Osama Bin Laden Dead

[Space Commander Travis]

Because you are arguing against it. If you accept that the DNA proof is valid then you have no reason to argue about your conspiracy theory.

Because people who have seen the picture say that the body looks like Obama.

Now, please feel free to present evidence that shows that this was anyone other than Bin Laden killed. No more of this rumor mongering or little insinuations - do you have one shred of proof that backs up your ideas or doubt? Can you point to any actual evidence that lends any little bit of credence to your doubts?

No, I can't point to any actual evidence that lends credence to this conspiracy theory you seem convinced that I hold, because I have seen very little evidence at all so far. You say that "people who have seen the picture" say. Who are these people? Have you seen the DNA Proof? How can anyone say that they accept or reject it if they do not know what it is?

I will not argue any more, but just one Question: Would you accept the word of the government, if they had not provided any evidence, but just asked you to trust them, if it had been the Bush administration?

[Wookietim]

Not if there is a hidden agenda with Pakistan.

So, in other words, this is a conspiracy theory in the eyes of those that believe it.

In other words, the seal team, the ship that Bin Ladens body was dumped from, the people that did the DNA test, Obama, his cabinet, and the joint chiefs of staff are all in on a big conspiracy to make us go to war with Pakistan now? And this is the "Sane" view that has been alluded to?

[The Silver Thong]

Actually, no - I started the thread because it planted doubts in my mind. And if you notice, I haven't commented in it lately because, after reading the responses I got, I came to the conclusion that I agreed with the debunkers of the documentary and that the evidence points to exactly what the official story has always been.

If presented with compelling evidence to plant doubt in my mind about this I will do the same. But just saying "No independent verification was given" is not evidence. That is equivalent to assuming everyone is lying to you all the time, which is not a valid POV.

Fair enough

I'll be honest I'm not so sure one way or the other right now.

[Beckys_Mom]

No, I can't point to any actual evidence that lends credence to this conspiracy theory you seem convinced that I hold, because I have seen very little evidence at all so far. You say that "people who have seen the picture" say. Who are these people? Have you seen the DNA Proof? How can anyone say that they accept or reject it if they do not know what it is?

I will not argue any more, but just one Question: Would you accept the word of the government, if they had not provided any evidence, but just asked you to trust them, if it had been the Bush administration?

Considering this thread has 38 pages or more..I haven't been able to follow all your posts

Let me just ask -> Are you skeptical that it was Bin Ladin they killed??

[Wookietim]

No, I can't point to any actual evidence that lends credence to this conspiracy theory you seem convinced that I hold, because I have seen very little evidence at all so far. You say that "people who have seen the picture" say. Who are these people? Have you seen the DNA Proof? How can anyone say that they accept or reject it if they do not know what it is?

I will not argue any more, but just one Question: Would you accept the word of the government, if they had not provided any evidence, but just asked you to trust them, if it had been the Bush administration?

So, let's see... You are handed the conclusion that DNA evidence supports this... That pictures do... that placement does... and because Obama hasn't visited you at home and opened a secret folder of all the evidence collected and let you pour through it, you find the "Sane" course of action to simply jump to the conclusion that everyone is lying to you? Are you really that paranoid?

[The Silver Thong]

So, in other words, this is a conspiracy theory in the eyes of those that believe it.

In other words, the seal team, the ship that Bin Ladens body was dumped from, the people that did the DNA test, Obama, his cabinet, and the joint chiefs of staff are all in on a big conspiracy to make us go to war with Pakistan now? And this is the "Sane" view that has been alluded to?

Only a small amount of people would actually know what was going on and it wouldn't take many to pull it off either. Now don't get me wrong here I'm not arguing one side over the other. I think more info will come out over the next few weeks.

[Beckys_Mom]

So, in other words, this is a conspiracy theory in the eyes of those that believe it.

In other words, the seal team, the ship that Bin Ladens body was dumped from, the people that did the DNA test, Obama, his cabinet, and the joint chiefs of staff are all in on a big conspiracy to make us go to war with Pakistan now? And this is the "Sane" view that has been alluded to?

