Inca civilisation owes success to llama dung

[Still Waters]

One of the world's greatest ancient civilisations may have been built on llama droppings, a new study has found.

Machu Picchu, the famous Inca city set in the Peruvian Andes, celebrates the centenary of its "'discovery" by the outside world this July.

Dignitaries will descend on site for a glitzy event in July marking 100 years since US explorer Hiram Bingham came upon the site, but the origins of Machu Picchu were far less glamorous.

According to a study published in archeological review Antiquity, llama droppings provided the basis for the growth of Inca society.

Read more...

[The_Spartan]

**** Happened!! in Machu Pichu!!

[Abramelin]

They didn't have cows, sheep, goats, horses, but they did have llamas.

And to fertilize poor mountain soil they used llama droppings.

They used llamas for just about everything: meat, wool, as carriers of burden, and as sacrifices to their gods (the embryos).

It's like saying the USA would have been nothing without artificial fertilizer.

Jeesh, people have to eat, right?

[Abramelin]

A quote from the article:

""The valley is full of indigenous people who follow that way of life from 2,000 years ago," said Mr Chepstow-Lusty."

I have lived there for half a year, and I can tell you that many of these 'indigenous people' follow that ancient way of life... because modern scientists advised them to do so, based on their archeological findings.

I mean the way to cultivate their land, terrases, and much more.

+++++

EDIT:

Their crops were failing, and the people lived like rats, grasping at straws, being hungry most of the time.

Then these archeologists came along, found out how the ancient Incas managed to grow crops on poor soil, and they taught these modern descendents of the ancient Peruvians to follow the ways of their ancestors.

Personally, I think it is one of the great achievements of archeology.

Not just coming up with a nice story about the past, but actually helping people to cope by teaching them the ways of their ancestors.

.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Abramelin

[questionmark]

Owe to Llama dung is probably slightly exaggerated. But it sure had a factor in the equation.

[The_Spartan]

Abe...what were you doing over there for 1/2 a year??

[Abramelin]

Owe to Llama dung is probably slightly exaggerated. But it sure had a factor in the equation.

Without enough food you will not be able to build much of a civilization.

And if llama dung helped these people to cultivate crops, then so be it.

I don't think it is exaggerated at all, it is true for any civilization: be able to feed yourself and prosper.

[Abramelin]

Abe...what were you doing over there for 1/2 a year??

I will tell you:

I was interested in anything 'Inca' for a large part of my life.

And then I got a job that gave me the money to fulfill my life-long dream: to visit South America.

OK, so I went on a vacation to Peru/Bolivia for 5 weeks.

I visited all the famous places.

And... fell in love with a refugee from Chile (in Arequipa).

I came back soon after that holiday, and worked for her father as a translator (in Arequipa/ English/German).

Of course - being hooked on anything Inca - I again visited all the sites most people only dream of.

Then I went back to The Netherlands again to arrange my move to Peru, only to find out this b*** lied to me, and was in contact with her socalled EX (from France) again...

There.

[questionmark]

Without enough food you will not be able to build much of a civilization.

And if llama dung helped these people to cultivate crops, then so be it.

I don't think it is exaggerated at all, it is true for any civilization: be able to feed yourself and prosper.

Much more important than the dung was probably the Inca trade routes and the irrigation system:

An agriculture without additional fertilization is sustainable and possible (see three field plantation), without water not

[Abramelin]

Much more important than the dung was probably the Inca trade routes and the irrigation system:

An agriculture without additional fertilization is sustainable and possible (see three field plantation), without water not

Yeah, nice pic, but I was there, and heard a different story.

If you want to feed the people, you need to know how to cultivate the land.

These modern people tried, but failed.

I am talking about the present indiginous people.

Then these archeologists came along, found out how the ancients managed, and taught the present people.

++

EDIT:

I was responding to this:

"The valley is full of indigenous people who follow that way of life from 2,000 years ago," said Mr Chepstow-Lusty."

And they didn't. They forgot how long ago, and archeologists taught them how their ancestors did.

.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Abramelin

[questionmark]

Yeah, nice pic, but I was there, and heard a different story.

If you want to feed the people, you need to know how to cultivate the land.

These modern people tried, but failed.

I am talking about the present indiginous people.

Then these archeologists came along, found out how the ancients managed, and taught the present people.

The three field method is as old as it gets...like 6000 BC. In fact, it is the oldest cultivation scheme. And I would not be surprised if whoever came before the Incas did just that.

But I agree with you (and by extension with the archeologists), modern agriculture US style or European style would certainly not work in the Andes (in fact, it does not work sustainably in Europe or the US either). Just from there to claim that the Incan culture is due to Llama dung is quite a long way off.

[Abramelin]

The three field method is as old as it gets...like 6000 BC. In fact, it is the oldest cultivation scheme. And I would not be surprised if whoever came before the Incas did just that.

