Randi's Challenge

[ShadowSot]

Because most skeptics are people who want to believe, but want evidence.

After all, the market is a bit crowded with charlatans.

[Sakari]

I don't expect you to believe, it makes no difference to me. What my question for you is, why do you care if others claim to have abilities? If I don't care about your opinion, why do you care about mine so much? lol It just seems silly to me. No offense.

I already work with 2 different Universities. They respect my anomynimity and help me find ways to cope, since poltergeist activity of this nature is mostly emotionally based.

No offense taken, and none given either

I care because when people make claims such as this, you have to admit, these are some pretty huge claims.I like to see a huge claim like this backed up with evidence.

There was a Movie with John Travolta , and it kind of showed what would really happen if someone had these " abilities"...People would not hide them, they would want to share them, brag about them, let others see them. ( kind of like posting a claim on a forum, but for real )....Not for attention so much, but to show that it can be done, and to help people.....This does not happen, ever.

Another reason I care, I am all ways curious why people make these claims, what makes them want the attention, what makes them want it so bad?Do they believe what they claim?

And my biggest is, why do some people believe these claims in the first place?Claims not backed up by anything other than a post claiming to be able to do it.

Then there is the fraud part of it, I hate frauds, I hate people that take advantage of others.

And the smallest and least likely part, maybe some day someone will actually prove their ability, and I may get to witness it....Doubt it.

Leads me to my question, you have a University researching this?.....No offense, I do not believe this one bit....Let me rephrase this, if one is researching this, they are not seeing any results at all, if they were this could be Pulitzer prize stuff.I have yet to find any University or Science spending much time on any of this, other than the Psychological side.

So, again, no offense, If I say I can move things with my mind, I am going to damn sure show the world my ability......And guess what, I would not have to go work this graveyard shift tonight if I had such ability, the money would be pouring in, and I guarantee, so would the News about the ability to the World.....And not on a forum.

edited to add :

I just caught this :

There are more serious places to discuss these things and share evidence. I won't share with people who already have their minds made up and will rabidly defend their ideologies.

I saw this also in a Yowie forum.....people claiming they have evidence, and they can prove it.......The kicker is, they will only show it to the " people in the know", and the " believers".....

So, you have the evidence, you can back it up, but only to people who are willing to believe you.....Nice cop out, well no it isn't.

And you stated you care less if people believe you?

Go use your ability for some good, really show a University you have this ability.Stop posting about it, go use it for the good of mankind, and for yourself.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Sakari

[SolarPlexus]

I don't expect you to believe, it makes no difference to me.

What my question for you is, why do you care if others claim to have abilities?

Because pathological pseudo-skepticism is based on attitude

edit: typo

Edited June 11, 2011 by SolarPlexus

[ShadowSot]

Because pathological pseudo-skepticism is based on attitude

edit: typo

Most of us just got tired of being fooled.

If I understand you correctly, the Challenge is not scientific because Randi is in charge of the Foundation, right?

[Carrie White]

sakari, looks like an interesting movie, but I am not sure if it is true for how all or even most people react when they figure out they have some weirdness going on. I admit, mine is different. I don't claim to have super powers, I just have a poltergeist, which the professors have told me is RSPK, a type of psychokinesis. I don't think I could prove that on a video, but I could if you came to my house and spent the night...but you're a stranger and I don't think you would even feel confortable with that idea. When I was a kid I thought it was ghosts or demons, then I thought I was crazy. After enough witnesses I realized I am not crazy, and I talked to experts. They told me what was happening, and that it happens to normal people all the time. Whether we can control it or not is not known. I know that there are times when I just wanted things to happen and they did, such as the tv turning on or things just flying into my hand when I reach for them. How it happens I don't know, but it is on a nearly daily basis. I don't have proof, just my word. I sounds crazy, and that is why I don't go around showing off. I am a 35 year old mother. It is very important that nobody outside my immediate friends and a few doctors know.

Anyway, that's the biggest reasons I do not go public or make a spectacle of myself, like those people that sit an inch from a psi wheel and move it with the heat of their hands. I'm not stupid. I understand physics and that heat causes air drafts. I hope some day people can talk about this stuff openly, but I only talk about it anomynously because I don't want attention and I am still not 100% sure what it is. Maybe I will never know.

[booNyzarC]

--

After enough witnesses I realized I am not crazy, and I talked to experts. They told me what was happening, and that it happens to normal people all the time.

--

I won't presume whether your story is true or false, but I am very curious about the experts you mention. Would you mind sharing who exactly these experts are and in what field(s) exactly their expertise lies? Are they accredited from a university?

