The Book of Veles

[Abramelin]

Hello all,

I have been participating in the Oera Linda thread for like 310 pages now, and all we do is throw posts at eachother (based on archeology, etymology, linguistics, legends, genetics, geology, and whatnot), but never seem able to come to a final conclusion.

By accident I found another interesting "ancient manuscript", and it's called the "Book of Veles".

+++

According to Book of Veles, in 10th century BC ("thirteen hundred years before Ermanaric"), pra-Slavic tribes lived in the "land of seven rivers beyond the sea" (possibly corresponding to Semirechye, southeastern Kazakhstan). The book describes migration of Slavs through Syria and eventually into Carpathian mountains, during the course of which they were briefly enslaved by the king "Nabsur" (Nabonassar?). They settle in Carpathian mountains in 5th century BC ("fifteen hundred years before Dir"). Several centuries appear to pass without much commotion. 4th century is described in some detail: during this time Slavs fought a number of wars with Goths, Huns, Greeks, and Romans. Many references to Ermanaric and his relatives are present (placing this section of Book of Veles in the same historical context as the story of Jonakr's sons, referenced in numerous European legends and sagas). Slavs eventually emerged victorious. The period of 5th to 9th centuries is described briefly; Khazars and Bulgars are mentioned.

The book ends with Slavic lands descending into disarray and falling under Norman rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Veles

Some other links to websites discussing this manuscript:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABook_of_Veles

http://www.omniglot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=251

http://www.day.kiev.ua/256365/

http://bearinahat.blogspot.com/2008/12/book-of-veles.html

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EDIT:

As far as I know, no English translation is available online.

So I hope those who are able to read Cyrillic and understand Slavic languages are willing to take part in this thread.

I for one would be very interested to hear their opinions, but foremost, their translations into English of this manuscript.

.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Abramelin

[Soul Kitchen]

The book describes migration of Slavs through Syria and eventually into Carpathian mountains, during the course of which they were briefly enslaved by the king "Nabsur" (Nabonassar?).

For some reason, upon reasoning that I imagined people enslaved by a dinosaur. "Nabonassaur" or "Nabonassaurus". lol

[The Puzzler]

A literary forgery. lol

What!? The book was allegedly discovered in 1919 and lost in 1941. It is widely held by scholars to be a forgery made in the 1940s–1950s or, which is less likely, in the early 19th century. The main decisive evidence is the language of the text which is a mixture of different modern Slavic languages with erroneous and invented forms and no regular grammar.

Shudder, deja vu...

I know, Halbertsma and Grimm's grandchildren MUST have hoaxed this up.

5th line down Abe, in the middle, looks like the azzer symbol we looked at before, next to the triangle.

Part of it says "We are Rus".

Seriously, here is what it says on the same Wiki page you linked, it appears to be some sort of English translation...

Excerpts[edit] Plank 2/BWe were forced to retreat to woods and live as hunters and fishermen. So we could

get away from danger. We survived one darkness and started to build cities

and houses everywhere. After the second darkness there was great frost and we moved

to south for many places there were grassy ... and then Romei were taking our cattle

at a good price and were true to their word. We went

to southern ... greengrassland and had a lot of cattle ...

[edit] From Plank 7/AEnemies are not as numerous as we are, for we are Rus' and they are not.

[edit] Plank 11/AWe pray and bow to the first Triglav and to him we sing a great glory.

We praise Svarog, grandfather of gods who is to whole gods' kin forefather

and creator of everything living, eternal spring that flows in the summer

and everywhere and in winter and never it freezes. And with that living water he nourishes

and life gives to us until we reach the blessed fields of paradise. And to god Perun, the thunderer, god of battle and fight we say:

"You hold us in life by neverending turning of the circle and lead to path

of Prav through battles to Great Trizna". And all who got killed in the battle -

may they live forever in the Perun's regiment. To god Svetovid glory we

are exalting for he is the god of Prav and Jav and to him we sing the song for he is the light

with which we see the world. We are looking and in Jav we are, and he from Nav

guards us and therefore praise we sing him. We sing and dance to him and call

god of ours to Earth, Sun and stars constantly in light keeps.

And glory all to Svetovid, god of ours that

hearts ours opens for us to admit bad deeds ours

and to good we turn. May he hug us like children for this has been said:

what is created with half of the mind could not be seen,

for it is a great secret how can Svarog be at the same time both Perun and Svetovid.

