S.F Circumcision ban vs. Religious Freedom

[Professor Buzzkill]

You cannot compare child molesting to having the chop ... not the same thing.. not even close

Once again, how do YOU justify "the snip"?

I was just saying that the same justifications could be used for all manor of crazy sickening ideas

[Beckys_Mom]

Once again, how do YOU justify "the snip"?

There is nothing sick about it... ...If you call a child suffering what is stinging for a few moments sick... then I guess when a doctor puts a needle near a child is one heck of a sick freak?

[Professor Buzzkill]

There is nothing sick about it... ...If you call a child suffering what is stinging for a few moments sick... then I guess when a doctor puts a needle near a child is one heck of a sick freak?

And how is comparing a vacine or other medication a better comparison to circumcision then child molestation?

Vacines have a medical reason.

[Beckys_Mom]

And how is comparing a vacine or other medication a better comparison to circumcision then child molestation?

Vacines have a medical reason.

You were equating child molestation with having the chop to an infant... how on earth you found the logic in that I do not know... but you did mention the soreness of it all... so A needle is sore.. why not class that as sick too? you may as well IF you are only concerned with how the child may feel the pain....right??

Edited June 17, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[H.H. Holmes]

And how is comparing a vacine or other medication a better comparison to circumcision then child molestation?

Vacines have a medical reason.

Cirumcision has medical reasons, too.

What about vaccines that are completely optional, not required by school districts or the law? Should parents not be able to give those types of vaccines since there is no urgent medical need for them?

[Professor Buzzkill]

1Cirumcision has medical reasons, too.

2What about vaccines that are completely optional, not required by school districts or the law? Should parents not be able to give those types of vaccines since there is no urgent medical need for them?

1. No it doesn't. Except in rare cases, in which the foreskin becomes infected. So you need to have a forskin to know if you need it removed

2. Vaccines have medical reasons. Do your homework on the vaccine, make your own choice.

[Professor Buzzkill]

You were equating child molestation with having the chop to an infant... how on earth you found the logic in that I do not know... but you did mention the soreness of it all... so A needle is sore.. why not class that as sick too? you may as well IF you are only concerned with how the child may feel the pain....right??

Actually, what i was saying, and you might want to go back a read it, is that the same excuses for body modification on an infant could be used for all kinds of disgusting things that others might want to do.

Imagine, if you will, that you and everyone in the western world had never heard of circumcision. Then, one day a tribe is found in the amazon and they have this strange practise of cutting off the skin of the male babies penis' when they are born. Would you then think "hey! this is a great idea! Look at that penis, its so much better then any penis I have ever seen!" or would you think "Why?" or "those poor babies, that must hurt"?

[The Silver Thong]

Actually, what i was saying, and you might want to go back a read it, is that the same excuses for body modification on an infant could be used for all kinds of disgusting things that others might want to do.

Imagine, if you will, that you and everyone in the western world had never heard of circumcision. Then, one day a tribe is found in the amazon and they have this strange practise of cutting off the skin of the male babies penis' when they are born. Would you then think "hey! this is a great idea! Look at that penis, its so much better then any penis I have ever seen!" or would you think "Why?" or "those poor babies, that must hurt"?

I would think it`s there custom and keep my nose out of it.

Edited June 17, 2011 by The Silver Thong

[Professor Buzzkill]

I would think it`s there custom and keep my nose out of it.

So you wouldn't do it to your child or recommend your friends do it to thier children?

When does a custom become outdated and barbaric?

[The Silver Thong]

So you wouldn't do it to your child or recommend your friends do it to thier children?

When does a custom become outdated and barbaric?

When people decide on there own and it fades away into the night not some do gooder who thinks they are more right than the other and use a vote to enforce there view. When someone is elected and the vote was 49/51 do the 49 lose what they stand for.

If I did have a boy yes I would have him snipped. I was and I have nothing to be angered over let alone hold resentment. Would I recomend it to others, no it`s not my place to do so.

[Professor Buzzkill]

When people decide on there own and it fades away into the night not some do gooder who thinks they are more right than the other and use a vote to enforce there view. When someone is elected and the vote was 49/51 do the 49 lose what they stand for.