Thanks Carrie.

[Carrie White]

I won't presume whether your story is true or false, but I am very curious about the experts you mention. Would you mind sharing who exactly these experts are and in what field(s) exactly their expertise lies? Are they accredited from a university?

Thanks Carrie.

I don't really feel it is a good idea to share my psychologists and researchers names and places of work with strangers on the internet. They are accredited, prestigious Universities. One is Ivy League. The main researcher that helps me has been studying this phenomenon for decades. I'm not going to go to some "paranormal" group that pretends to be Ghost Hunters on the weekends. It took me long enough just to reach out to these people after reading journal articles they have written. I enjoy my privacy.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Carrie White

[Sakari]

I don't really feel it is a good idea to share my psychologists and researchers names and places of work with strangers on the internet. They are accredited, prestigious Universities. One is Ivy League. The main researcher that helps me has been studying this phenomenon for decades. I'm not going to go to some "paranormal" group that pretends to be Ghost Hunters on the weekends. It took me long enough just to reach out to these people after reading journal articles they have written. I enjoy my privacy.

So are you saying they are keeping their studies top secret also?

That is not normal for Universities..

[Carrie White]

So are you saying they are keeping their studies top secret also?

That is not normal for Universities..

I'm saying it's a matter of confidentiality. Would you like to tell me the name of your doctor? His/ her credentials? The hospital you go to? Besides, I don't care. Anyway, gave you my answer as to why I don't answer Randi's call-out. That's all I have to say for now.

[Leonardo]

I'm saying it's a matter of confidentiality. Would you like to tell me the name of your doctor? His/ her credentials? The hospital you go to? Besides, I don't care. Anyway, gave you my answer as to why I don't answer Randi's call-out. That's all I have to say for now.

If I could stick my oar into this discussion, I would like to ask you, Carrie, whether you feel it is fine for people to remain ignorant, so long as you know?

Forgive me if that question sounds accusatory, but I see no difference in keeping important knowledge to oneself, than hoarding food when those around you are hungry. I don't believe you are such a selfish person, but maybe am not quite convinced in yourself of what this phenomenon you claim to experience actually is?

[Mr. Miyagi]

I'm back, sorry for my absence there for a bit carrie, Solar etc...

Hey guys, I am a skeptic obviously. That doesn't have to be a dirty word. I want this type of thing to be real. I honestly do. However, simple belief is not in the cards for me. Carrie, you speak of a "Unity of everything" or something to that effect and then claim that only a select special few posess an understanding of this. This is not true. We all posess this, whether we are aware of it or not. For myself and others on a similar path, this is related to the concept of Anatta. However, this is not some mystical concept. It is a practical understanding. It is not a concept to be understood and left behind but an ideal to be lived. Once understood it has a profound effect on how you live your life and how you view the world around you. It can take some people 15 minutes to understand it. It can take some people 15 years. It takes constant effort to maintain. Because it is not a concrete concept, differs from person to person, is ever changing and takes awareness to understand that. Some do it without even realizing it. Even... *gasp*... those heathen skeptical athiests!!!

If you truly understood this "Unity of everything" you would understand just how rediculous this "Randi challenge" is, given your extraordinary abilities. It's a straw man to bring up in this context. Your anonymity, worrying about "yourself" isn't even an option.

I'm just looking for tangible results. Belief doesn't enter the equation for me. Give me something practical. Do something for society. Science has taken us to the moon and back. These "abilities" have produced zero practical results for society.

I may seem harsh to you and Solar and you may feel there is some sort animosity from me towards you. Rest assured there is not. No more than the derision you seem to throw at skeptics yourselves at any rate. Being a skeptic is not a bad thing. It doesn't mean that we don't want these abilities to be real. I can assure you that I do in the worst way. But I gotta have something practical. Wishful belief has long since left the equation. Not because of my own perspective but because of that "unity" you speak of. Do something useful. Not for yourselves. Not inspite of yourselves. But because of the wonderful effect you could have upon what Carrie refers to as a "Unity of Everything".

I'm a practical guy, we usually are. "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it."- Siddhartha Gautama.

Give us something useful or get out of the way.

Carrie, if you really are involved in what you say you are then I commend your efforts.

However, I will not believe you until I see some sort of result. Some kind of effect upon the world around us. Maybe even a positive benefit for society.

Sorry.

[Rafterman]

I don't really feel it is a good idea to share my psychologists and researchers names and places of work with strangers on the internet. They are accredited, prestigious Universities. One is Ivy League. The main researcher that helps me has been studying this phenomenon for decades. I'm not going to go to some "paranormal" group that pretends to be Ghost Hunters on the weekends. It took me long enough just to reach out to these people after reading journal articles they have written. I enjoy my privacy.

