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acidhead

Israeli forces kill 13 protesters 225 wounded

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Erikl
perhaps people are overlooking the fact israel would not exist

this day if it wasn't for usa interfernce and force truce

till israel was provided by weapons and arms by their beloved EU

and usa

Same goes for Egypt, which get billions of dollars to buy weapons.

But let's tackle this one.

I hear this allegation that America gives money or weapon to Israel, and after working with few American officers in my service, I think I need to resolve this baseless claim.

You see, America created a huge military industry beginning in WW2 and continuing through all the Cold War. They prepared themselves to a World War that never happened. Now, what happened to the Soviet industry, we all know and the younger generation can watch Nicholas Kage's Lord of War movie to catch up.

But what about the American weapon industry? How to develop new weapons without testing them? Europe was a stalemate for 66 years now, Korea for 57, Africa didn't need high tech weaponry (they were and still do kill each other with AKs), South America is now totally contained, etc.

However, after Israel won the Six Days war, against 7 well trained armies armed with Soviet arsenal, they decided to use Israel as a sort of a test lab for weapons. Israel is a natural ally - it's democratic, it has a lot of support from American Jews, and we had a mutual enemy - Arab states which were backed by the Soviets, the arch-enemy during the Cold War.

So America gave coupon money to Israel, in the form of FMA - Foreign Military Aid - which means Israel get's dollars but has to invest the same amount in American industry - that is, American military industry.

After Egypt cut itself from the Soviets in 1977, they also joined in, but out of moral obligation and good partnership, the FMA is lower.

Should America stop giving FMA - tens of thousands of Americans will lose their jobs, hundreds of factories will close, and basically American military industry will follow the Soviet case.

So now that that's settled, let's tackle your other nonsense.

when syria and egypt nearly destroyed israel

or such things are beyond rememberance ?

Yes, they attacked us on Yom Kippur, when all the country was fasting <_< . And guess where did you get this idea? from Nazi war criminals that Egypt harbored and you still do.

isreal was so desperate to the level they threatened to use nuclear

now isn't that a fact ?

Not everything you read in a Tom Clancy book is actually the truth :rolleyes:

that was the history lession for the day

it was about the unitiy between syria and egypt and the results

they nearly destroyed israel if it wasn't for western interfernce

and let's face it . whenever we say western interfernce

it's 99% of times for israel's good profit not arabs

Ah, another lie from the indoctrinated Baath student.

The war of 1973 nearly destroyed Israel? LOL.

Let's see what history has to tell us about it:

The war began with a massive and successful Egyptian crossing of the Suez Canal during the first three days, after which they dug in, settling into a stalemate. The Syrians coordinated their attack on the Golan Heights to coincide with the Egyptian offensive and initially made threatening gains against the greatly outnumbered Israelis. Within a week, Israel recovered and launched a four-day counter-offensive, driving deep into Syria. To relieve this pressure, the Egyptians went back on the offensive, but were decisively defeated; the Israelis then counterattacked at the seam between two Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal, and advanced southward and westward in over a week of heavy fighting. An October 22 United Nations-brokered ceasefire quickly unraveled, with each side blaming the other for the breach. By 24 October, the Israelis had improved their positions considerably and completed their encirclement of Egypt's Third Army. This development led to tensions between the United States and the Soviet Union. As a result, a second ceasefire was imposed cooperatively on October 25 to end the war. At the conclusion of hostilities, Israeli forces were 40 kilometres (25 mi) from Damascus and 101 kilometres (63 mi) from Cairo.

And this was when your Soviet arsenal was up to date. Now, 20 years after the collapse of your patron, with your rusty T72 tanks and MiGs fighters, couple that with rebellion of the general population and collapsing economy, and good luck :tu:.

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Karlis

Folks, scroll back to my previous post, and read the article in the OP.

Stay on the OP topic -- *not* on past history.

Karlis -- moderator team member

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Mr.United_Nations

Part of >the article in the OP reads as follows:

Israel has accused Syrian President Bashar al-Assad of permitting the Golan protests to try to divert international attention from his bloody suppression of the popular revolt against his authoritarian rule. "The Syrian leadership is encouraging events on the Golan Heights in order to divert the world's attention away from the bloodbath they have inflicted on their own people," Dore Gold, a former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, told Reuters.

NEW TACTIC FEARED

Israel is concerned that protests by unarmed demonstrators are a new tactic adopted by Palestinians, inspired by popular revolts in the Arab world, to draw a violent response and gain more world sympathy for their cause.

