Osama Bin Laden Dead

[Space Commander Travis]

Yes, actually. I am perfectly happy accepting the official explanation for 9/11 after all. When presented with data that caused me to doubt I considered the alternative theories of 9/11 and came away unconvinced by them recently. But that was after I was presented evidence that went beyond pure suspicion and paranoia.

So, to answer your question in no uncertain terms : When the Bush administration presented it's evidence saying that Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks I accepted it and have no reason to question it. Reality is not a political football game after all. And leaping to the conclusion that "The govt says this therefore it's all a lie" based on no real reason to doubt their story is not a valid line of thought.

Even though subsequently, the Bush administration assured everyone that it had evidence of saddam hussein's involvement in Weapons of Mass Destruction programs, thereby justifying the invasion of Iraq, and even though no proof of such programs (at least, since the 1980s) was ever found? Does this set a good precedent for accepting every assurance from the government? In fact, i think I'd say that it would give good cause for regarding government assurances with some suspicion, until they can be proved.

... Unless of course, that was the Republicans, and it's a quite different matter with the Democrats, and they can be implicitly trusted.

[Wookietim]

Even though subsequently, the Bush administration assured everyone that it had evidence of saddam hussein's involvement in Weapons of Mass Destruction programs, thereby justifying the invasion of Iraq, and even though no proof of such programs (at least, since the 1980s) was ever found? Does this set a good precedent for accepting every assurance from the government? In fact, i think I'd say that it would give good cause for regarding government assurances with some suspicion, until they can be proved.

... Unless of course, that was the Republicans, and it's a quite different matter with the Democrats, and they can be implicitly trusted.

When evidence was presented of a lie, then I took a look at it and went where the evidence led. The evidence in that case led to the conclusion that the administration was lying. But that is the thing - I go where the evidence leads. In this case, there is no evidence to lead to the conclusion of "Lie" and therefore to jump to that conclusion based on nothing is not logical nor is it sane. It is an example of pure paranoia rather than any logical or competent evaluation of the data presented.

[Beckys_Mom]

Why would Obama want to keep that secret though? If all this is for political gain, as some have claimed, would it not have been smarter to put out that the Republicans have been lying to everyone for years? Figure that would give him a bigger boost in the polls than ordering a mission to go ahead.

Better still...why would Bin Laddin as ST suggests - IF already dead...how was he able to pose in all the video's he made on line?? and why would al of Laddins's supporters and followers keep it all hush??

None of it makes sense

[FurthurBB]

What about my, increasingly it's looking like, rhetorical question? If the same level of evidence had been presented by Mr. Obama's predecessor, would you still be so confident? After i've asked that, I promise I will go away and not bother anyone for a bit. Mr. Obama's predecessor, please don't forget, assured everyone that he had proof of the existence of weapons of bad that were possessed by Mr. Saddam Hussein. He told us that he had proof, just as, so far, mr. Obama has told us that he has proof of the existence of Mr. bin Laden. That is all i am asking. I am merely trying to hold everyone to the same standard.

That is a totally different thing. Bush was trying to tell me something that made absolutely no sense. Giving me pieces that obviously do not fit the puzzle. If that was the case here, I would not believe them.

[The Silver Thong]

What civil war are you talking about? What did you smoke today?

As I said I don't know but if the people of the US found out the last 10 years have all been for nothing there might be a few at home pretty upset.

[Q24]

When the Bush administration presented it's evidence saying that Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks I accepted it and have no reason to question it.

What evidence did the Bush administration present that bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attack, Wookie?

[questionmark]

As I said I don't know but if the people of the US found out the last 10 years have all been for nothing there might be a few at home pretty upset.

9/11 is real, Mombasa is real and the Cole is real. And every time there was bin Laden, without being forced, using these cases as decorative plumage. That is good enough for me and I believe that is good enough for most Americans.

[Wookietim]

What evidence did the Bush administration present that bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attack, Wookie?

On the day of the attacks, the National Security Agency intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden,[21] as did German intelligence agencies. (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/29/world/nation-challenged-german-intelligence-german-data-led-us-search-for-more-suicide.html) Those communications ruled out other suspects and confirmed that Al Qaeda was responsible for the attacks.

So, unless you are willing to allege that German intelligence agencies are in cahoots with the US intelligence agencies and that therefore there is a multi-national conspiracy to indict Bin Laden, I suggest you accept that evidence.