Interesting that you mention the Ivy League. Just a couple of years ago Princeton closed its PEAR telekenisis/esp lab tha thad been operating since 1979 due to the fact that they never found anything. Too bad you didn't contact them, they could be rolling in the grants and research monies now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/10/science/10princeton.html

[SolarPlexus]

Anyway, gave you my answer as to why I don't answer Randi's call-out.

Smart move.

Supreme Court lawyer explains why he strongly advises psychics and mediums to ignore James Randi's so-called $1 million challenge.

Edited June 13, 2011 by SolarPlexus

[Carrie White]

Funny, I just found this too: Randi's worthless "reward"

Apparantly James Randi is not as confident as his claims would make you believe. He promises to give you an IOU if you prove your claim...and that would be only after he accepts your application. He doesn't accept legit applications.

[Sakari]

Funny, I just found this too: Randi's worthless "reward"

Apparantly James Randi is not as confident as his claims would make you believe. He promises to give you an IOU if you prove your claim...and that would be only after he accepts your application. He doesn't accept legit applications.

Consider the source..( the site )

I urge people to read the applicants, and really read them.Look at how JREF bends over backwards to let the applicants show their abilities to something they agree with.They do work together, and all of the applicants make the same excuses we see here in the end.

Here, I made it easy, straight link to that part... http://forums.randi....isplay.php?f=43

What I find interesting is that people are cutting down this challenge, but yet, no one has ever proven any of these " abilities " to anyone.........IE :

Friends

Family

News Agencies

School Districts

Health Institutes

Skeptics

The Public

Universities

Paranormal TV Shows ( that's a biggie for me considering if anyone wanted to show proof it would be them )

Oprah

Dateline

60 Minutes

Larry King

CNN

Governments

I am sure if it was about not getting the " Million " dollars, there would be more than millions for a person with said abilities.

If the excuse of " I do not want the money " were there, surely just the nature of using said abilities to help hurting people, and to help the World in general would be a big enough cause.

The only place we hear about these claims is on the internet, or on off-beat TV shows, and in the movies.

Truth is, these abilities never come out in reality, and the excuses make no sense at all to why they do not.....

Edited June 18, 2011 by Sakari

[Carrie White]

Consider the source..( the site )

I urge people to read the applicants, and really read them.Look at how JREF bends over backwards to let the applicants show their abilities to something they agree with.They do work together, and all of the applicants make the same excuses we see here in the end.

Here, I made it easy, straight link to that part... http://forums.randi....isplay.php?f=43

What I find interesting is that people are cutting down this challenge, but yet, no one has ever proven any of these " abilities " to anyone.........IE :

Friends

Family

News Agencies

School Districts

Health Institutes

Skeptics

The Public

Universities

Paranormal TV Shows ( that's a biggie for me considering if anyone wanted to show proof it would be them )

Oprah

Dateline

60 Minutes

Larry King

CNN

Governments

I am sure if it was about not getting the " Million " dollars, there would be more than millions for a person with said abilities.

If the excuse of " I do not want the money " were there, surely just the nature of using said abilities to help hurting people, and to help the World in general would be a big enough cause.

The only place we hear about these claims is on the internet, or on off-beat TV shows, and in the movies.

Truth is, these abilities never come out in reality, and the excuses make no sense at all to why they do not.....

You don't give up, even when it's obvious this magician you love so much is just in it for the fame and glory.

[Sakari]

You don't give up, even when it's obvious this magician you love so much is just in it for the fame and glory.

You quote my reply and can not even debate or answer any of it....Maybe because it makes sense, and is true.

For someone who said " we don't care if anyone believes us or not ", you sure seem mighty upset.

[SolarPlexus]

If anyone is upset here, it can only be you Sakari. Like Carrie said, it makes no difference to her whether you believe or not. On the other hand, it is very important to you if others claim to have abilities! It's because most people are more comfortable with a consensus than possibilities

This is not directed at you Sakari, but i must say pathological skepticism is just a refuge for conformist minds.

[aquatus1]

You don't give up, even when it's obvious this magician you love so much is just in it for the fame and glory.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...so what?

Of course Randi is just in it for the fame and glory (although, I personally feel that he derives a more sadistic pleasure from outing the wannabe charlatans). Randi isn't really a significant part of the challenge. He's just the posterboy who put up some starting cash. If the scientists who do the actual testing do actually come up with a positive result, Randi is not going to have any choice but to accept their decision. If he does anything else, he is going to lose that fame and glory he has worked so hard to achieve.