Rather than delve back into past history, would anyone care to discuss the pros and cons of the above?

Karlis -- moderator team member

I think Israel is panic pointing, they have no real leadership and they think this is a good reason to attack Syria.

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Corp

Why would Israel want to attack Syria when it's in the middle of a large revolt? It's in their interests to just sit back and watch things happen.

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MichaelW

perhaps people are overlooking the fact israel would not exist

this day if it wasn't for usa interfernce and force truce

till israel was provided by weapons and arms by their beloved EU

and usa

when syria and egypt nearly destroyed israel

or such things are beyond rememberance ?

isreal was so desperate to the level they threatened to use nuclear

now isn't that a fact ?

Israel wasn't openly supported by the US until 1973. Before hand, their main backers were the British and the French, whom the Israelis recieved the most weapons and funding from. Israel's existance is down to the British. How could you not know this?

And yet I recall Damascus nearly fell to the Israelis and President Sadat rang up the Soviets begging him to save Egypt from the Israeli tanks. It wasn't Israeli forces who were encircled in the Sinai.

Knight, please do a bit more research before you reply.

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MichaelW

Part of >the article in the OP reads as follows:

Israel has accused Syrian President Bashar al-Assad of permitting the Golan protests to try to divert international attention from his bloody suppression of the popular revolt against his authoritarian rule. "The Syrian leadership is encouraging events on the Golan Heights in order to divert the world's attention away from the bloodbath they have inflicted on their own people," Dore Gold, a former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, told Reuters.

NEW TACTIC FEARED

Israel is concerned that protests by unarmed demonstrators are a new tactic adopted by Palestinians, inspired by popular revolts in the Arab world, to draw a violent response and gain more world sympathy for their cause.

Rather than delve back into past history, would anyone care to discuss the pros and cons of the above?

Karlis -- moderator team member

It's just shifting the blame onto someone else. The Syria government knows its in the wrong but it doesn't want to admit it.

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MichaelW

I think Israel is panic pointing, they have no real leadership and they think this is a good reason to attack Syria.

Israel doesn't need to intervene. It has the luxury of sitting back and watching Syria self destruct. Israel has already got what it wants from Syria. It doesn't want anythinhg else.

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Knight Of Shadows

i won't go back in history more for the sake of the topic as mentioned

however few words can explain it for both michael and erkil

that is .. if they know history :

open airline from usa base - to israel

includes weapons .. tanks and their full " usa " crew within

weapons and firearms .. and supported it by international laws

the war of 1973

perhaps you guys who need to make research before posting silly stuff

anyway .. am out

ohhh .. and erkil .. please stop calling me bathist or implying to

i feel offended by that cousin :tu:

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Erikl

KoS... :lmao:

Read my post on this page again. Then again. It addresses exactly what you said in your "non-history referring" post :rolleyes:

As for Baathist - I hope one day your country will be true democracy, and we can come and grab some delicious Hummus in Damascus (known as the best Hummus in the Middle East btw :tu:).

In the mean time good luck in your revolution, I hope the Muslim Brotherhood will not hijack it, and that Assad and the rest of his criminal gang will be toppled, put on trial and get what they deserve for more than 40 years of oppression.

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MichaelW

i won't go back in history more for the sake of the topic as mentioned

however few words can explain it for both michael and erkil

that is .. if they know history :

open airline from usa base - to israel

includes weapons .. tanks and their full " usa " crew within

weapons and firearms .. and supported it by international laws

the war of 1973

So, now you're repeating what I said. What is wrong with you? I told you that this is what happened.

Shows what you know. Here's what I posted:

Israel wasn't openly supported by the US until 1973. Before hand, their main backers were the British and the French, whom the Israelis recieved the most weapons and funding from. Israel's existance is down to the British.

Read what I post next time please.

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Knight Of Shadows

KoS... :lmao:

Read my post on this page again. Then again. It addresses exactly what you said in your "non-history referring" post :rolleyes:

As for Baathist - I hope one day your country will be true democracy, and we can come and grab some delicious Hummus in Damascus (known as the best Hummus in the Middle East btw :tu:).