[Wookietim]

9/11 is real, Mombasa is real and the Cole is real. And every time there was bin Laden, without being forced, using these cases as decorative plumage. That is good enough for me and I believe that is good enough for most Americans.

You forgot the London and Spain subway bombings (And there are probably a few others - that was one that came to mind almost immediately).

[Beckys_Mom]

As I said I don't know but if the people of the US found out the last 10 years have all been for nothing there might be a few at home pretty upset.

Of course there would be!!!.........Have you ever heard the old saying - The simplist answer is usually the correct one? IE -> He hid himself well for 10 years...but now we found him

Plus he should also get a mention in the Guinness Book of World Records - That must have been the longest game of hide and seek in history..!

ST as you didn't reply to my last post.. I was wondering -- Who exactly was posing as Bin Laddin these past 10 years in all the video's he posted on line?...And Why did his followers and supporters keep it all hush...if he was already dead back in 2001 / 02 ??

[Fluffybunny]

Better still...why would Bin Laddin as ST suggests - IF already dead...how was he able to pose in all the video's he made on line?? and why would al of Laddins's supporters and followers keep it all hush??

None of it makes sense

Did you ever notice that all of the contact from OBL(since 2002) are not actually fresh videos of him(live), but rather either only audio tapes or old footage of him with a new voice soundtrack added over the top with the new information? It wasn't like he was actually videotaping himself new each and every time. Most of the contact was just supposed audio from obl, and not even video...So I don't think he really "posed" for more than a couple videos early on, and then they were re-used with a voiceover that was supposed to be him(where they would add some topical information to "prove" he is still around).

Yeah that could of been obl's way of being safe I guess, but I find it odd. I know the guy doesn't want to videotape himself strolling down the street and giving away his position, but for so long, nothing new in the way of video?

[Wookietim]

Did you ever notice that all of the contact from OBL(since 2002) are not actually fresh videos of him(live), but rather either only audio tapes or old footage of him with a new voice soundtrack added over the top with the new information? It wasn't like he was actually videotaping himself new each and every time. Most of the contact was just supposed audio from obl, and not even video...So I don't think he really "posed" for more than a couple videos early on, and then they were re-used with a voiceover that was supposed to be him(where they would add some topical information to "prove" he is still around).

Yeah that could of been obl's way of being safe I guess, but I find it odd. I know the guy doesn't want to videotape himself strolling down the street and giving away his position, but for so long, nothing new in the way of video?

That might be a chink in the official story... if it weren't for the fact that an individuals speech patterns are as unique as fingerprints (Actually, more unique) and therefore it is quite easy to match a new piece of audio to an old one and conclude that it was OBL that was talking...

[The Silver Thong]

Of course there would be!!!.........Have you ever heard the old saying - The simplist answer is usually the correct one? IE -> He hid himself well for 10 years...but now we found him

Plus he should also get a mention in the Guinness Book of World Records - That must have been the longest game of hide and seek in history..!

ST as you didn't reply to my last post.. I was wondering -- Who exactly was posing as Bin Laddin these past 10 years in all the video's he posted on line?...And Why did his followers and supporters keep it all hush...if he was already dead back in 2001 / 02 ??

It was one hell of a game of hide and seek that's for sure. As I have said I am not arguing one way or the other just having fun with this conspiracy and that is what it is for right now. It took months if not years for all of Bush's lies to come forth.

As far as the video's of BL many claim it's not him and some claim they were a product of the CIA.

Oh I'm at work so my replies are pretty sporadic

Edited May 4, 2011 by The Silver Thong

[Corp]

As I said I don't know but if the people of the US found out the last 10 years have all been for nothing there might be a few at home pretty upset.

Yes and this would likely cause them to switch their vote. The US is no ready for another civil war, regardless of how badly the left-right split has gotten.

[The Silver Thong]

9/11 is real, Mombasa is real and the Cole is real. And every time there was bin Laden, without being forced, using these cases as decorative plumage. That is good enough for me and I believe that is good enough for most Americans.

Never said any of things were not real What about the question from Q24 and the proof behind Bin L and 9/11?

Yes and this would likely cause them to switch their vote. The US is no ready for another civil war, regardless of how badly the left-right split has gotten.

I would have to agree.

