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Persia

Efforts to Ban Circumcision Gain Traction

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bacca

So if you want to find a line in what medical procedures a parent and can not opt for what is that line and by the way I do not subscribe to the idea of mutilation so that is something that again is how you personally see it...there are a lot of fathers out there who want their son's to be circumcised (even if they weren't) You can't pick and choose what a parent has the right to do with the child in the instance, the parent looks at the research (hopefully from both sides of the debate) and talks to the doctor and makes a decision, it's not like most parents are using a pair scissors at home here, doctors are the ones doing the procedure, the theory of sugar water is being looked into for those of you who are worried about pain but as a parent I want to give my child the best possible chance in every way and if that means that I decide to do something that I and his doctor feel is the best option, someone who does not know me or my child should have no say in the choice...

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Kelbie25

During circumcision nerve endings are removed, therefore you are losing feeling FACT.

All the reasons you state are not fact and based on myths. I notice you didn't include the following, which I found just above the info you copied and pasted: Scientific studies show some medical benefits of circumcision. However, these benefits are not sufficient for the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) to recommend that all infant boys be circumcised.

My main concern here is, what gives you the right to decided which body parts your son can or cannot have? I would never circumcise my child unless there was a medical reason and I had exhausted every other possibility first. It is not my body to decide.

Your child is not your possession.

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The Skeptic Eric Raven

That depends on where you grew up. In Europe and most of Asia you would stick out like a sore thumb.

Thank god I wasn't born there then. :yes:

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Doctor_Strangelove

So if you want to find a line in what medical procedures a parent and can not opt for what is that line and by the way I do not subscribe to the idea of mutilation so that is something that again is how you personally see it...there are a lot of fathers out there who want their son's to be circumcised (even if they weren't) You can't pick and choose what a parent has the right to do with the child in the instance, the parent looks at the research (hopefully from both sides of the debate) and talks to the doctor and makes a decision, it's not like most parents are using a pair scissors at home here, doctors are the ones doing the procedure, the theory of sugar water is being looked into for those of you who are worried about pain but as a parent I want to give my child the best possible chance in every way and if that means that I decide to do something that I and his doctor feel is the best option, someone who does not know me or my child should have no say in the choice...

mu·ti·late (mytl-t)

tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates

1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.

2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.

3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

So, yeah. I think mutilation is an appropriate word.

Thank god I wasn't born there then. :yes:

Me too. Anywhere that waving a penis at each other is the norm is somewhere I don't want to live either.

Edited by Doctor_Strangelove

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The Skeptic Eric Raven

During circumcision nerve endings are removed, therefore you are losing feeling FACT.

Thats freaking great, because if I was alot more sensitive then sex would last 10 seconds. :w00t:

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Kelbie25

So if you want to find a line in what medical procedures a parent and can not opt for what is that line and by the way I do not subscribe to the idea of mutilation so that is something that again is how you personally see it...there are a lot of fathers out there who want their son's to be circumcised (even if they weren't) You can't pick and choose what a parent has the right to do with the child in the instance, the parent looks at the research (hopefully from both sides of the debate) and talks to the doctor and makes a decision, it's not like most parents are using a pair scissors at home here, doctors are the ones doing the procedure, the theory of sugar water is being looked into for those of you who are worried about pain but as a parent I want to give my child the best possible chance in every way and if that means that I decide to do something that I and his doctor feel is the best option, someone who does not know me or my child should have no say in the choice...

The line is obvious where I'm sat. The only medical procedure I would consent to on my child would be those that benefit my child, that are necessary for what ever reason. Including circumcision. I wouldn't do it for the sake of it, based on outdated myths.

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I

Foreskin infections

Urinary tract infections

Penile cancer

Sexually transmitted diseases

Phimosis, a condition in uncircumcised males that makes foreskin retraction impossible

Well, what you don't have cannot infect, right?

Urinary tract infections has been disproven as circumstantial by Singh-Geval et al. (2004) coming to the conclusion that you have a 1:100 chance to prevent a urinary tract infection by circumcision, where the chance is below of the rate of spontaneous healing thereof.

Penile cancer is circumstantially linked to circumcision because it is prevalent in South America and South Africa where circumcision is not common. What gets ignored by the authors is that in Europe and Asia, where it is not common either, the incidence of penile cancer is lower than in the US. So this is what we call a faulty study as it only shows evidence that could be owed to other circumstances.

In sexually transmitted diseases we have a mixed record, while there is a study claiming that it protects against Syphilis and Chancroids there same study shows that circumcised are more susceptible to Herpes. Van Howe (1999) shows that circumcised are more susceptible to HIV/Aids.