In the mean time good luck in your revolution, I hope the Muslim Brotherhood will not hijack it, and that Assad and the rest of his criminal gang will be toppled, put on trial and get what they deserve for more than 40 years of oppression.

if there was ever peace the Hummus is on me :D

i know a good place

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theDragon

As far as I can see, through media and many other sources, Israeli attacks on civilians is justified only by Israeli citizens and their leaders. In almost all occasions I've heard people talk about Israel, it was in a VERY negative way, and those were people from all religions, INCLUDING jews that don't live there. I don't live in Middle East, I live in Europe, and I know what happened in Srebrenica on 1995, the genocide against Bosniak people (the only genocide in Europe after World War 2). The Serb army who performed the mass executions used the same methods of covering their crimes like Israeli forces are doing it today. They kill innocent civilians under a claim that they are "terrorists" or that they are "defeding from terrorism", and the only ones who actually buy it are themselves and American puppet Zionist government. It's funny to see how Israeli people get brainwashed by their media on a daily basis, I know that because I've watched reports on Israeli televisions translated to English and I've seen and heard so many lies and made-up situations there that I want to puke every time I remember those nasty lies.

Israel is nothing but an occupator, and Israeli people will probably never give up on their "God's given right" to live there, but they can't expect people of Middle East to live 60 years in a war-zone and be peaceful toward them. Just count it, people who now have 50 years (full grown and experienced man) were born, have lived and are still living in a WAR ZONE. It's not their guilt that Jews forcefully settled their homes back when their fathers lived there, but they're still living in a poor state bombed on a regular basis, and even worse, they are being accused of terrorism just because they want to live where their fathers and their ancestors lived for generations. So, what I can conclude here is that Israelis are just that type of people who want to dominate all the others, nothing better than Nazi Germany was back in the 40's. And yet, they accuse people of "anti-semitism", just when someone tries to reveal the truth to the world.

And as I already said, majority of people that I know (more than 90%) are aware of what Israel is doing, and NO ONE of them likes your filthy agenda. Even Americans start to awake, many people are aware of the Zionist plans in this world, and Israel is a direct sponsor of that idea, so that is why more and more people will stand against your totalitarian rule. You can call it democracy, I call it SLAVOCRACY. And here's a little explanation made by one of my favorite bands, Samael:

Edited by theDragon

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MichaelW

Firstly, many Israelis want peace. I know because I know a couple of them. Secondly, many Israelis will accept a land bargain between them and the Palestinians. Thridly, Israel does not occupy Gaza and hasn't done so for at least five or six years. Not to mention the fact that ancient history proves that both ancient predecessors of the Israelis and Palestinians were foreign peoples.

So, sorry to bust your agenda wide open. But don't let history and facts get in the way of your little "crusade".

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Erikl

Michael, this ignorant doesn't even deserve a response.

I would just post for the mods, the following criteria for what counts as antisemitism (yes, that thing he himself mentioned so he could get away with it):

In 2005, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), then an agency of the European Union, developed a more detailed definition: "Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for 'why things go wrong'."

It then listed "contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere." These included: "Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews; accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group; denying the Holocaust; and accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. It also listed ways in which attacking Israel could be antisemitic:

  • Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor;
  • Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;
  • Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;
  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis;
  • Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

The definition added that criticism of Israel cannot be regarded as antisemitism so long as it is "similar to that leveled against any other country."[26][27]

Source

I think this guy, has done the following:

[*]Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor;

[*]Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;

[*]Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis;

Which makes his post hate speech.

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danielost

Michael, this ignorant doesn't even deserve a response.

I would just post for the mods, the following criteria for what counts as antisemitism (yes, that thing he himself mentioned so he could get away with it):

Source

I think this guy, has done the following:

[*]Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor;

[*]Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;

[*]Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis;

Which makes his post hate speech.

but syria isnt a democracy.

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theDragon

Hahah Yes I'm ignorant because I look at this situation from a different angle. And of course, the easiest way of hiding the truth is CENSORSHIP. You can try and censor my posts for how long you want, the truth can't be hidden forever ;) I am not a hateful person, and I had many many people from all over the world talking to me, sharing common sense about Palestine and those people included Jews as well. I do not think that Jews don't deserve to have a state, I never said that Jews should be exiled or something, I was just saying that they are OCCUPYING another country. At the time, Palestine was under British rule, and after the WW2 ended, Israel was formed under very ignorant policy which was lead against the locals who lived in their ancestral land. Israeli claims that Palestinian land doesn't belong to them because their God didn't say so is very lame and very aggressive. Calling me an anti-semitism propagator is the best you can do to defend your own people's mistakes ;)

