Professor Buzzkill Posted June 7, 2011 #201 Share Posted June 7, 2011 So how do you KNOW that a day old child is feeling pain? Did you ask it and it answered? and phantom pains? what because a baby cries it is in pain? that is so laughable it's beyond even talking about!!! You are trying to impose adult sensations and feelings onto babies that are not fully developed which is wrong, if you think that babies react in the same way to things as adults do then you have obviously never been around a baby Have you seen those pictures and videos I linked on the previous page? have you seen your own children being circumcised? Doctors in my country will not preform this operation, i wonder why? Maybe they think hurting babies with no tangable benefits is wrong, or perhaps goes against their Hippocratic Oath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacca Posted June 7, 2011 #202 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Have you seen those pictures and videos I linked on the previous page? have you seen your own children being circumcised? Doctors in my country will not preform this operation, i wonder why? Maybe they think hurting babies with no tangable benefits is wrong, or perhaps goes against their Hippocratic Oath? Different cultures have different ideas of what should and should not be done....how many doctors in your country are there? How many have you spoken to about this? 5? 10? 200? Have you asked them why they won't do it? If you are trying to say because the doctors that you know won't do it then it is wrong and that all the ideas that people are throwing around as fact (which they aren't, it is all debatable depending on who you talk to) means something then you are wrong...Do you think any medical procedure is pretty to watch? Again, putting an adults view on something that is being done to an infant is wrong, babies do not feel or react to the same things in the same ways as adults!!! There is no way to know for sure what babies do or don't feel...or are you also saying that there is now some way to measure pain? If there is that is one heck of a new discovery!!! If you can't get it done in your country that is fine, but I live in a free country where this should never have even been brought up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted June 7, 2011 #203 Share Posted June 7, 2011 You know I am willing to bet that of the males commenting those for it are circumsized and those against are not. I am just saying... Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelbie25 Posted June 7, 2011 #204 Share Posted June 7, 2011 (edited) How is it not cruel and barbaric? Numbing agents or not, they are forcibly removing skin that is fused to the penis which is there for the penis to be protected. Those who seriously think the foreskin and frenulum have no nerve endings are deluded. Edited June 7, 2011 by Kelbie25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted June 7, 2011 #205 Share Posted June 7, 2011 So how do you KNOW that a day old child is feeling pain? Did you ask it and it answered? and phantom pains? what because a baby cries it is in pain? that is so laughable it's beyond even talking about!!! You are trying to impose adult sensations and feelings onto babies that are not fully developed which is wrong, if you think that babies react in the same way to things as adults do then you have obviously never been around a baby Nowadays (and in the last ten years) whether something was painful or not is established by known parameters, such as brain currents and pulse alterations. They are scientifically recognized patterns and I have yet to see any dispute about them. And no, babies do not react like adults because they have yet to learn the appropriate reaction patterns. But because something does not react as you would expect from your adult point of view (which is what you are trying to imply attributing it to me) does not mean that it does not feel anything. That is like saying that a fish does not feel suffocation when pulled to land because it does not scream. Factual is that many childhood traumas, which include pain, from day one are habit forming and sometimes responsible for mental deviation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted June 7, 2011 #206 Share Posted June 7, 2011 You know I am willing to bet that of the males commenting those for it are circumsized and those against are not. I am just saying... Lol I must be the exception.... but that must be because of the information I have that the proponents are trying hard to ignore saying funny things like: "It did no harm to me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacca Posted June 7, 2011 #207 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Nowadays (and in the last ten years) whether something was painful or not is established by known parameters, such as brain currents and pulse alterations. They are scientifically recognized patterns and I have yet to see any dispute about them. And no, babies do not react like adults because they have yet to learn the appropriate reaction patterns. But because something does not react as you would expect from your adult point of view (which is what you are trying to imply attributing it to me) does not mean that it does not feel anything. That is like saying that a fish does not feel suffocation when pulled to land because it does not scream. Factual is that many childhood traumas, which include pain, from day one are habit forming and sometimes responsible for mental deviation. Again you may think you have a lot of information but none of it seems to be about babies....they don't need to learn the appropriate reaction patterns as you say that is ludicrous their brains are not fully developed they don't even have all the same bones that an adult will have their bodies are able to do things that an adult can....you are assuming that we know things based on the brain? so you post me the studies of baby brain functions at 1-2 days old, and you need to have at the very least hundreds for me to even look at it! And then I want something that says beyond a shadow of a doubt that everyone who has those things feels pain at X level, that everyone feels X level the same and there is no differences between people...good luck finding that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted June 7, 2011 #208 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Again you may think you have a lot of information but none of it seems to be about babies....they don't need to learn the appropriate reaction patterns as you say that is ludicrous their brains are not fully developed they don't even have all the same bones that an adult will have their bodies are able to do things that an adult can....you are assuming that we know things based on the brain? so you post me the studies of baby brain functions at 1-2 days old, and you need to have at the very least hundreds for me to even look at it! And then I want something that says