Osama Bin Laden Dead

[Wookietim]

Just to mention that the Pakistani Muslim shop owner I spoke with earlier, when I mentioned how fast they got rid of the body, stated along the lines of "I know, talk about getting rid of the evidence and sweeping the whole thing undwer the carpet". He didn't seem to care if they had held onto this Muslim's body long enough to actually prove that it was him.

1. The US has never cared much for Muslim sensibilities (until now ).

2. I don't think that many Muslims would have given a crap about the holding onto the body of a mass murderer, someone who had become the most wanted man in the world. And considering the amount of innocent families the US has blown up in the region these past years, I really find it hard to believe they care about creating more enemies. In fact to suggest such a thing is farcical, to say the least.

3. Are murders in the Muslim World solved in only a day? There are never any exceptions to this rule? Police in these countries don't hold onto bodies as a means to gather evidence? Realyy, they don't?

All in all, the reasons given for the hush job, on the surface, may look reasonable, but, when scrutinised, they are simply ridiculous in my opinion.

What extra evidence do you want from the body? It matches the looks of Bin Laden, the DNA matches Bin Laden, and the placement of where he was matches where we expected Bin Laden to be. What extra evidence do you suddenly want? If you are willing to ignore all of that, I suggest that you are unable to accept any level of evidence.

[ExpandMyMind]

What extra evidence do you want from the body? It matches the looks of Bin Laden, the DNA matches Bin Laden, and the placement of where he was matches where we expected Bin Laden to be. What extra evidence do you suddenly want? If you are willing to ignore all of that, I suggest that you are unable to accept any level of evidence.

Independant verification. All we have is the word of the people who allege that this happened.

Sort of like that cold fusion thread in the science section. You have a group of scientists claiming to have discovered cold fusion, yet they are the only ones able to verify it. Should we just trust them?

And I can tell you, I'd trust two scientists more than I'd trust ANY government, never mind the US..

[Wookietim]

Independant verification. All we have is the word of the people who allege that this happened.

Sort of like that cold fusion thread in the science section. You have a group of scientists claiming to have discovered cold fusion, yet they are the only ones able to verify it. Should we just trust them?

And I can tell you, I'd trust two scientists more than I'd trust ANY government, never mind the US..

And again, since any independent verification would be approved by officials, that means that every one of them suddenly becomes fodder for the "They are part of the cover up" conspiracy theory. And I remind you - what proof would you have of anything that an independent witness would say?

This is simply a new conspiracy theory in the same vein as the birthers - even when presented with evidence the birthers still cling to their weird little fantasy.

[ExpandMyMind]

And again, since any independent verification would be approved by officials, that means that every one of them suddenly becomes fodder for the "They are part of the cover up" conspiracy theory. And I remind you - what proof would you have of anything that an independent witness would say?

This is simply a new conspiracy theory in the same vein as the birthers - even when presented with evidence the birthers still cling to their weird little fantasy.

You're just assuming that I wouldn't believe an independant verification? Dude, please.

And I really hate to be the one to bring this to your light, but without any actual proof, the claims made are the actual conspiracy theory. All the other side is doing is asking questions... I've yet to see anyone questioning the narrative say 'this happened' or 'that happened'. Such statements have only, of course, come from the White House (which, incidentally, keeps changing its story).

Unless your going to label anyone who ever questions anything the government says a conspiracy nut? By that reasoning the whole world would fit your criteria, and hey, look at that, you've just won practically every debate you want.

[Wookietim]

You're just assuming that I wouldn't believe an independant verification? Dude, please.

And I really hate to be the one to bring this to your light, but without any actual proof, the claims made are the actual conspiracy theory. All the other side is doing is asking questions... I've yet to see anyone questioning the narrative say 'this happened' or 'that happened'. Such statements have only, of course, come from the White House (which, incidentally, keeps changing its story).

Unless your going to label anyone who ever questions anything the government says a conspiracy nut? By that reasoning the whole world would fit your criteria, and hey, look at that, you've just won practically every debate you want.

Well, you flat out don't seem to believe the verification already presented to you. And any "Independent" verification would have to pass through the same source, so it would be subject to the same doubt you have about the original verification. So, "dude", it does seem that you are more invested in believing a conspiracy theory than in the facts and evidence presented to you.