Frankly, I can see him spinning it into even more fame and glory by promoting the winner (after he ensures the guy is really legit). If anyone can figure out how to make a fortune from an honest-to-goodness paranormal power, it is Randi.

[eight bits]

If the scientists who do the actual testing do actually come up with a positive result, Randi is not going to have any choice but to accept their decision.

That is chiefly what distinguishes a genuine challenge prize from a publicity stunt, and what the Randi-JREF not-quite-challenge lacks.

There is no body independent of JREF whose verdict JREF must accept. There is no independent body which administers the prize, deides on eligibility, and makes awards as it deems justified under its charter.

And, of course, the reason why there is no such body is that JREF has made no offer of reward for establishing the existence of "something paranormal" as such. JREF offers to talk to people about what they think they can do, and what JREF thinks they cannot do honestly.

Nobody who is serious about their rights and obligations under a million dollar contract, the other party to which thinks they are a liar aspiring to be a thief, serious enough to hire a lawyer, has ever made it into the second and final round of tests. That, and only that, is what can be inferred from the nearly half-century of the Randi-JREF publicity stunt.

[SolarPlexus]

There is no body independent of JREF whose verdict JREF must accept.

Absolutely. They are making the offer, they drafted the conditions, they are the adjucator, they are the judge and jury - about an outcome they have a huge personal interest in. It's more of a business than objective science, by far

One of the vital principles of the Western world, is that no-one should be a judge in their own cause (Nemo iudex in causa sua). If we are ignoring this principle the objectivity is questionable

Edited June 19, 2011 by SolarPlexus

[Sakari]

If anyone is upset here, it can only be you Sakari. Like Carrie said, it makes no difference to her whether you believe or not. On the other hand, it is very important to you if others claim to have abilities! It's because most people are more comfortable with a consensus than possibilities

This is not directed at you Sakari, but i must say pathological skepticism is just a refuge for conformist minds.

I am not upset at all.

It is not important to me at all when others claim abilities.A little part of me can not wait until someone proves me wrong.

I enjoy debating these topics, if I did not, I would not.

What a lot of people fail to realise, people like me would love to see any of the claims we see here be true, maybe even more so than the people who claim them and believe them.

[crystal sage]

Randi was once accused of actually using "psychic powers" to perform acts such as spoon bending. James Alcock relates this incident, which occurred at a meeting where Randi was duplicating the performances of Uri Geller: A professor from the University at Buffalo shouted out that Randi was a fraud. Randi said, "Yes, indeed, I'm a trickster, I'm a cheat, I'm a charlatan, that's what I do for a living. Everything I've done here was by trickery." The professor shouted back: "That's not what I mean. You're a fraud because you're pretending to do these things through trickery, but you're actually using psychic powers and misleading us by not admitting it."[29] The famous author and believer in spiritualism Arthur Conan Doyle had years earlier made a similar accusation against the magician Harry Houdini.[30] A similar event involved Senator Claiborne Pell. Pell believed in psychic phenomena. When Randi demonstrated viewing a hidden drawing by using trickery, Pell refused to believe that it was a trick, saying, "I think Randi may be a psychic and doesn't realize it."[31]

I agree here.... I honestly think that paranormal events...voodoo... ghosts.. psychic.. telepathic... kenetic powers exist... I think that Randi is a very powerful psychic... has knowledge of metaphysics...so that he can (locking into and using the anticipatory...energetic.. power of the audience to ) mess up the psychic's demonstration... He insists on setting the scene for every public demonstration..insists on knowing what their demonstration involves.. so there foreknowledge of how to manipulate the environment... maybe use his life long experience of magician's trickery to dampen any possible effect of the psychic's demonstration... Note even sound waves.. levels only audible to animals.. but enough to affect register in the unconscious... affect one's conscentration... We know how electromagnetic waves can affect conscentration.. affect the mind.. nerves... therefore the success of the individuals demonstration... Think of a gifted mentalist.. telepathy.. if he had that.. which I am sure he may... he would be able to distract ..antagonize.. He may also have great hypnotic powers .. so therefore quench a performance..

Remember James Randi is a gifted magician.. he can create magic.. or take it away... his conjuring skills can disguise real psi abilities... Remember James controls the scenario... If he is half the magician he is reported to be.. he can spoil the psi demonstration... would have studied all areas of shamanism.. metaphysics.. psi.. how to mess up concentration.. even smells.. lighting..energetic incantations.. intent can mess up psychic vibrations... I read that Some contestants said that they had months of grief.. had to sign lengthy documents.. and pay their own way only to be messed around over and over again... taunted.. treated disrespectfully to the extent that they were really riled up at the point of their performance.. hence spoiling their concentration...