Two beings in skies Belobog and Crnobog are

And both of them Svarog holds and commands them.

After them come Hors, Veles and Stribog and then Visenj, Lelj and Letic.

[edit] From Plank 26/B...As time passes, we come to the blue river as time ours

is not endless. There we meet

forefathers our and mothers that in Svarga herds are grazing and trusses

fastening. Their life is just as ours, only there are no Huns nor

Greeks...

[Abramelin]

Puzz, "Part of it says "We are Rus", that appears to be a wrong translation, according to someone in one of the other links I posted.

Now we are all at a disadvantage, only those who can actually read the text can help out here.

I have serached for quite some time, but every online text of that book is in Slavic language (Russian).

So unless no one speaking Russian or Slavic, and is able to read Cyrillic, shows up, this thread will die soon.

++

Yes, I saw he symbol, and it looks a lot like some Cyrillic letter.

.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

For some reason, upon reasoning that I imagined people enslaved by a dinosaur. "Nabonassaur" or "Nabonassaurus". lol

I thought, "What the hell??", but then I got it: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabonassar

Lol.

[The Puzzler]

The translation "for we are Russians" is wrong and even preposterous.

The correct translation at best would "for we are Rus' or... we are Ruthenians."

The concept of Russia ["Rossiya"] did not exist in the protoSlavic time of the alleged creation of the document.

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Sep 29, 2008 Swandiver wrote:

Agree.

I think , the translation "for we are Russians" made for English readers.

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/russia/T6SDBPAHR39OSHNKL

This just sounds so OLBish...

This analysis leads us to a definite conclusion: we are dealing with an artificial language, "invented" by a person unacquainted with the history of Slavic languages and one who couldn't create his own.. language system."

[Abramelin]

The translation "for we are Russians" is wrong and even preposterous.

The correct translation at best would "for we are Rus' or... we are Ruthenians."

The concept of Russia ["Rossiya"] did not exist in the protoSlavic time of the alleged creation of the document.

----

Sep 29, 2008 Swandiver wrote:

Agree.

I think , the translation "for we are Russians" made for English readers.

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/russia/T6SDBPAHR39OSHNKL

This just sounds so OLBish...

This analysis leads us to a definite conclusion: we are dealing with an artificial language, "invented" by a person unacquainted with the history of Slavic languages and one who couldn't create his own.. language system."

Another thing: we have talked about Prussia in the OLB thread, and how it got his name according to legend: from a mythical Alan chieftain coming from Denmark, Widewuto and his brother Bruteno (.. "for we are Rus' or... we are Ruthenians." ).

http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/08/ajb/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Widewuto.html

.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Svarog is mentioned in the translation..

The only mention of Svarog comes from the Hypatian Codex, a 15th-century compilation of several much older documents from the Ipatiev Monastery in Russia. It contains a Slavic translation of an original Greek manuscript of John Malalas from the 6th century. The complete passage, reconstructed from several manuscripts, translates as follows:

"(Then) began his reign Feosta (Hephaestus), whom the Egyptians called Svarog … during his rule, from the heavens fell the smith’s prongs and weapons were forged for the first time; before that, (people) fought with clubs and stones. Feosta also commanded the women that they should have only a single husband… and that is why Egyptians called him Svarog… After him ruled his son, his name was the Sun, and they called him Dažbog… Sun tzar, son of Svarog, this is Dažbog."

In the Greek text, the names of gods are Hephaestus and Helios. Apparently, the unknown Russian translator tried to re-tell the entire story (set in Egypt) by replacing the names of classical deities with those that were better known to his readers.[1] It is uncertain to what extent the Greeks gods were thought to resemble their Slavic counterparts.

