Great Pyramid air shafts inquiry

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Oh I simply asked those questions in hope of any answer at all. Not THE answers of course just some kind of answer.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

I would like to hear why he nay says and on what basis he does so. If he has different opinion, then that's awesome. And I would like to hear the why.

[Oniomancer]

Vyse referred to it as "optical precision". Of course in those days lenses were

just of the general shape necessary for telescopes, spectrometers, or microscopes

rather than what we call precise.

Yeah, here's a quote referencing what Vyse actually said in context:

Howard-Vyse also cleared away the ruble from the middle of the north side and discovered the first two intact casing stones on the Pyramid. They were each about twelve feet long, by five feet high, by eight feet deep. The angle of the face could finally be accurately measured and was found to be 51* 51'. Howard-Vyse described the blocks as being, "in a sloping plane as correct and true almost as modern work by optical instrument makers. The joints were scarcely perceptible, not wider than the thickness of silver paper."

Cite

A loose generalization about one specific aspect of one specific part of the GP, qualified no less.

(His only use of the word optical in commenting on the GP I could find at any rate.)

[cladking]

Yeah, here's a quote referencing what Vyse actually said in context:

Cite

A loose generalization about one specific aspect of one specific part of the GP, qualified no less.

(His only use of the word optical in commenting on the GP I could find at any rate.)

Let me put it this way then.

It's quite remarkable they even got all the sides to meet at a point no

matter how they built it. They probably had no high technology tools and

they not only got the structure shaped almost perfectly and nearly perfect-

ly aligned but even managed to engineer a 6" dip in each side making it an

eight sided ediface. If this weren't enough the seams in the interior are

so tight that they are probably all air and water tight. The exterior

seams which is the only thing that most people were intended to see most

of the time were so fine that more than 2000 years after it was built Hero-

dotus couldn't even see most of the joints and believed the stones were as

much as 20' on a side.

People today for some reason just have a habit of diminishing the nature and

scope of this work as well as the builders themselves. No, every single

stone and joint in the structure is not perfect. People weren't expected

to see the core stones so putting them all in intimate contact wasn't nec-

essary. Of course if they were in intimate contact the pyramid might have

collapsed in the first earthquake. So who's to say the small insignificant

gaps don't constitute part of the perfection of the pyramid.

This thing is in an advanced state of ruin today. The cladding may have been

pulled off intentionally exposing the softer stone beneath. Who even knows

what has been ripped out of the interior. We don't even really know what

purpose it served so how can we even rate its perfection. People have a habit

of minimizing this work and its builders but this would be unfair even if we

really understood the people and knew how they accomplished this massive feat.

To peer inside of a blck box and pronounce it all magic is not fair. It is

almost certainly not accurate. The lower technology that is used to do a

task the grosser are the means. Why would something as gross as ramps leave

no evidence.

No, the pyramid isn't as homogenous as a solid piece of iron with bore holes

for passages but this thing was built more than 4500 years ago. How would you

define "perfection" for a 6 1/2 million ton pile of stone. I'd have to say

just about anything still standing after countless earthquakes and two attempts

to rip it down to be perfect enough for "government work".

[lilthor]

^^^Well said. Water tight seams and flush surfaces all produced with diorite pounders and soft copper chisels...the word "precise" hardly begins to describe it.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Ck said "Why would something as gross as ramps leave no evidence."

We have gone over this and over this and over this and over this and over this and over this and over this and over this and over this.

There are remnants of ramps which would equate as evidence.

Hurray for the poster child of ramp remnant theory... Uggh ::shakes head::

Edited May 28, 2011 by Aus Der Box Skeptisch

[SHaYap]

A loose generalization about one specific aspect of one specific part of the GP, qualified no less.

(His only use of the word optical in commenting on the GP I could find at any rate.)

But it is known that that specific part mentioned here goes all the way to the top right?

A collection of documented images of the pyramids as "seen" through the ages :

Http://egypt.musicfilmbroth.com/minishowcase/index.php

These pyramids in its original state was in every aspect just a severe "geometrical" form and by the strictest definition of "shape" in the modern sense.