[Q24]

On the day of the attacks, the National Security Agency intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden,[21] as did German intelligence agencies. (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/29/world/nation-challenged-german-intelligence-german-data-led-us-search-for-more-suicide.html) Those communications ruled out other suspects and confirmed that Al Qaeda was responsible for the attacks.

So, unless you are willing to allege that German intelligence agencies are in cahoots with the US intelligence agencies and that therefore there is a multi-national conspiracy to indict Bin Laden, I suggest you accept that evidence.

I accept the evidence that German intelligence intercepted a communication from someone stating, "the 30 people traveling for the operation".

But I ask for the second time, what evidence did the Bush administration present that bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attack?

[Wookietim]

I accept the evidence that German intelligence intercepted a communication from someone stating, "the 30 people traveling for the operation".

But I ask for the second time, what evidence did the Bush administration present that bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attack?

Perhaps a better question would be what evidence do you have that the govt was lying and that someone else was responsible? Do you have anything to actually refute that Bin laden and Al Queda were responsible?

[Beckys_Mom]

Did you ever notice that all of the contact from OBL(since 2002) are not actually fresh videos of him(live), but rather either only audio tapes or old footage of him with a new voice soundtrack added over the top with the new information? It wasn't like he was actually videotaping himself new each and every time. Most of the contact was just supposed audio from obl, and not even video...So I don't think he really "posed" for more than a couple videos early on, and then they were re-used with a voiceover that was supposed to be him(where they would add some topical information to "prove" he is still around).

Yeah that could of been obl's way of being safe I guess, but I find it odd. I know the guy doesn't want to videotape himself strolling down the street and giving away his position, but for so long, nothing new in the way of video?

Ok video to one side... Moving on to his followers / supporters - Wouldn't they love to make martyr of him, and celebrate his battle with the infidels...isn't that the goal of all of these people - to die in battle in the middle of Jihad and accend into paradise??

Wookietim

That might be a chink in the official story... if it weren't for the fact that an individuals speech patterns are as unique as fingerprints (Actually, more unique) and therefore it is quite easy to match a new piece of audio to an old one and conclude that it was OBL that was talking...

Hmm well that's true too... The CIA for one are experts on voice analysis

Edited May 4, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[Q24]

That might be a chink in the official story... if it weren't for the fact that an individuals speech patterns are as unique as fingerprints (Actually, more unique) and therefore it is quite easy to match a new piece of audio to an old one and conclude that it was OBL that was talking...

Like this: -

Swiss scientists 95% sure that Bin Laden recording was fake

And this: -

On December 20, 2001, German TV channel "Das Erste" broadcast an analysis of the White House's translation of the videotape. On the program "Monitor", two independent translators and an expert on oriental studies found the White House's translation to be both inaccurate and manipulative stating

"At the most important places where it is held to prove the guilt of bin Laden, it is not identical with the Arabic"

and that the words used that indicate foreknowledge can not be heard at all in the original. Prof. Gernot Rotter, professor of Islamic and Arabic Studies at the Asia-Africa Institute at the University of Hamburg said

"The American translators who listened to the tapes and transcribed them apparently wrote a lot of things in that they wanted to hear but that cannot be heard on the tape no matter how many times you listen to it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videos_and_audio_recordings_of_Osama_bin_Laden#December_13.2C_2001

Yes, that would be a chink there.

[The Silver Thong]

[/b]Hmm well that's true too... The CIA for one are experts on voice analysis

Not if the CIA were behind the video's Fluffy ment that BL could have made a recording and put it over an old video to hide his location so it would be his voice or maybe not. We need some independent in put on that one.

Edited May 4, 2011 by The Silver Thong

[Wookietim]

Like this: -

Swiss scientists 95% sure that Bin Laden recording was fake

And this: -

On December 20, 2001, German TV channel "Das Erste" broadcast an analysis of the White House's translation of the videotape. On the program "Monitor", two independent translators and an expert on oriental studies found the White House's translation to be both inaccurate and manipulative stating

"At the most important places where it is held to prove the guilt of bin Laden, it is not identical with the Arabic"

and that the words used that indicate foreknowledge can not be heard at all in the original. Prof. Gernot Rotter, professor of Islamic and Arabic Studies at the Asia-Africa Institute at the University of Hamburg said

"The American translators who listened to the tapes and transcribed them apparently wrote a lot of things in that they wanted to hear but that cannot be heard on the tape no matter how many times you listen to it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videos_and_audio_recordings_of_Osama_bin_Laden#December_13.2C_2001

Yes, that would be a chink there.