Furthermore, this passage has raised quite a few theories about family relations between Slavic gods. If one assumes that Svarog was believed to be Dažbog’s father, the question arises of his relation with Svarožič, another deity who is mentioned as a god of fire and war in several other medieval documents describing the beliefs of pagan Slavs.[citation needed] Svarožič is simply a diminutive of Svarog’s name, i.e., "little Svarog", which implies he was considered a child of Svarog.[citation needed] Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov and Vladimir Toporov proposed a reconstruction of this mythical genealogy, claiming that Svarog, a deity of fire and the forge similar to the Greek Hephaestus, had two sons: Dažbog, who represented the fire in sky (i.e., the Sun), and Svarožič, who symbolised the flame on earth, in the forge.[1] Henrik Lovmjanjski, however, theorised that Svarog was a Slavic sky god and personification of daylight sky itself, possibly a continuation of Proto-Indo-European *Dyēus Ph2ter, while Svarožič and solar Dažbog were one and the same deity, although he concluded that two other aspects of Svarožič also existed: fiery Svarožič, as in the Sun (mentioned in Russian medieval manuscripts), and lunar Svarožič, associated with the Moon.[2] Franjo Ledić, on the other hand, simply assumed that Svarog and Dažbog are one and the same god.[3]

Eastern Slavic sources also mention Svarožič as a deity, there associated with fire. According to Thietmar of Merseburg, Svarožič (Latinized Zuarasici) was worshipped by a tribe of Ratars in the city of Ridegost (Rethra).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svarog

The Egyptians knew him as Svarog and he introduced one on one marriage and this must relate to his name - I can see swear maybe in it, like to swear an oath in marriage but I won't bog down in words here, I know you're hoping some else comes to the party.

He was Hephaestus, so he may have been Ptah too and the father of the Athenians. Svarog's son who ruled is the Sun. His name was Sun tsar - doesn't that sound like sun star to you?

All very interesting I must say.

[Abramelin]

I hope you didn't overlook this part:

"In the Greek text, the names of gods are Hephaestus and Helios. Apparently, the unknown Russian translator tried to re-tell the entire story (set in Egypt) by replacing the names of classical deities with those that were better known to his readers.[1] It is uncertain to what extent the Greeks gods were thought to resemble their Slavic counterparts."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svarog

[The Puzzler]

I know I said I wouldn't but I thought this was just worth clarifying.

I thought Svarog might be swear as in oath of marriage because it sounds like it and the word would be paramount to what the bind is all about -

swear

O.E. swerian "take an oath" (class VI strong verb; past tense swor, pp. sworen), from P.Gmc. *swarjanan, from root *swar- (cf. O.S. swerian, O.N. sverja, Dan. sverge, O.Fris. swera, M.Du. swaren, O.H.G. swerien, Ger. schwören, Goth. swaren "to swear"), from PIE base *swer- "to speak, say" (cf. O.C.S. svara "quarrel").

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=swear

The name Svarog by the Egyptians seems to mean swear relative to Old Norse or Danish.

Feosta (Fo?) - this is Hephaestus "whom the Egyptians called Svarog"

The Egyptians termed him this name which means 'swear - an oath' - it possibly should be what Ptah really means.

During his rule, from the Heavens fell the smith's prongs and weapons were forged for the first time. Before that people fought with clubs and stones.

Then there's Tubal-Cain, often mentioned by Slim, who is said to be the first smith...

In Hebrew his name is תובל קין. In the King James Version this is rendered as Tubalcain, in the New International Version it is Tubal-Cain, while in the English Standard Version it is Tubal-cain. Rashi interprets the name to mean "he who spices the craft of Cain."[1]

It is not clear why he has a double-barrelled name. Gordon Wenham suggests that the name "Cain" means "smith" (which would anticipate the remarks about his metal-working skill), or that he is called "Tubal Cain" in order to distinguish him from the other Tubal, the son of Japheth.[2]

Henry Morris suggests that etymologically, his name is "the progenitor of the name of the Roman God Vulcan."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubal-cain

SO, we pretty much have Tubal-Cain, Vulcan, Ptah, Hephaestus, Adranis (of Mt Etna) and also Svarog as this metalworker God of possible swearing oaths of marriage.

This could hold true since the Greek Olympic Gods are full of marriages but Hephaestus himself is married, to Aphrodite, the quintessential woman.

During his time a Pheathon event occurred and from the sky fell the requirements to then forge metal. It might have been the iron itself in the meteorites and the accompanying fire too, maybe they saw melted iron or something and realised what they could do with it.

Ptah as creator is this kind, the same as Hephaestus and why the Athenians and Saites are the same - they both have this history of father Vulcan and Gaia.

Their child was Erichthonius of Athens who was guarded by a serpent.

