G.Cooper encountered man-made flying saucers

[bee]

.

I've met Walter Cronkite..lol..I've sat round a campfire under the stars outside a USAF military base in the UK, with him.

Many years ago.

.

Edited November 3, 2012 by bee

[TheMacGuffin]

How on earth do you draw that conclusion? I'm afraid that you seem to be putting words in people's mouths now, much in fact as McGuf has been doing a lot lately. How do you ever read that into what i said there?

Clark McClelland was a Spacecraft Operator (ScO) which is probably why he says he's an astronaut.

"When space shuttle astronauts are living and working in Earth orbit, their mission -- and, ultimately, their lives -- depend on all the shuttle orbiter's systems and controls working exactly as expected.

From the time a shuttle lands after a mission until it launches on its next spaceflight, a small group of specially certified United Space Alliance aerospace technicians called spacecraft operators act as the eyes, ears and hands of the test team at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Their workspace is the orbiter crew module, the part of the shuttle where astronauts live and work in space. They focus heavily on the cockpit -- the nerve center of the space shuttle orbiter.

"The astronauts have a good job. They make it look easy," says Bill Powers, a spacecraft operator (SCO) since 1985. "Our job is just to make sure when they get the vehicle, there aren't any surprises."

Spacecraft operators are an integral part of the processing and test teams that ensure the shuttle is ready to fly.

Any time the orbiter is powered up -- meaning that its systems are on -- spacecraft operators are on duty.

"What SCOs do is take information from Engineering and the test conductor, and they do what the astronauts do on orbit," explains Chris Meinert. He's worked on the space shuttle since 1981, and became certified as a spacecraft operator in 1984.

Orbiter systems can be controlled in three ways. In "command," a ground controller can send a command through the shuttle's S-band antenna and, for example, turn on a fan or pump while the astronauts are asleep. "Copper path" involves a crew member physically throwing a switch in the cockpit to accomplish a task. Finally, the Launch Processing System, or LPS, is the ground command in which a signal from the Launch Control Center (LCC) travels down a wire to the launch pad.

Spacecraft operators take part in testing all three methods.

"In the LCC, you've got 15 or 20 different consoles, with many feet or yards separating them. But in the cockpit, you can see several different systems, all within arm's reach," says Meinert. "If there's something going on, we can give a report pretty quick as to what's the initial system that's either good or bad, and how the other systems are reacting to it."

More than 2,000 switches, displays and controls fill almost every surface of the flight deck, beginning with the center console in front of the commander's and pilot's seats and spreading out across the ceiling and walls. All this instrumentation is labeled and grouped into panels according to system. In order to operate the spacecraft, it's critically important to know its systems and how they interact."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCoQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasa.gov%2Fmission_pages%2Fshuttle%2Fflyout%2Fsc_operators.html&ei=etmUUK7EOo6o8gT_rYDgDA&usg=AFQjCNESCOOM_DThXMWSuRZC7mZE85ZIiw&sig2=SrymO_09LXYFi4xn_4kzOA

[Space Commander Travis]

Clark McClelland was a Spacecraft Operator (ScO) which is probably why he says he's an astronaut.

http://www.google.co...9LXYFi4xn_4kzOA

Ground control, yes, not in a flying capacity.

Anyway, all that aside, why is it so important to cling on to the word "Astronaut"? Does that in itself give him that much extra credibility? If he was never actually in space, why does his testimony, whatever it may have been now, it was so long ago that I've forgotten, carry so much weight? if the fact was that he was never in Space, why should he know so much more about it than anyone else?

[bee]

.

the subject of lying comes up a lot on forums like this...

either about people being discussed OR people making posts...

just had a quick look to see if lying had any physiological effects....

and just as I suspected...lying is NOT good for the health

Lying Less Linked to Better Health, New Research Finds

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2012/08/lying-less.aspx

Telling the truth when tempted to lie can significantly improve a person’s mental and physical health, according to a “Science of Honesty” study presented at the American Psychological Association’s 120^th Annual Convention.

the saying 'honesty is the best policy' appears to hold sway...

.

[Space Commander Travis]

Not of that is anywhere near answering the question, is it? It may well be good for one's health, but does that make Mr. McC any more qualified to talk about what Astronauts may have seen, if he wasn't one himself?

Edited November 3, 2012 by 747400

[JimOberg]

Now that we are through all this nonsense, I think I can solve the big "mystery" of why McClelland left NASA in 1992.