If I did have a boy yes I would have him snipped. I was and I have nothing to be angered over let alone hold resentment. Would I recomend it to others, no it`s not my place to do so.

Should we stop new customs involving body modifications (including removal of skin) on infants before they get popular?

I mean i have a few tattoos on my body, i love them, i think my children will love it, should i be able to tattoo my 1 day old son? It could become the next big custom

[The Silver Thong]

Should we stop new customs involving body modifications (including removal of skin) on infants before they get popular?

I mean i have a few tattoos on my body, i love them, i think my children will love it, should i be able to tattoo my 1 day old son? It could become the next big custom

Circumcision is far from a new custom, 3000 yrs old I recall so it may be hard to vote out of practice. As has been said many times the pro`s and con`s are up in the air. As was said if society said we should all have one ear cut off at birth it would be so. How many would claim to be jewish if it did become illegal lol damn just last week or so we had a thread on a women using a box cutter and a pair of pliers to give her son a circ. How many back allie circs will happen if illigalized.

Tattoos are as old as time and I don`t think they are religious well for the most part. Do you think you have the right to tell someone how to raise there child or should religion be made illegal for it conducts pratices that some don`t like.

Edited June 17, 2011 by The Silver Thong

[Professor Buzzkill]

Circumcision is far from a new custom, 3000 yrs old I recall so it may be hard to vote out of practice. As has been said many times the pro`s and con`s are up in the air. As was said if society said we should all have one ear cut off at birth it would be so. How many would claim to be jewish if it did become illegal lol damn just last week or so we had a thread on a women using a box cutter and a pair of pliers to give her son a circ. How many back allie circs will happen if illigalized.

Tattoos are as old as time and I don`t think they are religious well for the most part. Do you think you have the right to tell someone how to raise there child or should religion be made illegal for it conducts pratices that some don`t like.

I would like to think that there would be none. If circumcision was so common (for european desended males) then why as a white male did i not discover that circumcision was practised at all until in my teens? My country of origion is predomintly of european decent, but in the largest hospital in the country, when my partner wanted our son to be circumcised she couldn't find a doctor who would do the proceedure. Most of the medical professionals we asked asked us "why?"

I didn't want my son circumcised, as i wouldn't want my daughter or my dog circumcised, but went along with my partner as she is from a country where it is widely practised. She isn't upset that our boy isnt circumcised,but stated that men in her family are. She is from the philippines which is very amercianized, especially after WW2.

As far as i am concerned, religious practises that are harmful (i.e hurt and mutilate children) should be banned, just as in many parts of the world smacking a child is banned.

[The Silver Thong]

I would like to think that there would be none. If circumcision was so common (for european desended males) then why as a white male did i not discover that circumcision was practised at all until in my teens? My country of origion is predomintly of european decent, but in the largest hospital in the country, when my partner wanted our son to be circumcised she couldn't find a doctor who would do the proceedure. Most of the medical professionals we asked asked us "why?"

I didn't want my son circumcised, as i wouldn't want my daughter or my dog circumcised, but went along with my partner as she is from a country where it is widely practised. She isn't upset that our boy isnt circumcised,but stated that men in her family are. She is from the philippines which is very amercianized, especially after WW2.

As far as i am concerned, religious practises that are harmful (i.e hurt and mutilate children) should be banned, just as in many parts of the world smacking a child is banned.

I feel religion forced on a child is mental abuse where they have no choice. So by default you must agree with me. Why inforce a dogma and a bias on a child, let`s make sunday school illegal as it messing with a childs mind and is proven to extend into later life in there decision making. Let`s make sunday school illegal until the age of concent as it effects one for life. Is religion nessisary for a child, no so let`s ban it. Creationism needs to be outlawed, sharia law needs to be outlawed, the pope needs to be gaged and for god sake let`s put and end to the bs we call mormanism or scientoligy.

The effects of such beliefs harm a society much more then the snip. Let`s attack the root of the weed shall we and ban religion because me and millions of others see religion as harmful.