Sure go to an awful lot of trouble.. don't they? it would be easier just to nuke them...prolly cost less too

[The Silver Thong]

If he had of died in 2001 or 2002..America wouldn't went to war in Afghanistan...so what point were you trying to make??

That they Used Osama as a pretext to war knowing he was dead already.

[Wookietim]

Only a small amount of people would actually know what was going on and it wouldn't take many to pull it off either. Now don't get me wrong here I'm not arguing one side over the other. I think more info will come out over the next few weeks.

Well, it needs to be at least a few hundred people between all those I listed. And there would have to be a lot more in order to make it work. That just doesn't hang together.

Occams razor can be brought to play here : Either we are to believe that a large group of people have decided to conduct a campaign of lies to some unknown end... or this was actually Bin Laden. And the latter fulfills all of the needs of the explanation in the simplest and most direct way. Therefore, I see no reason to doubt the official stance.

[The Silver Thong]

Well, it needs to be at least a few hundred people between all those I listed. And there would have to be a lot more in order to make it work. That just doesn't hang together.

Occams razor can be brought to play here : Either we are to believe that a large group of people have decided to conduct a campaign of lies to some unknown end... or this was actually Bin Laden. And the latter fulfills all of the needs of the explanation in the simplest and most direct way. Therefore, I see no reason to doubt the official stance.

Basically what I'm saying is that how this went down left some loose ends that are now driving this conspiracy theory. I think it could have been done a bit better if they just wouldn have been more forthcoming with proof and not just this is what happened please believe US. It's not like the government has never lied before is it?

[FurthurBB]

Again, (I know I said i wasn't going to keep arguing, i'm sorry), but

What verification has there been? What the government has said, that seems to be all. Is this really just "The Obama administration would not lie [or not even lie, just perhaps stretch a truth]"?

have you really? have you seen it? Has anyone actually seen it yet?

You do not have to worry about independent verification. I am positive it will come. The FBI always uses at least 2 independent contractors to verify their DNA analysis. That is why their tests are always more accurate than local tests. Although they do not tell the labs what the samples are, only how they were collected and what has been done to them since. In this case, I think it will be hard for the labs that receive the samples not to know because of the timing and that they had to be transported back to the US. Since they also send "control" samples, or dummy samples, the lab does not know which is the actual sample they want tested. It is a good way to do things.

[Wookietim]

Basically what I'm saying is that how this went down left some loose ends that are now driving this conspiracy theory. I think it could have been done a bit better if they just wouldn have been more forthcoming with proof and not just this is what happened please believe US. It's not like the government has never lied before is it?

But they are loose ends only in the conspiracists minds.

DNA evidence exists, photographic evidence exists, a trail of intelligence leading to the mansion in Pakistan exists... Unless one really really just wants to assume that the govt is lying and is willing to discount all of that, then there are no loose ends.

This is sort of like the one quick joke on the Simpsons that Smithers said about who shot Mr Burns : "But to believe all of that one would have to ignore all the Simpson DNA evidence... and that would be just wacky."

[FurthurBB]

They probably thought he would shift to Saudi Arabia too..to his homeland <-- if you were Bin Laddin would you go there...knowing that's exactly what they would be expecting??

True enough, but I am still not at all surprised he was found in a mansion. He was very wealthy.

[Beckys_Mom]

That they Used Osama as a pretext to war knowing he was dead already.

So let me get this straight... someone else was posing as Bin Ladin, making video's and posting them on line for these past 10 years?...AND..everyone of his followers and supporters decided to keep it all hush hush...for the past 10 years????