But I agree with you (and by extension with the archeologists), modern agriculture US style or European style would certainly not work in the Andes (in fact, it does not work sustainably in Europe or the US either). Just from there to claim that the Incan culture is due to Llama dung is quite a long way off.

If you know how to fertilize your fields, then you know how to feed people.

They did it with llama dung, we do it in other ways.

If you are hungry because your crops fail for several years, you are not that much interested in civilization/culture.

Food is a basic thing: if you don't have it or not enough of it, you and your family and your whole nation will go down the drain.

[Druidus-Logos]

I've gotta agree with Abe. There are no suitable alternatives to Llama/Alpaca in South America for farm animals, a source of food, milk, fertilizer, fur, leather, etc. So the llama, and hence llama dung, was essential for the development of the Inca as a people.

Without it, I can't see a complex civilization developing. You need something to fill the void.

[lightly]

At Machu Pichu , i believe, the lamas not only provided dung for the soil... but, much of the soil itself? Most of it was brought up to the rocky terraces from farther down... in baskets? and on lamas?

Superior agricultural knowledge and skills seems to be a shared trait of highly successful cultures?

.... like the people in the amazon basin that invented the terra preta , charcoal enriched super soil capable of huge yields sustaining large populations in connected villages.

[questionmark]

At Machu Pichu , i believe, the lamas not only provided dung for the soil... but, much of the soil itself? Most of it was brought up to the rocky terraces from farther down... in baskets? and on lamas?

Superior agricultural knowledge and skills seems to be a shared trait of highly successful cultures?

.... like the people in the amazon basin that invented the terra preta , charcoal enriched super soil capable of huge yields sustaining large populations in connected villages.

A successful agriculture is required for a successful civilization. People who spend most of their time gathering food don't have time for civic advances. But that is a small part of it.Not all who were successful planting food are/were also successful in creating a civilization.

[lightly]

A successful agriculture is required for a successful civilization. People who spend most of their time gathering food don't have time for civic advances. But that is a small part of it. Not all who were successful planting food are/were also successful in creating a civilization.

yup, ... i know that point was more than obvious... but true... ( i said culture not civilization ) , but your absolutely right.

[lightly]

... Now i supposes someone will have to say ... you can have a successful culture without utilizing agriculture... and ... You'd be right too !

[Abramelin]

... Now i supposes someone will have to say ... you can have a successful culture without utilizing agriculture... and ... You'd be right too !

But then you will have to give an example.

[Pax Unum]

Really interesting...

[lightly]

lightly, on 22 May 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

... Now i suppose someone will have to say ... you can have a successful culture without utilizing agriculture... and ... You'd be right too !

But then you will have to give an example.

Hunter gatherer CULTURES.. without who's success early agricultural CULTURES ... and later civilizations, would have never been possible? Weren't Neanderthal (in theory) strict hunter gatherers?

Modern civilizations haven't yet completely abandoned hunting and gathering.

... examples? ... fishing... and bird's nest soup.

* My original point was on behalf of the usefulness of the lamas themselves .. without whom the afore mentioned precious dung would not have been possible.

(as well as for transport and food and clothing).

Edited May 23, 2011 by lightly

[Druidus-Logos]

lightly, on 22 May 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

... Now i suppose someone will have to say ... you can have a successful culture without utilizing agriculture... and ... You'd be right too !

Hunter gatherer CULTURES.. without who's success early agricultural CULTURES ... and later civilizations, would have never been possible? Weren't Neanderthal (in theory) strict hunter gatherers?

Modern civilizations haven't yet completely abandoned hunting and gathering.

... examples? ... fishing... and bird's nest soup.

* My original point was on behalf of the usefulness of the lamas themselves .. without whom the afore mentioned precious dung would not have been possible.

(as well as for transport and food and clothing).

You're quite right, thriving cultures can exist in isolation from agriculture. But no highly developed civilization has/does.

[Paracelse]

wasn't Diogenes who lived on a pile of manure? It's no BS I guess we need dung to live. Ask any politicians in Washington Paris London etc...

[questionmark]

wasn't Diogenes who lived on a pile of manure? It's no BS I guess we need dung to live. Ask any politicians in Washington Paris London etc...

In a barrel, in a barrel...

[Trog]

If I may suggest , this knowledge is as old as mankind and still taken into consideration to this very day .... If you buy a house on a quarter acre block at the top of a hill you know the soil will be of poor quality , and for some this is good as they wont have to mow as often as that person who buys at the bottom of the hill who has to mow the grass practically every weekend .

My little quarter acre block is at the top of a hill and I don't have to mow very often , and that's how I like it .... It wouldn't have taken the Incas long to work that out .

[Grandpa Greenman]

We have the Incas to thank for french fries. They were the first to grow potatoes.