....., but he did start working at NASA in 1958.

http://www.google.co...jueMLAb9XHXy-Xw

Take care to make the distinction -- he did start working at Cape Canaveral in 1958, no dispute. Over the years he worked for variious commercial contractors for the DoD and for NASA. Working as a direct civil service NASA position -- less clear, until his SCO assignment, whbich didn't end well.

The reason this distinction is important lies with his later fabrication of a bogus 'Shuttle Fleet' business card that he used long AFTER being rejected for the SCO position.

Another important reason deals with the pension question. Many aerospace workers -- including me -- support projects for various corporations but don't stay long enough to get 'vested'. Pension plans weren't 'portable' until recent years, company to company.

When you're young and enthusiastic, you don't think about such things. But many aerospace workers wound up with minimal pensions after 30-40 years of employment at a succession of different aerospace firrms. I'm one of them, too.

So it's very unlikely McClelland had enough federal service years for a 'NASA pension', But UFOs probably have nothing to do with it.

[JimOberg]

McClelland claimed to have had a secret conversation with Wernher von Braun about his knowledge of UFOs.

But here's von Braun's published account of his skepticism.

Here is an extract from Wernher von Braun's book "First Men to

the Moon" published by Holt, Rinehart and Winston of Canada in

1958:

"Question: What is your opinion on U.F.Os?"

"Answer: There is a rational and rather straight-forward

explanation for the great majority of sightings of unidentified

flying objects or 'flying saucers', as they are more familiarly

called. During the last ten years, official U.S. investigators

have tabulated about six thousand sightings. They could account

for all but two per cent as belonging to any of the following

categories: High-flying balloons of various kinds; High flying

aircraft illuminated by the sun after the sun had set on the

ground; Nightly 'Fata Morgana' type reflections in the

atmosphere of distant light sources on the ground; artificial

satellites of U.S. or Soviet origin; Meteorites and fireballs;

birds; the planets Venus or Jupiter; searchlights illuminating

cloud layers, Hoaxes perpetrated by pranksters.

Even the most ardent believers in flying objects of extra-

terrestrial origin will usually concede that most reported

'sightings' can be traced back to one of these sources. But it

is that unnacounted two per cent that makes enthusiasts cling

tenaciously to their conviction.

I cannot account for the mysterious two percent, either. But a

lifetime spent with testing of guided missiles has taught me to

be extremely careful with eye-witness accounts on rocket firings

running into some in-flight trouble. Of three experienced

observers questioned after a typical mishap, one swore that he

clearly saw a part coming off before the rocket faltered; a

second hotly denied this but claimed that the missile oscillated

violently before it veered off the course; while the third

trained observer saw neither a part coming off, nor an

oscillation, nor anything veering off course but insisted that

the rocket was flying perfectly steadily until it was abruptly

ripped apart by an internal explosion.

Such contradictions in the eyewitness accounts of old rocket

men are by no means an exception; we are almost invariably

confronted with this situation. Yet we are dealing here with

experienced observers who not only had seen many firings, but

who had the great advantage of being mentally prepared for the

imminent test.

For this reason I am highly skeptical about the objective of

any 'sighting' report of a fleeting, mysterious object in the

sky submitted by an equally surprised and unexperienced

observer. And those unnaccounted two per cent of U.F.O.'s

absolutely fail to raise my blood pressure. To me, ninety-eight

per cent is a might good batting average. I wish we could

account for ninety-eight per cent of what we observe in many

other fields of human endeavour! Yet, ever since the Middle Ages

it has not been customary for science to call on ghosts and

witches - or little green men from Mars - whenever we are

confronted with a phenomenon for which we do not have a

satisfactory answer.

To those who, either through personal observation or through

hearsay based on other people's accounts, still insist that

objects of extra-terrestrial origin are roaming through our

atmosphere, I can only say that I have never seen such an object

and cannot believe in their existence until I do."

[JimOberg]

Now, here's an account of original research trying to track down the source of McClelland's story about his private conversation with von Braun:

How Credible Are Clark McClelland’s „Space UFO“ Stories?

James Oberg // June 28, 2004

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=104263&view=findpost&p=1869735

Clark McClelland is a retired veteran of space projects at Cape Canaveral, and has published many accounts of UFOs associated with space events (See “The TRUE X-Files“, at http://www.stargate-chronicles.com). I have concluded that without independent corroboration, no statement by McClelland on its own is evidence for any UFO-type event.