Edited May 4, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[Space Commander Travis]

So, let's see... You are handed the conclusion that DNA evidence supports this... That pictures do... that placement does... and because Obama hasn't visited you at home and opened a secret folder of all the evidence collected and let you pour through it, you find the "Sane" course of action to simply jump to the conclusion that everyone is lying to you? Are you really that paranoid?

if we could leave the rhetorical attacks out of it (and i really don't know what's got into you, i always thought you were a very reasonable person, i mus say i'm rather disappointed ) I haven't actually been handed any conclusions that any evdience supports anything, in fact no one has. So I really don't know why i'm so consistently attacked just for stating that. I still don't know what you mean by "placement". Surely where the body was found in the hosue (if that's what you mean) doesn't prove one thing or another, and if you mean where he was found in Pakistan, then like I said I think most people were rather surprised by that. Can i just ask again what would be your answer to the question I asked, i.e. Would you accept the word of the government, if they had not provided any evidence, but just asked you to trust them, if it had been the Bush administration?

[Beckys_Mom]

True enough, but I am still not at all surprised he was found in a mansion. He was very wealthy.

Sky News said it was a big place..but not what they would call a mansion... I saw it myself on the news.. it wasn't looking the best either

[The Silver Thong]

But they are loose ends only in the conspiracists minds.

DNA evidence exists, photographic evidence exists, a trail of intelligence leading to the mansion in Pakistan exists... Unless one really really just wants to assume that the govt is lying and is willing to discount all of that, then there are no loose ends.

This is sort of like the one quick joke on the Simpsons that Smithers said about who shot Mr Burns : "But to believe all of that one would have to ignore all the Simpson DNA evidence... and that would be just wacky."

There is so much wrong with these wars the reasons behind them and the pile of BS from the Bush admin that it's no wonder people are going to question everything. I just can't believe all this time he was in Pakistan 500 yards from there elite military training school lol I'm worried about Pakistan/US relations going south and more crap hitting the fan.

[Wookietim]

There is so much wrong with these wars the reasons behind them and the pile of BS from the Bush admin that it's no wonder people are going to question everything. I just can't believe all this time he was in Pakistan 500 yards from there elite military training school lol I'm worried about Pakistan/US relations going south and more crap hitting the fan.

Well, I suspect that Pakistan was harboring him. I seem to recall a few reporters mentioning on NPR a couple years ago that if we called at all about actually combating terrorism and going after Bin laden and Al Qaeda that we would be focusing more on Pakistan than on Afghanistan and Iraq. That was when the Iraq war was young...

But the fact is that I have yet to see any piece of data that plants any doubt in my mind about whether it was actually Bin laden or not. So far, the only responses I have seen on this was some form of "Well, they tossed him overboard at sea and since everybody lies about everything all the time [a rather immature mindset IMHO] this must be a cover-up". That is not a reason to doubt the official story. That is simple paranoia talking.

When someone can present me with a bit of evidence more concrete that pure suspicion, then I will reevaluate. But so far, nothing like that has surfaced.

[Corp]

That they Used Osama as a pretext to war knowing he was dead already.

Why would Obama want to keep that secret though? If all this is for political gain, as some have claimed, would it not have been smarter to put out that the Republicans have been lying to everyone for years? Figure that would give him a bigger boost in the polls than ordering a mission to go ahead.

[questionmark]

Why would Obama want to keep that secret though? If all this is for political gain, as some have claimed, would it not have been smarter to put out that the Republicans have been lying to everyone for years? Figure that would give him a bigger boost in the polls than ordering a mission to go ahead.

Quite correct.

Besides, precisely what was to be avoided by making the body disappear wold have happened years before: A hero's funeral for Osama. No matter what, al Qaeda would never have let that chance to rally out.

[Wookietim]

if we could leave the rhetorical attacks out of it (and i really don't know what's got into you, i always thought you were a very reasonable person, i mus say i'm rather disappointed ) I haven't actually been handed any conclusions that any evdience supports anything, in fact no one has. So I really don't know why i'm so consistently attacked just for stating that. I still don't know what you mean by "placement". Surely where the body was found in the hosue (if that's what you mean) doesn't prove one thing or another, and if you mean where he was found in Pakistan, then like I said I think most people were rather surprised by that. Can i just ask again what would be your answer to the question I asked, i.e. Would you accept the word of the government, if they had not provided any evidence, but just asked you to trust them, if it had been the Bush administration?