Mental abuse over many years is far more harmful.

Edited June 17, 2011 by The Silver Thong

[aquatus1]

So why do it in the first place?

Already asked and already answered. And it was a pretty good post too, well worth going back to read. I even worked in a Frank Herbert reference.

But then, how do you justify doing this to a baby?

"oh it only hurts for a few minutes!" or "they don't remember it at all!"

The last one. I even stated it as one of the primary reasons to do it as a baby.

I bet a child molester would want to do something with a baby that "only hurts for a few minutes" and "they don't remember it at all" but makes resonable people sick.

All right, that's enough of that nonsense.

Seriously...jeez...

[Beckys_Mom]

Actually, what i was saying, and you might want to go back a read it, is that the same excuses for body modification on an infant could be used for all kinds of disgusting things that others might want to do.

You made a mistake in equating sex abuse on to a child to an infant having the chop... that was your mistake.. you do not have any logic in that comparison ..

Come back when you have thought of a more logical comparison ....but it seems you do not understand the difference between child sex abuse and the chop done so commonly

[Mr Walker]

If a religious person believes that's how god intended you to be.. then I do not get why they want to alter that? I never understood it

If you are born blind, or get cancer,or born with a hole in the heart, does logic dictate that we should not intervene, because it is gods will? No. Humans are often biologically imperfect. We have already learned how to make considerable improvements in what we are born with.

However the rationale, again, depends on a logical weighing of the pros and cons.

When done to a very young child I honestly cant see any rational cons, only many emotional ones (for the parents not the child). And there do appear to be some, and perhaps many, rationsl pros for male circumscision I'm a classic, "well it didnt hurt me one little bit, and did me some good" kind of thinker.

[Beckys_Mom]

If you are born blind, or get cancer,or born with a hole in the heart,

Think about it MW... Not everyone is born blind or with an illness... All males are born with their ( well you know) foreskin over them... and many will go for the chop as infants.. it is a common thing to do

Like IE - Rottweillers .. they are born with long tails.. it is common for the owner to have the tail short...

[Mr Walker]

I feel religion forced on a child is mental abuse where they have no choice. So by default you must agree with me. Why inforce a dogma and a bias on a child, let`s make sunday school illegal as it messing with a childs mind and is proven to extend into later life in there decision making. Let`s make sunday school illegal until the age of concent as it effects one for life. Is religion nessisary for a child, no so let`s ban it. Creationism needs to be outlawed, sharia law needs to be outlawed, the pope needs to be gaged and for god sake let`s put and end to the bs we call mormanism or scientoligy.

The effects of such beliefs harm a society much more then the snip. Let`s attack the root of the weed shall we and ban religion because me and millions of others see religion as harmful.

Mental abuse over many years is far more harmful.

While we are at it, let's make it illegal to "indoctrinate" a child with the laws of the land, or its parents rules; and an offence to make a child obey either the rules of its parents or the laws of the land.

Lets not teach a child anything about; beliefs, values, ethics, or moralities, until its 18 or an adult. "LORD OF THE FLIES" time.

[Mr Walker]

Think about it MW... Not everyone is born blind or with an illness... All males are born with their ( well you know) foreskin over them... and many will go for the chop as infants.. it is a common thing to do

Like IE - Rottweillers .. they are born with long tails.. it is common for the owner to have the tail short...

And if removing that foreskin is proven, statistically, to offer many lifetime benefits for the person and for others?

Just because it is "natural" and found on everyone, doesn't automatically mean it is best, or "most fit" for us. We are already working to enhance human physical abilities and mental capabilities, rather than just accept what we are born with because it is "natural"

That is the thing about humans. We CAN improve ourselves from what nature and evolution have given us.

If cutting their tails improved the health of Rotweillers. I'd be all for it, but i am opposed to the operation because it is based on human perceptions of taste and beauty.

Yes my earlier post about ugliness was a joke. Although, personally, I find "cleanskins" much more aesthetic, it is not a good enough rational reason to circumscise a child.

[Beckys_Mom]

And if removing that foreskin is proven, statistically, to offer many lifetime benefits for the person and for others?