beyond a shadow of a doubt that everyone who has those things feels pain at X level, that everyone feels X level the same and there is no differences between people...good luck finding that Now, are you claiming that babies do not feel pain? And if you are not, did you bother to check to works by Howard and Taddio above? Don't bother to answer because we know it. You are harping around on old superstitions because they are old. You don't even care to inform yourself attributing it to the fact that you know about babies. If most medical associations in the world consider circumcision at an early age as potentially physically and emotionally harmful (among them those of well developed countries like Britain, Denmark and the Netherlands) that is good enough for me to be against it. And a layperson who "knows about children" claiming something of an undeveloped brain and claiming they cannot feel pain is surely not gouing to dissuade me. Especially if the only arguments are the same thing going in a circle for the 50st time instead of providing evidence to any made claims except the assumption that babies do not feel pain. At least read the evidence medical doctors are bringing against circumcision instead of repeating your superstitions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacca Posted June 7, 2011 #209 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Now, are you claiming that babies do not feel pain? And if you are not, did you bother to check to works by Howard and Taddio above? Don't bother to answer because we know it. You are harping around on old superstitions because they are old. You don't even care to inform yourself attributing it to the fact that you know about babies. If most medical associations in the world consider circumcision at an early age as potentially physically and emotionally harmful (among them those of well developed countries like Britain, Denmark and the Netherlands) that is good enough for me to be against it. And a layperson who "knows about children" claiming something of an undeveloped brain and claiming they cannot feel pain is surely not gouing to dissuade me. Especially if the only arguments are the same thing going in a circle for the 50st time instead of providing evidence to any made claims except the assumption that babies do not feel pain. At least read the evidence medical doctors are bringing against circumcision instead of repeating your superstitions here. You are still claiming that YOUR opinion and what YOU believe should control everyone else...YOU I'm sorry to tell you are not that important...I choose to believe my doctors, I'm sorry if you feel that you know more about this then the medical professionals that I have spoken to that is your opinion to have, also when it comes to the workings of the human brain there is little that is definite, no professional can tell you with absolute certainty of anything, if you find someone who claims to be able to give you 100% accuracy with understanding it they are lying to you and it is your naivety to believe it, when it comes to infants again their brains are not even developed, you do understand that right? you can understand that a child is not built to feel things and react to things as a fully developed adult, which is why when they fall down they don't always cry, even if they get hurt and it would be painful for an adult, again if you think that this is not true you are reading certain things and have never been around a child...You have the right to your opinion but you need to keep that opinion away from me and my family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelbie25 Posted June 7, 2011 #210 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Now, are you claiming that babies do not feel pain? And if you are not, did you bother to check to works by Howard and Taddio above? Don't bother to answer because we know it. You are harping around on old superstitions because they are old. You don't even care to inform yourself attributing it to the fact that you know about babies. If most medical associations in the world consider circumcision at an early age as potentially physically and emotionally harmful (among them those of well developed countries like Britain, Denmark and the Netherlands) that is good enough for me to be against it. And a layperson who "knows about children" claiming something of an undeveloped brain and claiming they cannot feel pain is surely not gouing to dissuade me. Especially if the only arguments are the same thing going in a circle for the 50st time instead of providing evidence to any made claims except the assumption that babies do not feel pain. At least read the evidence medical doctors are bringing against circumcision instead of repeating your superstitions here. Would you care to share my brick wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurthurBB Posted June 7, 2011 #211 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Ah, so if lots of people doing it, then it must be ok. No, but when things are cultural norms, even if they are bad like spanking, it is better for information and knowledge to lead to their downfall than laws. I do not think circumcision is wrong like spanking, but if it is, then knowledge should be the thing to end the practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted June 7, 2011 #212 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Would you care to share my brick wall? No, I cease to argue with people incapable of checking up on simple references and if , when they don't agree with their superstitions, simply ignore the evidence. There is no worse deaf than those who don't want to hear. But surely children have to be protected against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurthurBB Posted June 7, 2011 #213 Share Posted June 7, 2011 There is? Because the normalized tests showed that there was no evident benefit (Weiss et al. March 2008). As I said, penile cancer is prevalent in African and South Americans, but not in Europeans and Asians where circumcision is not practiced as a rule, in fact in Europe evidently less frequent than in the States (see my post above for the link). That is quite evident then that circumcision has nothing to do with it. And according to theAmerican Cancer Association it does nothing to prevent it. So back to the drawing board. I read your link, but you cannot take one kind of penile cancer and then correlate it with another. I have actually read all these arguments and still I do not want to ban circumcision. You have read only one side of the argument and do. Where do we go from here, because posting old information is not going to change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelbie25 Posted June 7, 2011 #214 Share Posted June 7, 2011 How ludicrous of a comparison. Circumcision is FAR worse than spanking. You are permanently altering the body during circumcision. Anyone who deliberately causes physical harm to a child doesn't deserve