As for Svarog, his son is the Sun - the Sun-tsar - the Sun King. Suntsar - it starts to sound like Saturn now - the Sun star - this was Helios/Saturn and Dazbog.

Dazbog goes on to be a God in the realm of the Rus.

Dabog (or Daboh) is mentioned in the Primary Chronicle, a history of early Kievan Rus' as one of seven gods whose statues Prince Vladimir the Great erected in front of his palace in Kiev in 980, when he came to the throne. The name is also mentioned in the Hypatian Codex, as well as in the medieval Russian epic The Tale of Igor's Campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%C5%BEbog

Earlier on I noticed a discrepency in Helios, that is, this God is made out generally in Greek myth to be male. But Sunna and co are ALL females, the Sun is always female. I pondered this and just read this while thinking more on the above as well.

This is in fact a Slavic translation of an original Greek manuscript of Malalin from 6th century. In Greek text, the names of gods are Hephaestus and Helios. Apparently, the unknown Russian translator tried to re-tell the entire story (set in Egypt) by replacing the names of classical deities with those that were better known to his readers.[3] One can only hope that he indeed replaced the names of Greek gods with their fitting Slavic counterparts; however, at least one issue remains problematic. In all Slavic languages, the word for Sun, Sunce, is of neutral or feminine gender, never masculine. Also, in Baltic mythology, which is most akin to Slavic, Sun is a female deity, Saule, while the Moon is a male one. The same pattern can be observed in folklore of many Slavic nations, where the Sun is most often identified with mother or a bride, and Moon with father or husband, their children being the stars. Where exactly this leaves Dabog as a possible male solar deity of Slavic pantheon remains questionable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%C5%BEbog

Dazbog might mot be the Sun, he might be the Sun star, a possible reference to the Pole Star or a male orientated people made the Sun a male or at a very early time the Sun was male in myth.

Trizna = Troy...?

And to god Perun, the thunderer, god of battle and fight we say:

"You hold us in life by neverending turning of the circle and lead to path

of Prav through battles to Great Trizna". And all who got killed in the battle -

may they live forever in the Perun's regiment.

Never-ending turning of the circle and the lead to path - it conjures an image of the labyrinth in my head, always relative to Troy.

Trizna was a funeral feast which, as a part of Slavic religion, was made for distinguished members of society before their cremation.

In villages in Bosnia, name trzan or trzna is used for a place in the middle of a village (more rarely near a crossroad) used for gatherings, which is considered to be derived from trizna.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trizna

A long shot but certainly custom was made to feast for days before cremation at Troy. They even stop the fighting to do this for Patroclus.

Edited May 6, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

I think it would be wise if we first read up on Slavic mythology, and here is a nice blog about it:

http://russianculture.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/slavic-mythology-svarog-%d1%81%d0%b2%d0%b0%d1%80%d0%be%d0%b3/

http://russianculture.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/slavic-mythology-perun-%d0%bf%d0%b5%d1%80%d1%83%d0%bd/

[The Puzzler]

Valhalla then, would also be a rendition of this.

The Viking's hall of the fallen warriors was where the men who fought at Troy were, in death.

If Asaland is Troy and that is Odin's realm

From the East (thru Syria), from the land of the 7 rivers..hmm..??

Punjab - the land of five rivers - lies in North West India. In the Vedic Era, Punjab was called ‘Sapat Sindu’. Sapat Sindu means the land of seven rivers - the Sindu, Jehlum, Ravi, Chenab, Beas, Satluj and Yamuna.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=86180098019

According to Book of Veles, in 10th century BC ("thirteen hundred years before Ermanaric"), pra-Slavic tribes lived in the "land of seven rivers beyond the sea" (possibly corresponding to Semirechye, southeastern Kazakhstan). The book describes migration of Slavs through Syria and eventually into Carpathian mountains, during the course of which they were briefly enslaved by the king "Nabsur" (Nabonassar?). They settle in Carpathian mountains in 5th century BC ("fifteen hundred years before Dir"). Several centuries appear to pass without much commotion. 4th century is described in some detail: during this time Slavs fought a number of wars with Goths, Huns, Greeks, and Romans. Many references to Ermanaric and his relatives are present (placing this section of Book of Veles in the same historical context as the story of Jonakr's sons, referenced in numerous European legends and sagas). Slavs eventually emerged victorious. The period of 5th to 9th centuries is described briefly; Khazars and Bulgars are mentioned.