Just because it is "natural" and found on everyone, doesn't automatically mean it is best, or "most fit" for us. We are already working to enhance human physical abilities and mental capabilities, rather than just accept what we are born with because it is "natural"

That is the thing about humans. We CAN improve ourselves from what nature and evolution have given us.

Why are you against infant boys having the chop?

[ShaoTingSun]

Hi all. . .my thoughts on this subject are as follows. If one was truly worried about the welfare of these children wouldn't the fire in this debate be better served towards something along the lines of stopping bullying? As far as I'm concerned the only people who benefit from bringing religion into this argument are the ones against it calling it an ancient barbaric practice. No one wishes to be told how to raise their child and if you truly want to end this practice you must attack the competency of doctors and parents alike. That will never happen so I suggest taking up a fight that will have lasting effects on these children.

[Mr Walker]

Why are you against infant boys having the chop?

Im not against it.

I take the advice of the australian medical association. A parent should get medical advice and act in the interest of the child. personally i know circumscision of a young child leaves no trace, mentally. I never even knew i was circumscised until i was over 20. Every young boy /man i saw naked in showers etc looked the same as me, becuase well over 90% of baby boys were circumscised in Australia (for purely medical reasons) in the period when i was born.

I dont think circumscision should be performed just for religious reasons but i have read many compelling reasons why it is medically healthy for a male to be circumscised and very few, if any, medical dangers or long term disadvantages. Because it worked very well for me, i would have no personal opposition to a son of mine being circumsacised soon after birth.

I dont respond well to emotional, belief -driven arguments either.

Some people will not vaccinate their children. I think they should be prosecuted and any govt benefis removed from them until they do. They kill many young babies because of their mistaken belief driven atitudes to vaccination. (Because children too young to be vaccinated die from diseases passed on by older children whose parents refused to vaccinate them.)

[Karlis]

Anti-Circumcision Group Publishes "Anti-Semitic" Comic

The San Francisco group attempting to make infant circumcision a misdemeanor crime has published a comic strip the ADL and others are calling anti-Semitic. Titled "Foreskin Man," the comic pits a blond hair, blue eyed superhero (Foreskin Man) against characters such as "Dr. Mutilator," "Mohel Man" and a gun-wielding Orthodox Jewish man named Jorah. The comic book was created by Matthew Hess, the president of the Male Genital Mutilation Bill group and one of the leaders of the "intactivists," the anti-circumcision group whose measure will be on the November ballot. ... If passed the ballot would make circumcisions a misdemeanor punishable by a $1,000 fine and up to one year in prison in San Francisco.

You can view a list of all the characters on the website for "Foreskin Man," though be forewarned that the site is very slow to load. Clicking on an image will bring you to a brief bio for each character, such as this one for Monster Mohel:

Source

[Wickian]

Im not against it.

I take the advice of the australian medical association. A parent should get medical advice and act in the interest of the child. personally i know circumscision of a young child leaves no trace, mentally. I never even knew i was circumscised until i was over 20. Every young boy /man i saw naked in showers etc looked the same as me, becuase well over 90% of baby boys were circumscised in Australia (for purely medical reasons) in the period when i was born.

I dont think circumscision should be performed just for religious reasons but i have read many compelling reasons why it is medically healthy for a male to be circumscised and very few, if any, medical dangers or long term disadvantages. Because it worked very well for me, i would have no personal opposition to a son of mine being circumsacised soon after birth.

I dont respond well to emotional, belief -driven arguments either.

Some people will not vaccinate their children. I think they should be prosecuted and any govt benefis removed from them until they do. They kill many young babies because of their mistaken belief driven atitudes to vaccination. (Because children too young to be vaccinated die from diseases passed on by older children whose parents refused to vaccinate them.)

I don't understand how it can be so widely supported in non-religious terms myself. It serves no logical purpose outside of aesthetics and lowers sensitivity.

It makes about as much sense as removing your fingernails and toenails because studies show a complete absence in-grown nails and dirt when they're removed, and it looks aesthetically pleasing too!