And Phimosis is not an illness in that sense it is a birth defect, and the only circumstances under which I would suggest a partial circumcision at a later age.

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Kelbie25

Thats freaking great, because if I was alot more sensitive then sex would last 10 seconds. :w00t:

Hahah means and ways my friend!

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bacca

mu·ti·late (mytl-t)

tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates

1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.

2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.

3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

So, yeah. I think mutilation is an appropriate word.

I don't know anyone who feels like being circumcised is making it imperfect, most no every woman I know prefers it after it's circumcised, you aren't deprived of anything or made cripple, and what are you disfiguring? Those don't hold up to how people view the penis before and after the procedure...

Look, I don't care what other people choose to do, have it done or not, the point is that it isn't my right to say what they can and can not do in this case, the land of the free certainly is becoming the land of let me tell you what to do based on what I feel is right isn't it?

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ShadowSot

Checking the AAP's website which you state you're sourcing, I' not seeing that they recommend circumcision as it does not provide significant health benefits.

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Kelbie25

Checking the AAP's website which you state you're sourcing, I' not seeing that they recommend circumcision as it does not provide significant health benefits.

I found everything quoted here: http://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/prenatal/decisions-to-make/pages/Circumcision.aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token

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Doctor_Strangelove

I don't know anyone who feels like being circumcised is making it imperfect, most no every woman I know prefers it after it's circumcised, you aren't deprived of anything or made cripple, and what are you disfiguring? Those don't hold up to how people view the penis before and after the procedure...

Your interpretation differs, I'll share mine.

1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.

Many people consider foreskin to be an essential part of the penis. And it is. Humans were evolved with it for a reason. Unless you subscribe to creationist "theory", then that whole "Image of God" thing can come to play.

2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.

Circumcision hits this exactly.

3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

This varies with country or culture, so I'm not touching this with a ten foot pole.

Look, I don't care what other people choose to do, have it done or not, the point is that it isn't my right to say what they can and can not do in this case, the land of the free certainly is becoming the land of let me tell you what to do based on what I feel is right isn't it?

Oh yes, the freedom card. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't female circumcision banned in America? You don't hear too many people complaining about that, now do you?

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Kelbie25

The AAP policy is here: http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;103/3/686

Here is a bit THE ROLE OF HYGIENE

Circumcision has been suggested as an effective method of maintaining penile hygiene since the time of the Egyptian dynasties, but there is little evidence to affirm the association between circumcision status and optimal penile hygiene.

In one study, appropriate hygiene decreased significantly the incidence of phimosis, adhesions, and inflammation, but did not eliminate all problems.29 In this study, 60% of parents remembered receiving instructions on the care of the uncircumcised penis, and most followed the advice they were given. Various studies suggest that genital hygiene needs to be emphasized as a preventive health topic throughout a patient's lifetime.16,21,29,30

Edited by Kelbie25

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bacca

Again, there is a lot of information and it is the choice of the parents what they believe or not or even if the benefit is small it is still their choice, when I had my child there was no mandatory testing for certain things because some doctors didn't feel it was necessary yet the mortality rate was extremely high if the mother tested positive, as an informed person I got tested and thankfully I have my child as he may not be here if I didn't get the medication while in labor...Nothing is certain and as a parent we do what we think is best and if their doctor agrees who is anyone else to say they can't have it done? Again if you who are so opposed are having problems then I'm sorry, and if your not then I don't fully understand your issue here, not one of you has stated that you remember the procedure being done and have some lasting emotional trauma from it, and again I say that if you have issues with sensation then you need to talk to your doctor but this is still a parents choice if you don't like it don't do it but you have no right to make this decision for everyone else

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Kelbie25

For those misinformed on the pain aspect: ANALGESIA

There is considerable evidence that newborns who are circumcised without analgesia experience pain and physiologic stress. Neonatal physiologic responses to circumcision pain include changes in heart rate, blood pressure, oxygen saturation, and cortisol levels.36-39 One report has noted that circumcised infants exhibit a stronger pain response to subsequent routine immunization than do uncircumcised infants.40 Several methods to provide analgesia for circumcision have been evaluated.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;103/3/686

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The AAP policy is here: http://aappolicy.aap...trics;103/3/686

Here is a bit THE ROLE OF HYGIENE

Circumcision has been suggested as an effective method of maintaining penile hygiene since the time of the Egyptian dynasties, but there is little evidence to affirm the association between circumcision status and optimal penile hygiene.