The book ends with Slavic lands descending into disarray and falling under Norman rule.

Around 750BC they would have been enslaved by Nabonassar if Nabsur is him. This would have thrown them right in the middle of Babylon.

Babylon would have seemed like a Paradise to them, it was so fertile...the area WAS Eden.

In a well-known description of ancient Babylonia, Berossus (or Bel-re'ušunu, to use his real name) says that

the land lies between the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers. It produces wild barley, chickpea, and sesame, and even, in its marshlands, edible roots, called gongai. These roots are the equal of barley in nutrition. The land also produces dates, apples, and all sorts of other fruit, as well as fish and birds, field birds as well as waterfowl.

So great is the fertility of the grain fields that they normally produce crops of two-hundredfold, and in an exceptional year as much as three-hundredfold. The blades of wheat and barley are at least three inches wide. As for millet and sesame, I will not say to what an astonishing size they grow, though I know well enough; but I also know that people who have not been to Babylonia have refused to believe even what I have already said about its fertility.

[Histories 1.193;

tr. Aubrey de Sélincourt]

Of course, this is exaggerated, and it should be noted that Herodotus does not claim that he was in Babylonia. Yet, his statement shows that people believed that the alluvial plains of the Lower Euphrates and Tigris were extremely fertile, and this is correct, although the yields were typically fifteenfold, which is, compared to the Mediterranean world, astonishing

http://www.livius.org/ba-bd/babylon/babylonia.html

[The Puzzler]

I think it would be wise if we first read up on Slavic mythology, and here is a nice blog about it:

http://russianculture.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/slavic-mythology-svarog-%d1%81%d0%b2%d0%b0%d1%80%d0%be%d0%b3/

http://russianculture.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/slavic-mythology-perun-%d0%bf%d0%b5%d1%80%d1%83%d0%bd/

I've already read about them before when I found Waralden in Sami mythology and compared the names to other Slavic, Lithuanian and Greek Gods. I thought I made a post here about it, I don't blame you if you missed it. Remember Martins as Martinus/Mars in Rome I thought and several others, Meness was there as a moon deity. These people were wolves and were probably in Rome as Etruscans bringing up Romulus, Lupa.

Anyway, I'm onto Svarog. Remember all my posts about Rod. There are various modern theories about the supreme Slavic deity being Rod or Svarog,

So, it appears they came in from the Punjab - to Babylon, from the East, to a place like Eden, then head to the Carpathians, via Syria (and Troy), then to Europe as the Slavic story, they are known as Rus. Their religion was in Egypt as the creator Ptah which meant to swear, obey an oath (of marriage).

The pre-Slavic tribes in the Punjab may have arrived there at a prior time, possibly in the Aryan 'invasion' or even with the Frisians (if that be true) - then they left, it's not necessary for them to have been indigenous to the land of the 7 rivers in the first place.

[Abramelin]

I've already read about them before when I found Waralden in Sami mythology and compared the names to other Slavic, Lithuanian and Greek Gods. I thought I made a post here about it, I don't blame you if you missed it. Remember Martins as Martinus/Mars in Rome I thought and several others, Meness was there as a moon deity. These people were wolves and were probably in Rome as Etruscans bringing up Romulus, Lupa.

Anyway, I'm onto Svarog. Remember all my posts about Rod. There are various modern theories about the supreme Slavic deity being Rod or Svarog,

So, it appears they came in from the Punjab - to Babylon, from the East, to a place like Eden, then head to the Carpathians, via Syria (and Troy), then to Europe as the Slavic story, they are known as Rus. Their religion was in Egypt as the creator Ptah which meant to swear, obey an oath (of marriage).

The pre-Slavic tribes in the Punjab may have arrived there at a prior time, possibly in the Aryan 'invasion' or even with the Frisians (if that be true) - then they left, it's not necessary for them to have been indigenous to the land of the 7 rivers in the first place.

Uhmm.. the Punjab is the 'place of 5 rivers'...