In a famous movie they used a towering rectangular block but from the perspective of "building" something up with separate bits would not the pyramidion shape be more challenging and requires a huge leap in conceptual capacity to grasp this the very foundation of basic modern sophisticated building theories.

A favor O~ni~on~cer ?

Do you have recent updated links and sources on the abydos site and temple? Thanks

[questionmark]

I've been tweeking my theory quite a bit recently to fit in with some new facts

and observations.

I find this a little disingenious coming from a person that does not leave any occasion out to smear the pyramid texts under our noses.

If you would have read beyond the utterances that confirm your prejudices you would know that after dead a person's soul would go into the afterlife and split into three parts, one of which returned to aid the living.

But to live eternally the body of the deceased had to be preserved and his name mentioned. If any of the above would not happen the eternal life ended right there. And that is the reason why gigantic monuments were built, one to preserve the body and second so the deceased's name would be remembered.

And both are the reasons why they went through great pains to kill out the names of those they thought not worthy from monuments and documents. That was an afterlife death sentence.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Not that it really matters what I think third_eye but I really like your last post. Just figure I would say it on the thread.

[SHaYap]

Not that it really matters what I think third_eye but I really like your last post. Just figure I would say it on the thread.

Oh get a beer and lighten up ol'chap

I am getting ready for the big Barca ManU cup final so I have had more than couple and more to to come I don't go much for smilies so don't expect me to keep up this trend

like Mr Harte once mentioned "don't take all my posts all that too seriously"

monthy pythonesque humor is part of my repertoire

now ... glory glorieeeee Man U nien turds !!!! !!!!

since Liverpool sank lower than even by previous standards of lows I thought I'd support Fergie's Favourite Sons this year, maybe that will break any curse if any, not that I believe in curses mind you

now where's my aluminum garnet lined and amethyst crystal tipped pyramid hat

[cladking]

gone over this and over this and over this and over this and over this and over this and over this and over this and over this.

There are remnants of ramps which would equate as evidence.

I very nearly wrote out a very long proof again going over the extensive evidence

that ramps were not and could not have been used to build the great pyramids but

there's really just the common sense, logic, and facts and these haven't changed

one iota since the last time you proposed a remnant of a ramp far from the pyramid

proves they mustta used ramps to lift stones up the pyramid.

But, rather than do all that typing that will again be ignored I'll just point out

one new little fact that not only serves to bolster my argument but undermine the

nonsensical notion that ramps are the only possible means these primitive bumpkins

might have used. It undermines it by incorporating even the highly irrelevent "frag-

ment" into an overall theory which is evidenced rather than being an assumption.

I've had to come to grips with the fact that the mastabas east of G1 were completed

within seven years of the onset of the Great Pyramid construction. These mastabas

are simply in the way of the ropes. For a long time I just figured that the ropes

passed over them and the stones were pulled over the top but it just leaves too much

work for the northern counterweight to have so little being done by the western. It

might be a little sacriligious to be pulling stones over the heads of the recently

departed as well.

I now believe they probably just "threaded the needle". Rather than pull stone straight

from the Sphinx quarry to the eastern ascender they pulled them up the "avenues" be-

tween the mastabas and the satellite pyramids and between them and the pyramid. They

simply left a runway next to the pyramid along which to drag the stones along the east

face.

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=29.9775576&lon=31.1353183&z=16&l=0&m=s

You can see in this photo the yellow colred fill they had to put into the cliff face

to make the counterweight run. A canal leads straight to this filled area.

Just to the east was a second counterweight run which pulled stones from the quarry.

This one too is evidenced by a canal exhibiting water erosion leading to it.

In the early stages the western cliff face counterweight pulled stones straight onto

the pyramid. These two (probably three as there'd be a backup for the eastern) cliff

face counterweights did all the work of getting stones to the pyramid and lifted near-

ly half the stones up. All these stones were near the bottom so they did relatively

little of the total work of lifting all the weight. Most of the work of lifting the

weight was done by the western and northern main counterweights and a significant frac-

tion of that work was done by men relifting water.