And I have proof - DNA evidence. It is you and your conspiracy theory that is concocting an elaborate fantasy where Bin Laden either wasn't killed or was already dead and for some reason the govt decided to somehow fake the results of a DNA test in order to claim they killed him.

And yes - I would label anyone that automatically questions the govt's word "Just because" and without any real grounds for doubt a conspiracy nut. I lump people who present these theories in with birthers - you all believe things that have no basis in the evidence presented for no reason other than a bizarre distrust of Obama or the govt as a whole.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Wookietim

[Princess Serenity]

Fox News reports that Obama won't be releasing the pictures. But I heard what the picture looks like. You could see his brain, one eye is open and the other is missing. I'm sure it's pretty gruesome too. ><

[ohio traveler]

Wonder who will play Bin Laden in the up-coming movie ?

I'm guessing Will Smith.

[booNyzarC]

Fox News reports that Obama won't be releasing the pictures. But I heard what the picture looks like. You could see his brain, one eye is open and the other is missing. I'm sure it's pretty gruesome too. ><

Yahoo news just reported this same thing about 20 minutes ago here.

[Space Commander Travis]

I'm not going to argue about this ad infinitum, ad hominem and per ardua ad astra, but

Well, since you are assuming that the evidence presented to you of the DNA test is not valid because it was conducted by the govt, I would say that you are the one constructing a conspiracy theory.

Why do you assume that i'm assuming that it's not valid? I'm asking how and when it was done, and so how reliable it can be?

What extra evidence do you want from the body? It matches the looks of Bin Laden, the DNA matches Bin Laden, and the placement of where he was matches where we expected Bin Laden to be. What extra evidence do you suddenly want? If you are willing to ignore all of that, I suggest that you are unable to accept any level of evidence.

How do you know that? No one seems to have seen an actual picture of the body, so how do you know it looks like him? Now aren't you assuming? And

the placement of where he was matches where we expected Bin Laden to be

Does it really? Most people seemed to be surprised that he was found where he was. Or do you mean the location in the house? Surely anyone could've been anywhere in the house.

[Space Commander Travis]

Again, (I know I said i wasn't going to keep arguing, i'm sorry), but

Well, you flat out don't seem to believe the verification already presented to you.

What verification has there been? What the government has said, that seems to be all. Is this really just "The Obama administration would not lie [or not even lie, just perhaps stretch a truth]"?

And I have proof - DNA evidence.

have you really? have you seen it? Has anyone actually seen it yet?

[Space Commander Travis]

And yes - I would label anyone that automatically questions the govt's word "Just because" and without any real grounds for doubt a conspiracy nut.

I think that many people, and by no means merely conspiracy nuts, would consider that a very wise policy.

[The Silver Thong]

How do we know this dna sample is post 9/11. I mean, I'm sure they would have blood samples on file especially working for the CIA

[Wookietim]

Why do you assume that i'm assuming that it's not valid? I'm asking how and when it was done, and so how reliable it can be?

Because you are arguing against it. If you accept that the DNA proof is valid then you have no reason to argue about your conspiracy theory.

How do you know that? No one seems to have seen an actual picture of the body, so how do you know it looks like him? Now aren't you assuming? And

Does it really? Most people seemed to be surprised that he was found where he was. Or do you mean the location in the house? Surely anyone could've been anywhere in the house.

Because people who have seen the picture say that the body looks like Obama.

Now, please feel free to present evidence that shows that this was anyone other than Bin Laden killed. No more of this rumor mongering or little insinuations - do you have one shred of proof that backs up your ideas or doubt? Can you point to any actual evidence that lends any little bit of credence to your doubts?

[Wookietim]

I think that many people, and by no means merely conspiracy nuts, would consider that a very wise policy.

No, that is actually a policy that is better characterized as simple paranoia - that everyone is lying to you until shown otherwise.

Now, feel free to present your evidence that backs up your doubts. Otherwise you are simply engaging in a paranoid conspiracy theory - just like the birthers.

[FurthurBB]

the interesting thing, for people who see things in simple us/them, Repub/Dem, Patriot/Liberal, terms, is that it was Obama -the Dem incarnate, the socialist and - to some- the closet Muslim - who authorised, and not only authorised, but watched live, this assassination. This must confuse their world view.

