.

So yeah... if you think it's suspicious, then you either know nothing about the military, where we are operating bases out of, or of anything that the government is doing.... or you are a PCN (you DO know what THAT means, right?)

[MstrMsn]

Oh and...I'm NOT a mother!!

You're not??

[ExpandMyMind]

Oh and...I'm NOT a mother!!

lol feeling awfy sarcastic today, no?

I honestly don't class myself as a liberal. Or a tory/republican/rightist. Other people can feel free to label me whatever they wish, but I have way to many 'right-wing' beliefs to be accepted into that camp. I don't fit in either to be honest

What's with all the labels? Our brains aren't split down the middle. I judge each situation and issue seperately and according to their own sets of circumstances.

Edited May 4, 2011 by expandmymind

[ExpandMyMind]

Was speaking with my Muslim/Pakistani shopkeeper for a brief moment today.

"So, looks like they got Osama then", I said.

"What a load of crap, the man's been dead for years", he replied.

"Yeah I was under the impression he had been dead for years also", I said.

"Just political manouvering from Obama (something about the election)", he said.

"You guys had better watch, you guys are next", I told him, "the US are desperate to get into your country".

"Yeah I dunno why though, we have no oil or anything", he said.

"China wouldn't allow that anyways", I told him.

"Damned right about that" he replied.

[Black Red Devil]

I notice some people take offence to those rejoicing outside the White House.

One should take note that rather than rejoice this demons death, many are rejoicing the end of terror and the blow to the murderous faction he represents. These murderous people have lost their mastermind, their leader. They were thwarted with Bin Laden after 911 many times, they will fail big time without him. This is a big blow to terror, and that is worth rejoicing. Many lives will be saved by this act of terrorism defiance.

I highly doubt the official death announcement of Bin Laden will send Al Qaeda into disarray. Al Qaeda has no conventional military structure. Each cell follows an ideology and they do so without needing "an order from the top". The death of the "leader" of Al Qaeda would have made them more determined in their quest, IMO.

Al Qaeda has been moving towards decentralization ever since the invasion of Afghanistan, with isolated cells and loosely affiliated groups that have only a tenuous connection to the greater Al Qaeda hierarchy tapping into Bin Laden's "franchise," appropriating its ideological "brand name" for their actions.

My link

[Black Red Devil]

Well, let's see, if the orders were to take him alive, the Seals would have done that. The fact that Obama is president, and Osama was killed makes more people think that they may have disobeyed orders. Whatever.

The Pakistani government wasn't made aware of the operation for multiple reasons, them being involved in hiding him is one of those reasons, and another is that the actions were directed against people that the Pakistani government has denied were in their country. So, oh well. (plus, we have US Military in Pakistan as a jump point into areas of Afghanistan, so it's not like we "invaded").

Did you read what you wrote? Are you suggesting that the US Govt can authorise and has a Right to conduct military operations within another countries territory, furthermore, without their consent? Unbelievable!!

So, you would rather the US keep Osama's body, disrepescting Islamic beliefs? Did you forget that less than 24 hours after Saddam was hugn, he was buried? And many people were claiming that wasn't him and that it was too fast.

Angry about what? That they disposed of the body? Or that if they kept the body, they would upset Muslims? Please be more specific.

So yeah... if you think it's suspicious, then you either know nothing about the military, where we are operating bases out of, or of anything that the government is doing.... or you are a PCN (you DO know what THAT means, right?)

Disrespecting Islamic beliefs??!! The US hasn't been concerned about Islamic beliefs since 2001. Why would they start now?

[Q24]

I highly doubt the official death announcement of Bin Laden will send Al Qaeda into disarray. Al Qaeda has no conventional military structure. Each cell follows an ideology and they do so without needing "an order from the top". The death of the "leader" of Al Qaeda would have made them more determined in their quest, IMO.

I'd go a step further...

There never has been a structured group named 'Al Qaeda' further than the CIA/ISI defined during Operation Cyclone. Until 2004, bin Laden himself did not identify with the term and had conveyed his dislike for the name. He referred to his followers as the 'Mujahideen' and coined 'Al Qaeda' as a Western creation.

'Al Qaeda' is whatever the West want it to be.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Q24