Men did less than 15% of the work of lifting of stone for the pyramid and all of that

was in lifting water.

If you'll look at the picture again you'll note that the western cliff face counter-

weight lines up with several important features such as the whidden hole in the mid-

dle of the east side, Khentkawes Pyramid, and your so-called ramp fragment.

Edited May 29, 2011 by cladking

[cladking]

I find this a little disingenious coming from a person that does not leave any occasion out to smear the pyramid texts under our noses.

If you would have read beyond the utterances that confirm your prejudices you would know that after dead a person's soul would go into the afterlife and split into three parts, one of which returned to aid the living.

There is nothing beyond the utterances.

Virtually nothing survives from the time of great pyramid building. The

Pyramid Texts are dismissed as mere incantation and magic but if you do

this there is almost nothing left. Not one single book survives and most

of the writing is just the titles of the people buried in tombs. Nothing

corroborates the view that these people were religious except a metaphor-

ical interpretation of the PT. Everything is built on assumption.

If you believe the literal meaning of the PT then there are important clues

about the air shafts and what they were for. It appears these are the dor-

sal air siphon of Serket who was the Goddess of Respiration.

I think people need to consider the fact that it's possible the PT "confirms

my prejudices" because this is exactly what the writers intended. Perhaps

they said what they said because it's exactly what they meant.

Is it really that far fetched that the ancients might have meant exactly what

they said when they said things like "Osiris tows the earth by means of Ba--

lance."? I don't think we should automatically dismiss such statements as

some religious mumbo jumbo just because the intended meaning isn't readily

apparent. It's not fair to the authors and it's not fair to us.

[cladking]

^^^Well said. Water tight seams and flush surfaces all produced with diorite pounders and soft copper chisels...the word "precise" hardly begins to describe it.

As remarkable as the precision is and as incredible as it seems they

could accomplish this with primitive technology and primitive tools

it always comes down to the most incredible, impossible, feat of all;

lifting 6 1/2 million tons as high as 480'.

Once we know how this was done I intend to start working more on how

they accomplished their other "impossible" feats.

[+DieChecker]

All these stones were near the bottom so they did relatively little of the total work of lifting all the weight. Most of the work of lifting the weight was done by the western and northern main counterweights and a significant fraction of that work was done by men relifting water.

I don't think your theory/idea ever did give a good situation description on how the last souple layers were put on top.

Are you proposing now that the counterweights were not On the pyramid, but had rope running over the pyramid? That is a lot more ropes then I had thought you were talking about before. Or are you talking about the counterweights yanking stones to and up the pyramid from the actual quarry?

And how to explain Khafre's Pyramid nearby that is almost as tall? There is no canals running even close to that pyramid. Longer Ropes?

Men did less than 15% of the work of lifting of stone for the pyramid and all of that was in lifting water.

The water used would have to be greater then the weight of the stones moved. That is simple logic and simple physics. You need to break the inertia of the stone to sit still, plus counter friction on the load going up and on the counterweight going down.

Plus, if you used a 100 foot long rope on your counterweight you would then need to move it again and fill it again to get stones up to successive heights. At 480 feet tall, you'd have to fill up a 100 foot length counterweight 5 times. So the counterweights either moved a vertical distance equal to a significant percentage of the pyramid height, or they were filled not just once per lift, but several times. Meaning the amount of water used might have been two or three times the mass of the total stones moved.

So then how was the water moved? If by hand, basket and pot, then those poor humans were working two or three times harder (calorie wise) then if they had simply dragged those blocks up a ramp. True, the water would be more flexable in how it can be moved, but the total work, with the same amount of peeple, and same amount of time, would have been a lot more.

IF:

Time = Constant

People = Constant

THEN:

Counterweights = More Work

Ramps = Less Work

[cladking]

I don't think your theory/idea ever did give a good situation description on how the last souple layers were put on top.