We have a trail of intelligence that led us to that mansion in Pakistan. We had a body that matched Bin Laden and whose DNA matched Bin Laden.

So far, there is no reason to be suspicious of the official story. There is no evidence to argue to the contrary of it, no reason to doubt it, and no data to base a counter-claim on. Therefore to jump to the conclusion that it is all lies means that conclusion is based in nothing other than paranoia and suspicion - in other words, two things that are manufactured in the minds of the doubters rather than in reality.

If you can produce something more concrete than suspicion, then I will be happy to reevaluate. Until then, this is a conspiracy theory that exists on no more concrete evidence than the birthers suspicions and must be viewed to exist on the same level.

[The Silver Thong]

Why would Obama want to keep that secret though? If all this is for political gain, as some have claimed, would it not have been smarter to put out that the Republicans have been lying to everyone for years? Figure that would give him a bigger boost in the polls than ordering a mission to go ahead.

To prevent civial war. Hell I don't know but as is mentioned so often the dem's and the pub's same snake 2 heads analogy thing. One covers for the other, that sort of thing. Besides we all know every president is bought and paid for before even getting considered for the job.

[Space Commander Travis]

We have a trail of intelligence that led us to that mansion in Pakistan. We had a body that matched Bin Laden and whose DNA matched Bin Laden.

So far, there is no reason to be suspicious of the official story. There is no evidence to argue to the contrary of it, no reason to doubt it, and no data to base a counter-claim on. Therefore to jump to the conclusion that it is all lies means that conclusion is based in nothing other than paranoia and suspicion - in other words, two things that are manufactured in the minds of the doubters rather than in reality.

If you can produce something more concrete than suspicion, then I will be happy to reevaluate. Until then, this is a conspiracy theory that exists on no more concrete evidence than the birthers suspicions and must be viewed to exist on the same level.

What about my, increasingly it's looking like, rhetorical question? If the same level of evidence had been presented by Mr. Obama's predecessor, would you still be so confident? After i've asked that, I promise I will go away and not bother anyone for a bit. Mr. Obama's predecessor, please don't forget, assured everyone that he had proof of the existence of weapons of bad that were possessed by Mr. Saddam Hussein. He told us that he had proof, just as, so far, mr. Obama has told us that he has proof of the existence of Mr. bin Laden. That is all i am asking. I am merely trying to hold everyone to the same standard.

[questionmark]

To prevent civial war. Hell I don't know but as is mentioned so often the dem's and the pub's same snake 2 heads analogy thing. One covers for the other, that sort of thing. Besides we all know every president is bought and paid for before even getting considered for the job.

What civil war are you talking about? What did you smoke today?

[Wookietim]

What about my, increasingly it's looking like, rhetorical question? If the same level of evidence had been presented by Mr. Obama's predecessor, would you still be so confident? After i've asked that, I promise I will go away and not bother anyone for a bit. Mr. Obama's predecessor, please don't forget, assured everyone that he had proof of the existence of weapons of bad that were possessed by Mr. Saddam Hussein. He told us that he had proof, just as, so far, mr. Obama has told us that he has proof of the existence of Mr. bin Laden. That is all i am asking. I am merely trying to hold everyone to the same standard.

Yes, actually. I am perfectly happy accepting the official explanation for 9/11 after all. When presented with data that caused me to doubt I considered the alternative theories of 9/11 and came away unconvinced by them recently. But that was after I was presented evidence that went beyond pure suspicion and paranoia.

So, to answer your question in no uncertain terms : When the Bush administration presented it's evidence saying that Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks I accepted it and have no reason to question it. Reality is not a political football game after all. And leaping to the conclusion that "The govt says this therefore it's all a lie" based on no real reason to doubt their story is not a valid line of thought.

Now, if you can present me with some evidence or data that refutes the govts story, I will be happy to reevaluate my stance. But until then, simple paranoia is not enough to make me do that.