One very instructive example involves McClelland’s account of a personal conversation about UFOs that he had with Wernher von Braun (http://216.145.94.108/stargate-chronicles/chasingjuno.html).

Here is what McClelland CLAIMS von Braun told him directly: "He looked at me with a bit of surprise, and said, "Young man, yes we had such an encounter with a power that appears advanced beyond ours here. Stronger than we have assumed and unknown to us where their base is located.

More: “I cannot say much more other than we are entering into a closer contact with these unknown powers and perhaps within a short time, a few months or so of time, we will be capable of saying more."

McClelland continued: “I must have had my lower jaw hit the ground when I heard these statements. I shook his hand and returned to my assignments. Later, I would learn that he made a similar statement while visiting his homeland of Germany. I personally withheld this astounding disclosure for many years due to my utmost respect for this pioneer of space travel."

Now, these comments attributed to von Braun look very similar to words from Tim Good's book, ’Above Top Secret’: "We find ourselves faced by powers which are far stronger than we had hitherto assumed, and whose base is at present unknown to us. More I cannot say at present. We are now engaged in entering into closer contact with those powers, and in six or nine months time it may be possible to speak with some precision on the matter."

There are several hypotheses to account for the striking simularities in these two passages. First, of course, it’s possible that von Braun independently relayed both accounts, one to the East German newspaper cited in Good’s book and the other face-to-face to McClelland. Second, McClelland could have read Good’s book and then later recounted the phrase to others as if he had been the direct recipient in an imagined conversation with von Braun. Third, both statements could be imaginary and their similarities are coincidental, or are based on some no-longer-available common source.

When asked, McClelland (personal email) is adament that he received this information directly from the mouth of von Braun. Since von Braun died in 1972 and there are no other known witnesses to the conversation, the only evidence for this claim is McClelland himself.

The original footnote from 1959 can be investigated, but with great difficulty. The book’s author, Tom Good (personal communication), explains that he did not see the source, but used an English-language source (not specified) that cited the original German source. This is a careless use of footnotes.

In any case, I asked several German associates of mine in space history research to see what they could find out. Mr. Tasillo Roemisch of ‚SPACE SERVICE INTL.’ in Mittweida spent “a whole day“ to track it down in the Deutsche Buecherei at Leipzig City, and reported the results.

The magazine NEUES EUROPA stopped publishing in the late 1960s. Its descriptive blurb reads: “Das führende Weltblatt fuer alle Fragen der kommenden Entwicklung“ or “The leading World Magazine for all questions of the coming development“. It was published by Verlag August Kraemer GmbH, Stuttgart, and all issues each had only 8 pages.

Roemisch checked all 48 issues of the years 1959 and 1960 and found out that they were supporting a Karl Michalek who lived in Santiago de Chile that time and who claimed to be the “President of the Coming World Republik Earth“. He was sure that the Venusian ET’s were going to land in Berlin soon. Other favorable articles appeared about Adamski and Kazantsev.

Wernher von Braun was only mentioned once, in issue no. 3 (Febr. 01, 1959), when they wrote that “Prof. Oberth, the collegue of the German- American Wernher von Braun... believes in the existence of extraterrestials living in the star constallation Tau- Zeit - the Uranides“.

The article explicitly cited (issue no. 1, January 01, 1959, page 2) doesn’t mention von Braun. Its headline is: „Sensationelle Zeichen aus dem Weltraum (sensational signs from outer space)“, and the opening blurb is „Interplanetarische Kräfte, welche die irdischen Mond- Raketen aus ihrer Bahn lenken“ (interplanetary forces which direct terrestial moon rockets out of track), and then „Russische und amerikanische Fern- Raketen, die ihre Ziele nicht erreichen - Demonstration der Venus- Kräfte?“ (Russian and American rockets which don’t reach their goals - demonstration of the Venusian forces?).

The article itself is short, and is datelined Saturday Dec 06, 1958. „Fourth attempt of the USA moonrocket failed. Juno 2 was hindered at an altitude of 100,000 km to fly higher and came back.“ The text states: „Amerikanische Sachverständige betonen, dass es im Weltall Kräfte gibt, welche die irdischen Raketen aus ihren vorberechneten Bahnen ablenken, ihre Fluggeschwindigkeit reduzieren und sie wieder in die Lufthülle der Erde zurückdirigieren.“

(American specialists emphasize that there are forces in outer space to mislead terrestial rockets out of their calculated tracks to reduce their speed and to send them back to the airbelt of the Earth). The author was Albert Laurent, and he claimed the Russian and Indian researchers said about the same.