Are you proposing now that the counterweights were not On the pyramid, but had rope running over the pyramid?

There is evidence for both cliff face and pyramid counterweights. The vertical

drop on the cliff face is nearly three times the vertical drop of the water which

was collected at 80' which means the water did three times as much work after it

was used to lift stones up the pyramid than it did lifting stones up the pyramid.

In order to maximize efficiency and water usage they had to use some energy from

the cliff face counterweights to lift stone up the pyramid. There simply was much

less work to get the stones to the pyramid than to get them up. They accomplished

this by filling at the NW corner and used this counterweight in the early stages to

pull stones straight from the quarry and up onto the pyramid. They built the east

side somewhat prefentially to the west initially to use this energy. By the time

they got up to about 80' this was getting cumbersome but by this time much of the

weight of the pyramid was already lifted into place. Concurrently with this they

were also using both main pyramid counterweights to lift stone as well as the two

northern auxiallaries when they were available.

You're right that I've not talked much about installing the top but this is largely

because I have to mention things not yet in evidence because The powers that be won't

do the simple testing that would prove this theory. The top really isn't especially

harder than any other part. There is a very small landing platform for the ascender

to "light upon" but there are simple and practical ways to overcome this problem.

Near the top they'd simply use much lighter loads with a single stone in each load.

Most of these stones up here are only a couple tons so hitting the mark wouldn't be

so difficult. The simplest means really is to just underload the counterweight and

augment its force with a small team of men pulling. They could gain very tight con-

trol that should even suffice with placing the capstone by this method.

That is a lot more ropes then I had thought you were talking about before. Or are you talking about the counterweights yanking stones to and up the pyramid from the actual quarry?

The longest ropes would have been about 92'. These were actually slings which are

ropes with a large loop on each end. These would be hooked together to make up much

longer lenghts. The longest lenght was on the eastern cliff face counterweight and

would have been about 550 meters or about 20 lenghts of rope. This pulled about four

"trains" of three stones lashed together with the so called protopulleys 300' (bowshot)

at a time.

And how to explain Khafre's Pyramid nearby that is almost as tall? There is no canals running even close to that pyramid. Longer Ropes?

I've only recently begun looking at this pyramid. I believe much less of the infra-

structure for its construction survives. I suspect it had less infrastructure and the

mehet weret cow for G1 was also used on G2.

con't...

[cladking]

...con't

Plus, if you used a 100 foot long rope on your counterweight you would then need to move it again and fill it again to get stones up to successive heights.

Yes, exactly. It was a five step pyramid and stones had to be lifted

80' at a time to get all the way up. The ascender on G1 apparently had

a small water bladder on it which was filled at the top so it would pull

the counterweight back to the top. This is not extremely well evidenced

but there are hints of it. If it did it was probably the first time it

was used. Otherwise they simply had to have a team of about six men re-

set the counterweight after each lift. This would have been tweeked not

to save the work but to save time.

At 480 feet tall, you'd have to fill up a 100 foot length counterweight 5 times.

These were 80' steps because that was the height of the water pressure. It

would have required six lifts to put the uppermost stones on except for the

air siphon of Serket. Other pyramids used men on the exterior of the pyra-

mid passing up water in a sort of bucket brigade. They did this because each

time you lifted a stone you had to disconnect it, store it temporarily, then

reconnect it. This was labor intensive and there was limited storage room

on the lower steps of the pyramid. As soon as an area was full of stones you

had to reposition the counterweight and ascender; take it to another "battle-

ment" as Herodotus described it. This was highly labor intensive and passing

water up almost cured the problem. Stones could "naturally" be lifted to 80'

and then with water lifted internally could be lifted another 160' meaning al-

most the entire weight of the pyramid only had to be lifted twice. Even high-

er stones could just be lifted 160' twice. Only the last stones near the top

needed to be lifted three or more times.