Randi denounced by Sheldrake

[crystal sage]

http://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/randis-million-dollar-challenge/

He has a point actually. The Daily Grail points out that Rules #4 (allowing Randi to use the data from the experiment in any way he chooses and #8 (denying the applicant legal recourse), when combined allow Randi the option to lie about the results and get away with it.

John Benneth went back and forth in 70 e-mails with Randi. The Vithoulkas experiment process dragged on for two two years, the Zibarov process dragged on for two years, Carina Landin, went through a 3 year process. Only one of these actually came to down to an actual test and that one was botched.

For that matter, how many people have actually gone down to Florida to take the challenge? Randis website is decidedly vague on this point. Why is this information missing?

After doing a bit of research on the JREF site, I found out some interesting things. First, many applicants have no clue how to put their abilities up to a scientific test. Once they start in on the process, many drop out. The fact is, performing a psychic ability for a scientific test is much harder than it first appears. They also find out an extra requirement not stated up front: There is a time limit for the preliminary challenge: eight hours.

Why does he leave out this crucial bit of information? Because it allows Randi to work behind the scenes to make the challenge as difficult as possible. It is well known within scientific circles that the odds against chance that James Randi will accept are 1,000 to 1 for the preliminary challenge and 1,000,000 to 1 for the main challenge. The odds for the main challenge are the equivalent of asking a person to stand under a 20′ high wall and jump over it. And if their foot brushes the top? Thats a failure; too bad, so sad, get lost.

You cant find this out of course until after youve applied. While psychics can, conceivably overcome odds of a thousand to one, its extremely doubtful that they can do this under both the pressure of performing, in the presence of extreme skeptics, within eight hours and having their number of trials arbitrarily limited. It is a worse case scenario for demonstrating psychic ability. Beating 1,000,000 to one odds is completely out of the question. Bear in mind that should a psychic show a sudden flash of great ability, they may be asked to repeat it, further worsening the odds. Randi makes no attempt to explain these details, he only paints the applicants in the worst possible light.

Until as recently as the end of 2007, applicants were required to give up all publicity and media rights as a requirement for applying. So not only were they screwed, they were not allowed to talk about it. This is kind of like the sideshow at the carnival where people are promised that they will see something wonderful, but when shown the empty box are advised not to tell anyone else lest they be the only fool. Until very recently, he did not even show the list of applicants. At every step of the way he appears to be seeking to withhold information about the difficulty of the challenge.

This is one more way in which the scientific validity of the challenge is nil. Proving that people cannot jump over a 20ft wall does not prove anything about jumping except that people cannot jump that high. It makes no statement about any ability under that threshold. If a person can only jump six inches, that is still jumping. The same applies to psychic ability

But the expense and obstacles of the challenge do not make it an attractive proposition. A scientist would have to front all of the money for the challenge and stands a chance of running out before they get to their goal. They would likely have to do this in the face of Mr. Randi doing everything in his power to prevent their success, since that would mean the end of whatever fame he possesses from the challenge and his skepticism. This would undoubtedly add to their expense. Of course it’s all moot since he ignores them anyway.

In conclusion, there is no reason to take this challenge seriously. It’s not science. The illusion of the Great Test is only maintained through selectively culling applicants, making the process opaque and rigging the odds. Its only possible purpose can be to harass and humiliate people who do not share Mr. Randi’s beliefs.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=119896&page=6

Edited September 25, 2011 by crystal sage

[Rlyeh]

I think that Randi is a very powerful psychic... has knowledge of metaphysics...so that he can (locking into and using the anticipatory...energetic.. power of the audience to ) mess up the psychic's demonstration...

Thats like me blaming you for blocking my cancer healing ability. Nothing more than a sad excuse.

Remember James Randi is a gifted magician.. he can create magic.. or take it away... his conjuring skills can disguise real psi abilities... Remember James controls the scenario... If he is half the magician he is reported to be.. he can spoil the psi demonstration... would have studied all areas of shamanism.. metaphysics.. psi.. how to mess up concentration.. even smells.. lighting..energetic incantations.. intent can mess up psychic vibrations... I read that Some contestants said that they had months of grief.. had to sign lengthy documents.. and pay their own way only to be messed around over and over again... taunted.. treated disrespectfully to the extent that they were really riled up at the point of their performance.. hence spoiling their concentration...

Please do yourself a favor and find out what an illusionist is.

You're making baseless and ridiculous accusations while ignoring the real facts.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Rlyeh