All those "rules" which define anti-semitism were written by MEN in order to prevent people from spreading the truth. MEN can deviate truth, MEN are not innocent. What the heck, even MEN decided to invade Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan for such silly reasons that no one normal in this world would approve. You have your protectors, the US government for now, but USA won't be a super-power forever. All empires perish eventually, and I'm not calling for armageddon or something on global scale, I'm just saying that history REPEATS very often. You could live peacefully if you actually didn't KILL civilians under such a shameful claim that "they support terrorism". That's the FACT! You and your people do that because YOU are anti-humanists! Anti-semitism is a phrase constructed in order to shut the mouth of those who want to dig deeper and who want to spread the truth about what's happening in Palestine. And you can call me a hater, a racist or whatever you want, I know that I've NEVER killed a man, and I know that I'd NEVER support killing of civilians, no matter who they are: Jews, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Atheist, Pagan or whatever else religion you name. Ethnicity and religion are LAME excuses to call someone a "terrorist" or whatever.

I'm calling your GOVERNMENT a terrorist organization, and you say that all people of Israel stand behind their government. You said it yourself! That is why I can openly say that in my eyes, YOU are the terrorists who perform terror over civilians! I know that there are terrorist organization in Palestine too, but if you actually bomb CIVILIANS, you're no different than those same terrorists you want to catch!

And if you had at least 1% decency in you, you'd investigate all the EVIL deeds that your little Mossad has done over the past 50 years ;)

You can ban me or whatever you want, I am only speaking truth and getting banned on this site won't change the world ;) The world is awakening and all of you know it :)

Israel has most of the western media on their side, US tax payers give you THEIR money without even knowing it, your agents infested US government, they are even pushing US congressmen to make certain decisions to prevent Palestine from becoming a state and now you give me that "anti-semitism" tag in order to make me look like some mad lunatic racist in front of the forum members? :) All I can say is L O L!

I know I sound mad in my posts, that's because my brain CANNOT handle those pictures of massacred CHILDREN and blown bodies all over the Palestinian streets which occurs every few months or so, and it's been going on for 60 years! I cannot believe that you don't have the smallest sympathy, it's children for God's sake! I know that you have lost Israelis too, but most of your victims are probably soldiers, and even that doesn't give your people right to kill someone, to hunt someone like they were animals and not human!!!

To all of you here's a nice little video that shows some of the things which I'm talking about.

PEOPLE ARE AWAKENING!

Edited by theDragon

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MichaelW

You can get off the soapbox now.

Look, you can ignore what anyone else says and rant on about that agenda you have or you can debate like the rest of us.

Your choice.

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theDragon

I've actually read many of your comments here in the previous pages, but still, none of you have an argument which proves that Israel is a peaceful state, willing to coexist peacefully with other neighboring countries.

Even more, they bomb civilians, and the only thing "worthy" of your attention is a debate about that? Well, sorry to say this, but debating about the dead children won't stop that horrifying act from happening again and again. Debating over this is losing precious time!

I'm just saying that if Israeli public clearly close their eyes over the crimes that have been done in their name, then no one can expect a peaceful resolution in the area. Who started the war? Some will say that Arabs did, but history clearly says it was the forming of state of Israel that ignited the war even before the Arabs went to war in order to reclaim lands occupied by Israel some years earlier.

You think I'm preaching some kind of lunacy here? Fine, your own opinion. I'm not trying to get attention on ME, since I'm just an average forum user, I don't have anything to promote with this, but one thing: HUMANISM. I don't blame every Jew for Israel's bad deeds, I'm blaming Israel's government and all the people who support them. If my best friend supported Israel and their aggressive behaviour, I'd use the same level of critique on him as I'm using it here. But you don't want to see my point here since I'm "screaming" at everyone. I told you why am I screaming: I find it really disgusting and disturbing to see all those images of dead Palestinian civilians almost every time Israel "defends" their country.

I will repeat once more, in order that some of you didn't see it in my previous posts: I AM NOT AGAINST Israel as a state, because I believe that all peoples should have their right to have a country, but I am AGAINST oppresive policy, against aggressive armies, I am against killing of civilians! It is such a shame that Israeli media (almost always) shows those civilians as parts of some terrorist groups in order to justify their murder. That is sad and disturbs me a lot! Is that the "democracy" everyone's been talking about?

Edited by theDragon

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MichaelW

I'm reading some of your other posts and it is becoming apparent you have some form of agenda. Other posters with the same opinions as you refrain from amking irrelevant comments not related to topic. If you want to rant on and on, that is fine but please keep the rants at least in the sub-forum where they belong.