They used a simple system in the grand gallery composed of 13 shadufs which

required 28 supports as well as a walkway along the top for reliefmen. Air

was drawn in through the air shafts. This allowed the men to work out of the

sun in airconditioned comfort and provided an extra 5.5 Horse Power for lift-

ing stone. It saved tens of thousands of lifts and dozens if not hundreds

of repositionings of the counterweight/ ascenders.

All the great pyramids utilized the relifting of water but only G1 did it inter-

nally. Apparently it wasn't as effective as they had hoped as it probably re-

quired to much effort to build so they didn't use it again. Serket was not

only the Goddess of Respiration but she was also the Goddess of the main Counter-

weight. Who counterpart was Neith whose operator is buried in the workmen's

cemetery.

Meaning the amount of water used might have been two or three times the mass of the total stones moved.

If they could achieve 100% efficiency then they'd only need about three quarters of

the weight of the pyramid as water at 80' since they also had the 225' vertical drop

of the cliff face. Of course they could not approach 100% but this is a very highly

efficient means to lift stones. All the traveling surfaces can be made very low fric-

tion. Water could be stored in ample quantities at night during the peak part of the

project and in small quantities even in the last stages. (this is why the air shafts

in the queens chamber were left sealed; these shafts aren't water tight).

IF:

Time = Constant

People = Constant

THEN:

Counterweights = More Work

Ramps = Less Work

They either had to build huge ramps by dragging material up them and then drag 6 1/2

million tons of stone up to 480' or sit back sipping water like perrier and watching

the Gods build the pyramid.

I know which I'd choose.

[cladking]

I know which I'd choose.

...And I'd wager there were at least 100,000 ancient Egyptians who'd be pretty quick to agree with me.

[Oniomancer]

Let me put it this way then.

It's quite remarkable they even got all the sides to meet at a point no

matter how they built it. They probably had no high technology tools and

they not only got the structure shaped almost perfectly and nearly perfect-

ly aligned but even managed to engineer a 6" dip in each side making it an

eight sided ediface.

Quite remarkable if one truly believes they were all backwards stone-age yokels who didn't know how to measure.

If this weren't enough the seams in the interior are

so tight that they are probably all air and water tight.

An interior equal to not much more than a couple large single-family homes with attached garages area-wise.

The exterior

seams which is the only thing that most people were intended to see most

of the time were so fine that more than 2000 years after it was built Hero-

dotus couldn't even see most of the joints and believed the stones were as

much as 20' on a side.

Perhaps there were no seams to be seen. No doubt you've heard the painted pyramid theory. In examining G2, Caviglia supposedly found traces of red stucco to a height of 43 feet from the base, a pattern Djedefre duplicated in granite for his pyramid.

It seems unwise though to speculate either way on what Herodotus claims and why, given his track record on other points.

People today for some reason just have a habit of diminishing the nature and

scope of this work as well as the builders themselves.

And an equal number have developed a talent for inflating it.

No, every single

stone and joint in the structure is not perfect. People weren't expected

to see the core stones so putting them all in intimate contact wasn't nec-

essary. Of course if they were in intimate contact the pyramid might have

collapsed in the first earthquake. So who's to say the small insignificant

gaps don't constitute part of the perfection of the pyramid.

This has to be the single most amazing example of position reversal I've ever seen, moreso than the usual flip flopping you've pulled again a few posts after this.

If it's not so all-over perfect, we can stop making an issue of how perfect it is then, can't we?

This thing is in an advanced state of ruin today. The cladding may have been

pulled off intentionally exposing the softer stone beneath. Who even knows

what has been ripped out of the interior. We don't even really know what

purpose it served so how can we even rate its perfection. People have a habit

of minimizing this work and its builders but this would be unfair even if we

really understood the people and knew how they accomplished this massive feat.

To peer inside of a blck box and pronounce it all magic is not fair.

Which side of the argument is generally invoking outside forces?

It is

almost certainly not accurate. The lower technology that is used to do a

task the grosser are the means. Why would something as gross as ramps leave

no evidence.

Ramps may be gross but your geyser has cooties.

I think you'll find they needed a lot less ramp than you think they did. Less ramp = easier removal.