There is a 'place of seven rivers' : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhetysu

"Zhetysu (Kazakh: Жетісу, pronounced [ʒi̯ɘtɘsʊw] meaning "seven rivers"; also transcribed Zhetisu, Jetisuw, Jetysu, Jeti-su, Jity-su, Жетысу, Джетысу, etc.) is a historical name of a part of Russian Turkestan, corresponding to the South-Eastern part of modern Kazakhstan. It owes its name, meaning "seven rivers" (literally "seven waters") in Kazakh, to the rivers which flow from the south-east into Lake Balkhash."

A map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lakebalkhashbasinmap.png

.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Uhmm.. the Punjab is the 'place of 5 rivers'...

There is a 'place of seven rivers' : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhetysu

"Zhetysu (Kazakh: Жетісу, pronounced [ʒi̯ɘtɘsʊw] meaning "seven rivers"; also transcribed Zhetisu, Jetisuw, Jetysu, Jeti-su, Jity-su, Жетысу, Джетысу, etc.) is a historical name of a part of Russian Turkestan, corresponding to the South-Eastern part of modern Kazakhstan. It owes its name, meaning "seven rivers" (literally "seven waters") in Kazakh, to the rivers which flow from the south-east into Lake Balkhash."

A map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lakebalkhashbasinmap.png

.

Maybe you missed this part:

Punjab - the land of five rivers - lies in North West India. In the Vedic Era, Punjab was called ‘Sapat Sindu’. Sapat Sindu means the land of seven rivers - the Sindu, Jehlum, Ravi, Chenab, Beas, Satluj and Yamuna.

http://www.facebook....gid=86180098019

In the VEDIC era it was called the land of 7 rivers.

But yes, yours is also a land of 7 rivers.

[The Puzzler]

OK, I'll go on your land of seven rivers in south east Kazakhstan - around the Don and Volga and looking on my map (Asaland) I have my bearings, that Lake Balkhash is huge, half is fresh and half is saline - the basin looks to me like it could flood and if people lived there they could have easily been flooded at one time and that area is now underwater. The whole top of the Caspian Sea is a huge depression.

To go through Syria they must have come under the Black Sea through the Caucasus.

India would have been quite interesting too.

[Abramelin]

Maybe you missed this part:

Punjab - the land of five rivers - lies in North West India. In the Vedic Era, Punjab was called ‘Sapat Sindu’. Sapat Sindu means the land of seven rivers - the Sindu, Jehlum, Ravi, Chenab, Beas, Satluj and Yamuna.

http://www.facebook....gid=86180098019

In the VEDIC era it was called the land of 7 rivers.

But yes, yours is also a land of 7 rivers.

Yes, but we are not talking about Vedic times. This is still about The Book of Veles, and it is supposed to date from a later period.

Your link is dead, btw. Here's another one (and with more info): http://www.sadapunjab.com/punjabi/category/punjab-state

( Ah, ok, yes, it is supposed to deal with history from the 7th century BC to 9th century AD )

.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

And don't you wish too that some Russians and other Slavic speaking/reading people showed up in this thread??

At least we could start talking about the Book of Veles, LOL.

[Helen of Annoy]

Interesting topic, only I have absolutely no time for it right now

Just few random things:

Dažbog is the Rainmaker, in some Croatian dialects word for rain is not “kiša”, as you would expect, but “dažd”.

The sigil you can see in my signature is “gromoviti znak” (sign of thunder), and it belongs to Perun, the God of Thunder (among many other things).

Svarog is not the supreme deity, though he is the Sun God and Svarožići are his sons, there are usually seven of them, seven rays of sun. Noun “Sunce” (Sun) is neutral in my language, Svarog is obviously male, simply because he is like Sun, god of sun, but not physically the Sun itself.

For this plane of existence, the bosses are Perun and Veles, the Eagle (also the Bear) and the Snake etc.

The book of Veles is considered to be a forgery, or in the best case a „modern“ copy of original text. The original was said to be written in old Slavic runic script, and both are officially lost, because Slavs used to write on wooden planks (small planks, thin and light, not floor board size, and they used to be tied into some form of wooden books) which disintegrated over centuries and also, early Christian missionars were fond of burning such things.

It’s possible there was the original, and it’s possible the one that made a copy not only used the “new” Cyrillic script, but also tried to “modernize” the language. Only there’s no evidence for that.