I find it disturbing that you don't consider the conflict from both sides. How much do you know about the history?

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Mr.United_Nations

YES ANOTHER EUROPEAN WHO AGREES WITH ME! Im wondering that Israel is becoming a nazi state and all they do is attack Palestine every year even though if Israel started it. I think TheDragon represents the millions of Europeans who don't like Israels actions.

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theDragon

I'm reading some of your other posts and it is becoming apparent you have some form of agenda. Other posters with the same opinions as you refrain from amking irrelevant comments not related to topic. If you want to rant on and on, that is fine but please keep the rants at least in the sub-forum where they belong.

I find it disturbing that you don't consider the conflict from both sides. How much do you know about the history?

With all respect, but New Zealand's neighbors are Australia, Oceania and Antarctica. Please, let us Europeans worry about our neighbors (Middle East and North Africa). You worry about yours. I have an agenda - To spread the truth!

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danielost

With all respect, but New Zealand's neighbors are Australia, Oceania and Antarctica. Please, let us Europeans worry about our neighbors (Middle East and North Africa). You worry about yours. I have an agenda - To spread the truth!

then you might want to spread the truth. the jews started buying land in the 1800s. the first attack was around 1934, this was one year after the leader of the area had welcomed home. the jews were the ones who was attacked. for the next 20 years or so, the jews did everything including forbiding weapons to their group to even defend themselves. then they helped the arabs to push the british out. then the arabs way of saying thanks was to turn around and attack the jews.

http://eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/

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Karlis

Folks, scroll back to my previous post, and read the article in the OP.

Stay on the OP topic -- *not* on past history.

Karlis -- moderator team member

If posts based on intolerance continue -- rather than staying on topic -- this thread will be closed.

Your choice folks,

Karlis -- moderator team member

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Erikl

theDragon, let me quote myself from another thread where you posted your lies:

theDragon, in heart you know you are lying, trying to deligitimize Israel and believe in your sick mind that it is somehow the worse country in the world, far worst than all the dictatorships in the region.

You equate the conflict to what happened in Serbia - where there is no parallel. Every dictator (from the kings of the 19th century to Hitler, Stalin etc.) uses the definition of terrorism to give excuse to persecute and oppress his enemies, that doesn't mean that all terrorists are innocent. That's just demagogy.

And this is what you are - hatred filled demagogue, who covers himself with the umbrella of the victim that cannot criticize Israel without being labelled as a racist. Well, dear demagogue, as you are well aware - it is legitimate to criticize Israel. All of it's citizens are doing just that - because it is a democracy. It is not legitimate to be biased against Israel, accuse it of things without any proof (just your opinions - that's called blood libel), single it out from the rest of the nations, and equate it to the Nazis (that's a classic antisemitic act - now that the Jews got their own country they behave just like their worst enemies, eh?).

Just claiming something makes you no better than Goebbels, one of the highest ranking demagogues of the 20th century.

As for your morality - you are no better than the advocates of the Nazis in the Nuremberg Trials, siding with dictatorships that ruthlessly oppress their own people and incite to hate an entire nation.

While I can understand where KoS is coming from - it's his country and if he really reside in Syria then he has to pay lip service to his regime, or we won't be seeing him again - you have no excuse. Just another Useful Idiot of criminal regimes of this world, disguising himself to be "knight of human rights".

And just add that all your conspiracy theories here remind me of the conspiracies against America not being a democracy. European left has lost the will to live it seems.

But never mind - House of Freedom and Democracy Index still, as of 2011, labels both Israel and America as democracy. Israel, btw, is ranking 37 - ahead of many European countries :tu:.

But you keep siding with human rights violators under the mask of human rights advocate :rolleyes: .

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Knight Of Shadows

yeah of course i loved the last part about the human rights

palestinians are animals eh .. the human rights don't apply to them ?

is that what you think ?

don't blame me .. you posted from other topic .. so i get the right to reply

and your mockery of the human rights on palestinians

shows both disdain and mockery by your self to palestinians

and also that's disgusting fact that you think they're below

humans rights in your sick twisted opinion

after all .. UN , EU , Human Rights ..

were all made just to protect israel eh ?

excuse me your highness .. certinally palestinans does not deserve

human rights comapare NO NO

you're pretty silly cousin .. you need to work on your posts more

don't be a clown with double standards ..

poke your eye with your finger .. if it hurts you .. it hurts others as well

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