Aaaand, back again for a limited engagement, it's everybody's favorite reply, There's no real reason they'd have left evidence.

No, the pyramid isn't as homogenous as a solid piece of iron with bore holes

for passages but this thing was built more than 4500 years ago. How would you

define "perfection" for a 6 1/2 million ton pile of stone. I'd have to say

just about anything still standing after countless earthquakes and two attempts

to rip it down to be perfect enough for "government work".

Or it just goes to show that some things are harder to screw up than others.

Why, even a caveman could do it.

[Oniomancer]

But it is known that that specific part mentioned here goes all the way to the top right?

Went. By the time vyse got to them there was only a single course left.

A collection of documented images of the pyramids as "seen" through the ages :

Http://egypt.musicfilmbroth.com/minishowcase/index.php

These pyramids in its original state was in every aspect just a severe "geometrical" form and by the strictest definition of "shape" in the modern sense.

In a famous movie they used a towering rectangular block but from the perspective of "building" something up with separate bits would not the pyramidion shape be more challenging and requires a huge leap in conceptual capacity to grasp this the very foundation of basic modern sophisticated building theories.

That depends on how sophisticated you think squares and triangles are, and combining of the two. Like I said, they already had plenty of experience building mastabas, and those were already sloped rectangles made of much smaller but similar stacked blocks. It's not that huge of a mental leap from one to the other. You're doing the same thing clad is. You're treating the AE like they were morons.

A favor O~ni~on~cer ?

Do you have recent updated links and sources on the abydos site and temple? Thanks

Not offhand, beyond what you can find on google. I assume this is in reference to the whirlybird?

[Oniomancer]

Why, even a caveman could do it.

I've think I've used that one already, haven't I?

[Oniomancer]

^^^Well said. Water tight seams and flush surfaces all produced with diorite pounders and soft copper chisels...the word "precise" hardly begins to describe it.

And saws. Don't forget saws. Two pre-matched surfaces with every cut.

[SHaYap]

Went. By the time vyse got to them there was only a single course left.

Point being? The higher courses might not have existed ?

That depends on how sophisticated you think squares and triangles are, and combining of the two. Like I said, they already had plenty of experience building mastabas, and those were already sloped rectangles made of much smaller but similar stacked blocks. It's not that huge of a mental leap from one to the other.

Definitive geometric shapes are abstract concepts and is the base foundation of "modern architectural" building technology.

Its a very big leap from combining a basic square and triangle in 2D and a complex shape like a pyramidion. We are not comparing a pointy tip cone with a square based shape with a pointy tip here i hope.

You're doing the same thing clad is. You're treating the AE like they were morons.

now you are just being down right insulting unless you are attempting at some form of archaic humor

Not offhand, beyond what you can find on google. I assume this is in reference to the whirlybird?

Nope, i don't think even clad king, our resident great conjurer of seth's lost testicles and keeper of horus's lost eye would give that a twirl.

I was more interested in the groove, ridge, tongue "precision" involved in the stacking of the granite lintel.

And the thickness of that "island" platform

Thanks anyway

[zoser]

So how far have all you guys got with unlocking the secrets of the KC and QC shafts?

How were they constructed and what were they used for? Where's Sesh? I'm sure he has all the answers - he looks it all up in his high school text book:rofl:

Edited May 30, 2011 by zoser

[Abramelin]

So how far have all you guys got with unlocking the secrets of the KC and QC shafts?

How were they constructed and what were they used for? Where's Sesh? I'm sure he has all the answers - he looks it all up in his high school text book:rofl:

Yeah, contrary to some others who depend on the books written by Cayce, Blavatsky, Sitchin, Von Däniken, and all those other great sources of (dis)information.

[questionmark]

Yeah, contrary to some others who depend on the books written by Cayce, Blavatsky, Sitchin, Von Däniken, and all those other great sources of (dis)information.

Who, if capable of reading, keep on quoting the same three passages of the ancient texts claiming that they contain all the knowledge of the universe.