The seven rivers could be actual rivers in the place of origin, but could be some form of symbolic, since there were seven siblings that led the migration for example (five brothers and two sisters). On the other hand, maybe there were seven leaders to honour the seven rivers...

[Abramelin]

Interesting topic, only I have absolutely no time for it right now

Just few random things:

Dažbog is the Rainmaker, in some Croatian dialects word for rain is not “kiša”, as you would expect, but “dažd”.

The sigil you can see in my signature is “gromoviti znak” (sign of thunder), and it belongs to Perun, the God of Thunder (among many other things).

Svarog is not the supreme deity, though he is the Sun God and Svarožići are his sons, there are usually seven of them, seven rays of sun. Noun “Sunce” (Sun) is neutral in my language, Svarog is obviously male, simply because he is like Sun, god of sun, but not physically the Sun itself.

For this plane of existence, the bosses are Perun and Veles, the Eagle (also the Bear) and the Snake etc.

The book of Veles is considered to be a forgery, or in the best case a „modern“ copy of original text. The original was said to be written in old Slavic runic script, and both are officially lost, because Slavs used to write on wooden planks (small planks, thin and light, not floor board size, and they used to be tied into some form of wooden books) which disintegrated over centuries and also, early Christian missionars were fond of burning such things.

It’s possible there was the original, and it’s possible the one that made a copy not only used the “new” Cyrillic script, but also tried to “modernize” the language. Only there’s no evidence for that.

The seven rivers could be actual rivers in the place of origin, but could be some form of symbolic, since there were seven siblings that led the migration for example (five brothers and two sisters). On the other hand, maybe there were seven leaders to honour the seven rivers...

Great, and thanks Helen !!

But now the big question: have you read the Book of Veles, and do you happen to know if there is a translation in English available on line??

And if not, at least are you able to read it in its original language? I hope so, so we can ask you the skirt from your back, LOL.

[Helen of Annoy]

No, I haven’t tried to read it yet, I could try, though the piece you posted looks really messy. It resembles Cyrillic, but I have to focus on it and I’ll do that tomorrow. I simply have no time tonight.

I'll also search for translation, if I find Croatian or Serbian or similar translation I’ll translate it in English, gladly. The only problem is, if there was something like that available on line, I'd know about it by now. But you never know... I just need some free time! Damn it!

See you tomorrow! Post links to any version you can find

Edited May 6, 2011 by Helen of Annoy

[Abramelin]

No, I haven’t tried to read it yet, I could try, though the piece you posted looks really messy. It resembles Cyrillic, but I have to focus on it and I’ll do that tomorrow. I simply have no time tonight.

I'll also search for translation, if I find Croatian or Serbian or similar translation I’ll translate it in English, gladly. The only problem is, if there was something like that available on line, I'd know about it by now. But you never know... I just need some free time! Damn it!

See you tomorrow! Post links to any version you can find

Ah, you mean the photo-copy of one of those wooden planks.

But I meant the transliteration into common Cyrillic script.

OK, take your time, and we hope (well, I do) that you are willing to contribute to this thread with your translations.

If not, we will be wading through the same endless swamp as we did with the OLB thread.

[Helen of Annoy]

I can’t resist. I’m so late. It’s all your fault

Just that short quote you posted:

Daščica 11a [uredi]

Molimo se i klanjamo prvom Triglavu i njemu veliku slavu pojemo. Hvalimo Svaroga, djeda božjeg, koji je svemu rodu božjem začetnik i tvorac je svega živog, viječni izvor koji teče ljeti i svuda, a zimi i nikada ne mrzne... A bogu Perunu, gromovniku, bogu bitke i borbe govorimo: ti oživljavaš nas neprestanim okretanjem kruga i vodiš stazom prava kroz bitke do Velike Trizne... bogu Svetovidu slavu uznosimo, jer on je bog Prava i Java i njemu pojemo jer je svijetlost kroz koju vidimo svijet. Gledamo i u Javu opstajemo, a on nas od Nava čuva i stoga mu hvalu pojemo. Slava sva Svetovidu, bogu našem što otvara srca naša da priznamo loše postupke i dobru se okrenemo. Dva bićja u nebu sadržana Bjelobog i Crnobog su, a njih oba Svarog drži i zapoveda.