It's very simple - take a recording you know Bin Laden made. Run it through a voice analyzer. Then take another recording you are suspicious of and do the same. If they don't match, come back and let me know about it. Otherwise, they are the same person.

[Beckys_Mom]

Like this: -

Swiss scientists 95% sure that Bin Laden recording was fake

They are speaking of just the ONE recording dating back in 2002..and that proves.....? Just because you have one fake recording, doesn't provide any real evidence that Bin laddin was dead

Edited May 4, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[Q24]

Perhaps a better question would be what evidence do you have that the govt was lying and that someone else was responsible? Do you have anything to actually refute that Bin laden and Al Queda were responsible?

Yes, a mass of evidence that the intelligence services, both U.S. and foreign, were crawling all over the 9/11 operation. The FBI were aware of two of the terrorists inside the country three months prior to 9/11, were fully aware of the threat and wanted to move in - they were prevented by a higher authority.

Oh where to start? The comments of FBI agent Steve Bongardt: -

June 2001, apparently in connection to the USS Cole bombing…

“What’s the story with the Almihdhar information, when is it going to get passed, do we have anything yet, when is it going to get passed?”

August 2001, upon receiving an e-mail from FBI HQ…

“Dina, you got to be kidding me! Almihdhar is in the country?”

After a subsequent argument with FBI HQ and a CIA supervisor…

“If this guy [Almihdhar] is in the country, it’s not because he’s going to ****ing Disneyland!”

Upon being denied permission to pursue a criminal investigation…

“Whatever has happened to this—someday someone will die—and wall or not—the public will not understand why we were not more effective and throwing every resource we had at certain ‘problems’. Let’s hope the [Justice Department’s] National Security Law Unit will stand behind their decisions then, especially since the biggest threat to us now, UBL [Osama bin Laden], is getting the most ‘protection’.”

At seeing Almihdhar’s name on one of the passenger flight manifests after 9/11…

“This is the same Almihdhar we’ve been talking about for three months!”

As you can see, the FBI were going ballistic about the situation.

It was not 'Al Qaeda' that prevented them taking action.

[Q24]

It's very simple - take a recording you know Bin Laden made. Run it through a voice analyzer. Then take another recording you are suspicious of and do the same. If they don't match, come back and let me know about it. Otherwise, they are the same person.

That is exactly what the scientists in the first link I gave did - the recordings did not match.

And what do you think of the inaccurate American translation of the 2001 videotape?

They are speaking of just the ONE recording dating back in 2002..and that proves.....? Just because you have one fake recording, doesn't provide any real evidence that Bin laddin was dead

That proves at least one audio tape was fake.

So why should we accept the rest?

And no bin Laden was not dead as it turns out, he's been locked-down in this compound in Pakistan.

[Wookietim]

Yes, a mass of evidence that the intelligence services, both U.S. and foreign, were crawling all over the 9/11 operation. The FBI were aware of two of the terrorists inside the country three months prior to 9/11, were fully aware of the threat and wanted to move in - they were prevented by a higher authority.

Oh where to start? The comments of FBI agent Steve Bongardt: -

June 2001, apparently in connection to the USS Cole bombing…

“What’s the story with the Almihdhar information, when is it going to get passed, do we have anything yet, when is it going to get passed?”

August 2001, upon receiving an e-mail from FBI HQ…

“Dina, you got to be kidding me! Almihdhar is in the country?”

After a subsequent argument with FBI HQ and a CIA supervisor…

“If this guy [Almihdhar] is in the country, it’s not because he’s going to ****ing Disneyland!”

Upon being denied permission to pursue a criminal investigation…

“Whatever has happened to this—someday someone will die—and wall or not—the public will not understand why we were not more effective and throwing every resource we had at certain ‘problems’. Let’s hope the [Justice Department’s] National Security Law Unit will stand behind their decisions then, especially since the biggest threat to us now, UBL [Osama bin Laden], is getting the most ‘protection’.”

At seeing Almihdhar’s name on one of the passenger flight manifests after 9/11…

“This is the same Almihdhar we’ve been talking about for three months!”

As you can see, the FBI were going ballistic about the situation.

It was not 'Al Qaeda' that prevented them taking action.

The question is not about what prevented them from taking action, the question is who was responsible. So far you have not presented evidence saying it was not Al Queda...