them in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurthurBB Posted June 7, 2011 #215 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I don't see how what I said was untrue. If someone thinks that scars are beautiful and decides to cut themselves for aesthetic value, then that is alright with me. "Normal" is all about the culture and society that someone grows up in. As much as I don't approve of child beauty contests, I believe that it should be up to the parents whether or not they believe it is something they want for their children. I don't believe in forcing my views onto others, unless there is an very sensible reason to do so. None of us should believe in giving our rights away unless there is a very sensible reason to do so. If people are so passionate about this issue, then change people's minds through information. This is not something we need laws about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurthurBB Posted June 7, 2011 #216 Share Posted June 7, 2011 How ludicrous of a comparison. Circumcision is FAR worse than spanking. You are permanently altering the body during circumcision. Anyone who deliberately causes physical harm to a child doesn't deserve them in my view. How ludicrous that you think circumcision is worse than spanking. Sorry, I cannot agree, spanking is actually wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelbie25 Posted June 7, 2011 #217 Share Posted June 7, 2011 No, I cease to argue with people incapable of checking up on simple references and if , when they don't agree with their superstitions, simply ignore the evidence. There is no worse deaf than those who don't want to hear. But surely children have to be protected against them. I agree, I think something they seem to overlook every time is they do not own their children. No one has the right to maim someone else, whether they are their child or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurthurBB Posted June 7, 2011 #218 Share Posted June 7, 2011 There aren't any PROVEN facts here, there are opinions on both sides!!! I'm not sure what your definition of a fit parent is but where I live a parent who does everything that they can to do what is best for their children is not unfit! As a parent I have researched many different things from medicines to causes of allergies for my child and others, I have spoken to doctors and in the end I have to make a choice on what I feel is best for him...what I choose does not make me unfit because it doesn't fall into some idea that you have of what is right and wrong when it comes to this sort of thing...we do what we can and you know what as parents sometimes there are really hard choices to make and we can never be 100% sure that we make the right choice I find it extremely offensive that you would make a comment that people are unfit because of a medical procedure like this... You should not let someone bait you with this. It is obviously out of emotion that someone would say something as silly as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelbie25 Posted June 7, 2011 #219 Share Posted June 7, 2011 How ludicrous that you think circumcision is worse than spanking. Sorry, I cannot agree, spanking is actually wrong. How is circumcision not worse than spanking? During circumcision your removing a body part. This does not occur during spanking, and for the record I'm from England we do not spank. Any act that damages a child emotionally or physically is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurthurBB Posted June 7, 2011 #220 Share Posted June 7, 2011 There are videos of babies being circumcised, have a look at one then tell me its a good idea. My partner (who is filipino) wanted our boy to be circumcised, but couldn't find a doctor who would do the proceedure. Most of the medical professionals she asked in turn asked her "why?" I might add that we live in New Zealand, which is not americanized like the Philipines I have a lot of Jewish family members. I saw the first circumcision that I can remember when I was four and at least fifty since then. Do I really need to watch a video too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted June 7, 2011 #221 Share Posted June 7, 2011 How is circumcision not worse than spanking? During circumcision your removing a body part. This does not occur during spanking, and for the record I'm from England we do not spank. Any act that damages a child emotionally or physically is wrong. Good old eye for an eye philosophy. We know where it leads to: To the worlds 4th most violent nation. But then again: violence is the last resort of an incapable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted June 7, 2011 #222 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I have a lot of Jewish family members. I saw the first circumcision that I can remember when I was four and at least fifty since then. Do I really need to watch a video too? i would suggest you do, including the audio file of the Baby screaming. but they don't feel pain, just ask becca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted June 7, 2011 #223 Share Posted June 7, 2011 i would suggest you do, including the audio file of the Baby screaming. but they don't feel pain, just ask becca ...or you just give it some sugar water against the pain.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacca Posted June 7, 2011 #224 Share Posted June 7, 2011 First if you are going to use my name at least spell it right and two, questionmark if you are not going to look something up don't comment about it, I understand that you have problems and that you can't see past what seems to be issues you have with what happened to you as a child or what not, but your lack of ability to even see another side of an issue but instead to comment about things that you know nothing about and aren't even willing to do a 30 second google search for is very telling....I truly hope you don't have children because you will never be able to make the choices necessary as a parent as you can't see past yourself and you don't look into other sides, and again before you spout out that I'm not listening to you, I am and I have looked at information on both sides, and i have spoken to doctors where I live and I stand by having it done, if a parent does what I have done and makes the choice with the help of a doctor then that is the parents choice and theirs alone, no matter how important you think you are, you are not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Sam Posted June 7, 2011 #225 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'm seriously getting tired of other people thinking that they know what is best for the rest of America. Put it up for vote and see the true backing of this, then let the debate be ended once and for all. That is what we need, the government controlling every aspect of our lives including this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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