Dobavljeno iz "http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velesova_knjiga"

Plank 11a

We pray and bow to first Triglav (Threeheaded One) and to him we sing the glory. We praise Svarog, grandfather of god, who is the origin of all kin and creator of everything that lives, eternal source that flows in the summer and everywhere, and in the winter it never freezes... And to god Perun, the thunderer, god of battle and strife we say: you make us alive by never stopping revolving of circle and lead us on the path of justice through battles to the Great Trizna... to god Svetovid we elevate the glory, because he is the god of Prav and Jav and to him we sing because he is the light through which we see the world. We look and we continue to exist in Jav, and he protects us from the Nav and therefore we sing the glory to him. All the glory to Svetovid, our god who opens our hearts to admit our wrongdoings and turn ourselves to good. Two entities in the heavens contained are Bjelobog and Crnobog, and both of them are under Svarog’s hold and command.

I have Serbian translation, which means you'll have English tomorrow, posted here. I hope no one has copyrights on it

Now I'm seriously out of here for today.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Helen of Annoy

[Abramelin]

I cant resist. Im so late. Its all your fault

Just that short quote you posted:

Plank 11a

We pray and bow to first Triglav (Threeheaded One) and to him we sing the glory. We praise Svarog, grandfather of god, who is the origin of all kin and creator of everything that lives, eternal source that flows in the summer and everywhere, and in the winter it never freezes... And to god Perun, the thunderer, god of battle and strife we say: you make us alive by never stopping revolving of circle and lead us on the path of justice through battles to the Great Trizna... to god Svetovid we elevate the glory, because he is the god of Prav and Jav and to him we sing because he is the light through which we see the world. We look and we continue to exist in Jav, and he protects us from the Nav and therefore we sing the glory to him. All the glory to Svetovid, our god who opens our hearts to admit our wrongdoings and turn ourselves to good. Two entities in the heavens contained are Bjelobog and Crnobog, and both of them are under Svarogs hold and command.

I have Serbian translation, which means you'll have English tomorrow, posted here. I hope no one has copyrights on it

Now I'm seriously out of here for today.

Thanks Helen, and using your text brought me to a bit more:

Excerpts:

Plank 2/B

We were forced to retreat to woods and live as hunters and fishermen. So we could

get away from danger. We survived one darkness and started to build cities

and houses everywhere. After the second darkness there was great frost and we moved

to south for many places there were grassy ... and then Romei were taking our cattle

at a good price and were true to their word. We went

to southern ... green grassland and had a lot of cattle ...

Plank 7/A

Enemies are not as numerous as we are, for we are Russians and they are not.

Plank 11/A

We pray and bow to the first Triglav and to him we sing a great glory.

We praise Svarog, grandfather of gods who is to whole gods' kin forefather

and creator of everything living, eternal spring that flows in the summer

and everywhere and in winter and never it freezes. And with that living water he nourishes

and life gives to us until we reach the blessed fields of paradise. And to god Perun, the Thunderer, god of battle and fight we say:

"You hold us in life by never-ending turning of the circle and lead to path

of Prav through battles to Great Trizn". And all who got killed in the battle -

may they live forever in the Perun's regiment. To god Svetovid glory we

are exalting for he is the god of Prav and Jav and to him we sing the song for he is the light

with which we see the world. We are looking and in Jav we are, and he from Nav

guards us and therefore praise we sing him. We sing and dance to him and call

god of ours to Earth, Sun and stars constantly in light keeps.

And glory all to Svetovid, god of ours that

hearts ours opens for us to admit bad deeds ours

and to good we turn. May he hug us like children for this has been said:

what is created with half of the mind could not be seen,

for it is a great secret how can Svarog be at the same time both Perun and Svetovid.

Two beings in skies Belobog and Crnobog are

And both of them Svarog holds and commands them.

After them come Horos, Veles and Stribog and then Visenj, Lelj and Letic.

Plank 26/B

...As time passes, we come to the blue river as time ours

is not endless. There we meet

forefathers our and mothers that in Svarga herds are grazing and trusses

fastening. Their life is just as ours, only there are no Huns nor

Greeks...http://slavija.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1087&page=1#8306

++

EDIT:

Damn, it is not more, it is your text with what we already knew, jeesh.

.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Some links that may be of help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABook_of_Veles

http://www.experiencefestival.com/book_of_veles