Well, some of us live in the real world where Obama is obviously a centrist. I guess I could make up my own world view and then be confused that facts don't match, but why?

[Beckys_Mom]

Just to mention that the Pakistani Muslim shop owner I spoke with earlier, when I mentioned how fast they got rid of the body, stated along the lines of "I know, talk about getting rid of the evidence and sweeping the whole thing under the carpet". He didn't seem to care if they had held onto this Muslim's body long enough to actually prove that it was him.

Give me one good reason as to why the Americans would need to fake it -after 10 long years... why wait 10 years for a fake?.........to gain what exactly?

[FurthurBB]

Actually, when you think about it, it was a very smart move on Bin Ladins behalf to hide out in the last place they would be likely to look...Most figured he had fled far out in a secret hideout...

I never did, I always suspected they would find him in mansion. I just thought it would be in Saudi Arabia.

[The Silver Thong]

No, that is actually a policy that is better characterized as simple paranoia - that everyone is lying to you until shown otherwise.

Now, feel free to present your evidence that backs up your doubts. Otherwise you are simply engaging in a paranoid conspiracy theory - just like the birthers.

Wait a second here Wookie. Didn't you start a thread about Loose Change 9/11 and how it changed your mind about the government and the official explanation? If so your argument is in direct conflict with your beliefs in your 9/11 thread. Have you changed your mind again and now believe the official story about 9/11. Just asking man.

[Beckys_Mom]

I never did, I always suspected they would find him in mansion. I just thought it would be in Saudi Arabia.

They probably thought he would shift to Saudi Arabia too..to his homeland <-- if you were Bin Laddin would you go there...knowing that's exactly what they would be expecting??

[The Silver Thong]

Give me one good reason as to why the Americans would need to fake it -after 10 long years... why wait 10 years for a fake?.........to gain what exactly?

Because if Osama had died in 2001 2002 then the last 8 years of war was a complete lie and fabrication.

[FurthurBB]

politically better? The leader (supposedly) of the most dangerous terror network on earth (supposedly)? Is it only me, or am I the only one that thinks that there might have been some intelligence value in holding him? And it's politically better that the U.S. is seen by the world (those parts of it outside the flag-waving sycophants in the British tabloids) as a gang of gunslingers that now feel that it's perfectly ok to go storming in to wherever in the world they want in order to rub out whoever they want, purely because they say that it's legal and a legitimate act of war? That this was authorised, and watched live on TV, by the president, the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize? Was that a good decision politically? You do realise that if the U.S. wants anyone to take it seriously as a judge and moral arbiter, they're going to have to rely on the Big Stick and fear of Team Six descending on you, since it's shot the legs it had to stand on out from under it in terms of having any kind of moral or legal authority?

I do not at all believe he would have given us any information. He was trained by the CIA, come on, do you really believe he would have given us something?

[Wookietim]

Wait a second here Wookie. Didn't you start a thread about Loose Change 9/11 and how it changed your mind about the government and the official explanation? If so your argument is in direct conflict with your beliefs in your 9/11 thread. Have you changed your mind again and now believe the official story about 9/11. Just asking man.

Actually, no - I started the thread because it planted doubts in my mind. And if you notice, I haven't commented in it lately because, after reading the responses I got, I came to the conclusion that I agreed with the debunkers of the documentary and that the evidence points to exactly what the official story has always been.

If presented with compelling evidence to plant doubt in my mind about this I will do the same. But just saying "No independent verification was given" is not evidence. That is equivalent to assuming everyone is lying to you all the time, which is not a valid POV.

[Wookietim]

Because if Osama had died in 2001 2002 then the last 8 years of war was a complete lie and fabrication.

In that case, wouldn't it have been much more politically expedient to fake Bin Laden being in Afghanistan or Iraq in order to say "See - we were justified in entering those countries"?

[Beckys_Mom]

Because if Osama had died in 2001 2002 then the last 8 years of war was a complete lie and fabrication.

If he had of died in 2001 or 2002..America wouldn't went to war in Afghanistan...so what point were you trying to make??

[The Silver Thong]

In that case, wouldn't it have been much more politically expedient to fake Bin Laden being in Afghanistan or Iraq in order to say "See - we were justified in entering those countries"?

Not if there is a hidden agenda with Pakistan.