In one study, appropriate hygiene decreased significantly the incidence of phimosis, adhesions, and inflammation, but did not eliminate all problems.29 In this study, 60% of parents remembered receiving instructions on the care of the uncircumcised penis, and most followed the advice they were given. Various studies suggest that genital hygiene needs to be emphasized as a preventive health topic throughout a patient's lifetime.16,21,29,30

Wow, so they go with old Egyptian superstitions? Great, now I wonder why they don't also suggest Pharaohnic circumcision for girls? After all the Egyptians considered that best for female hygiene too!

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ShadowSot

So, since parents have complete control over their children, can they then decide to swap the child's gender, or should Child Protective Services be disbanded?

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bacca

So, since parents have complete control over their children, can they then decide to swap the child's gender, or should Child Protective Services be disbanded?

This is not endangering the child, it is not beating them or starving them or in my opinion over feeding them, can we do that too please? If we ban circumcision because some people feel that a parent shouldn't have that much control I say we take kids away from parents who feel the kids junk food and the kid is over weight, that leads to life long health problems and emotional problems if the child is picked on, all that is a lot more traumatic then being circumcised at a day old but no one will go there right? Where do you draw the line? At who's opinion do we stop banning things? Or should all kids just be given to the state so that all ya'll who want your opinions followed will be able to get your way? Until the state makes a decision then you can tell them that they didn't have a right to do something because the kids aren't theirs!!!

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Kelbie25

Wow, so they go with old Egyptian superstitions? Great, now I wonder why they don't also suggest Pharaohnic circumcision for girls? After all the Egyptians considered that best for female hygiene too!

I know crazy or what, here in England it is only ever done for medical purposes. They will not even consent to it if a person is religious.

Wow, so they go with old Egyptian superstitions? Great, now I wonder why they don't also suggest Pharaohnic circumcision for girls? After all the Egyptians considered that best for female hygiene too!

I know crazy or what, here in England it is only ever done for medical purposes. They will not even consent to it if a person is religious.

Wow, so they go with old Egyptian superstitions? Great, now I wonder why they don't also suggest Pharaohnic circumcision for girls? After all the Egyptians considered that best for female hygiene too!

I know crazy or what, here in England it is only ever done for medical purposes. They will not even consent to it if a person is religious.

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ShadowSot

Hey, swapping a kids gender doesn't necessarily cause any health problems. Just means a little extra bit of a snip to what's already been done.

In fact, gender reassessment surgery is provided as a choice should the circumcision be botched.

Look, what you're saying is that parents should have the right to whittle on their kids, for no reason. Health effects have been discussed and disprove.

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I know crazy or what, here in England it is only ever done for medical purposes. They will not even consent to it if a person is religious.

In the US it is, up to this point, a standard procedure at birth, religious reasons or not. The probem with reactionaries is that they rather deal with the known devil than with the unknown angel. That is why, despite ample evidence of the pain a child suffers by circumcision it is still done.

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Kelbie25

Well I don't know what the hell happened up there, but I apologise.

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bacca

In the US it is, up to this point, a standard procedure at birth, religious reasons or not. The probem with reactionaries is that they rather deal with the known devil than with the unknown angel. That is why, despite ample evidence of the pain a child suffers by circumcision it is still done.

Simple things like sugar water (which helps babies with pain) could combat that, so IF they are in pain for the 60 seconds it takes they won't be with that, and if it is such excruciating pain why do they only cry for a minute? Why aren't they crying for hours or even for many minutes? But they don't just like with shots, they cry initially then when they realize it's done in a second they stop...

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Simple things like sugar water (which helps babies with pain) could combat that, so IF they are in pain for the 60 seconds it takes they won't be with that, and if it is such excruciating pain why do they only cry for a minute? Why aren't they crying for hours or even for many minutes? But they don't just like with shots, they cry initially then when they realize it's done in a second they stop...

Sugar water combats pain? Wow, is this going to get any better?

Read this before spouting crap please:

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/howard/

The only way to stop the immediate pain is a ring blocker, which can lead to nerve damage. The pain after procedure cannot be stopped unless strong medication is used that in a small child can lead to complications.

I wonder where people get this crap from.

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H.H. Holmes

I am circumsized and I don't have any problem with it at all. No problems in sensitivity, nor any other health consequences.

Parents, if it is their preference, should be allowed to have their children circumsized. The procedure is relatively safe, helps with keeping the genitals clean, and is a religious rite. I don't see why it should be banned at all.

This seems like an extremist group trying to push their agenda on everyone else.

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