To return to the possible explanations of how McClelland’s story of direct von Braun testimony can correspond to Good’s book account, we can eliminate several hypotheses. Since it has now been demonstrated that the account in Good’s book is garbled (the unjustified attribution of the original magazine story to von Braun), and that the original von Braun story was itself nonsense, there is no way for the existence of two independent versions of the same story originating from von Braun. We are compelled to conclude that the McClelland story can resemble the Good story only by virtue of it being derived from it.

Until we can determine how this happened – confusion, memory malfunction, confabulation, deliberate plagiarism, or whatever – any story of similar origin (that is, any story depending solely on the veracity of uncorroborated allegations) from Clark McClelland must be considered unworthy of credence.

[JimOberg]

After all, "ScO" means Spacecraft Operator at NASA, so maybe it's all right for McClelland to call himself an astronaut.

Well, maybe partly...

How about we call him a 'half-astronaut'??

[JimOberg]

Yeah go away.

Here's Clark McClelland with JFK. I bet you and Bad never got to shake hands with a President.

That's Wally Schirra with JFK.

Are you saying McClelland is that blip on the gantry in the background, 100 yards away, third row, fifth from left?

[JimOberg]

this link shows mcclelland's bogus 'business card'

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KUkrB3-HA7g/TYjZu2juJVI/AAAAAAAAD1A/sDbXHWg_i90/s400/mcclelland_.jpg

note he calls himself a 'ground test astronaut' but

uses a p.o. box in orlando as his 'office' address

this is fraud, and very sad.

if you really believe he is truthful,

why aren't you sending him money?

[synchronomy]

Wrong again, Boon, the author of that article was named Steve Beckow.

You didn't even notice THAT!

I'm a bit confused.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, I just got out of bed to find the usual 3-4 pages of posts to catch up on.

The article was posted by Steve Beckow, but the authors credit says:

by Clark C. McClelland, former ScO, U.S. Space Shuttle Fleet, KSC, Florida 1958 to 1992

The Canadian, Oct. 29, 2010, http://bit.ly/c9fBWd

http://the2012scenar...rials-are-here/

The only statements about him losing his pension are comments made by the poster. I find sites like this often have a hidden agenda. Usually subjects such as starseeds, lightworkers, NESARA, ascension, and the Golden Age are followed up by a request for money.

Edited November 3, 2012 by synchronomy

[booNyzarC]

I'm a bit confused.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, I just got out of bed to find the usual 3-4 pages of posts to catch up on.

The article was posted by Steve Beckow, but the authors credit says:

by Clark C. McClelland, former ScO, U.S. Space Shuttle Fleet, KSC, Florida 1958 to 1992

The Canadian, Oct. 29, 2010, http://bit.ly/c9fBWd

http://the2012scenar...rials-are-here/

The only statements about him losing his pension are comments made by the poster. I find sites like this often have a hidden agenda. Usually subjects such as starseeds, lightworkers, NESARA, ascension, and the Golden Age are followed up by a request for money.

No, you're right. Plus at the bottom it says:

About the author:

Clark C. McClelland, former ScO, Space Shuttle Fleet, KSC, Florida 1958 to 1992. Former Director, NICAP Unit-3 at Cape Canaveral and KSC, former MUFON Assistant Florida State Director, and former Director, Kennedy Space Center MUFON Unit, KSC.

I was just about to respond to that post myself, but decided to read through the thread to see if anyone else had already addressed this. Very perceptive of you to pick up on that detail Synch, and one must wonder why it slipped past TheMacGuffin.

[booNyzarC]

Yeah go away.

Here's Clark McClelland with JFK. I bet you and Bad never got to shake hands with a President.

The long list of people he was supposedly close friends with and/or met reminds me of someone else.

[booNyzarC]

McClelland claimed to have had a secret conversation with Wernher von Braun about his knowledge of UFOs.

But here's von Braun's published account of his skepticism.

Here is an extract from Wernher von Braun's book "First Men to

the Moon" published by Holt, Rinehart and Winston of Canada in

1958:

*snip*

Thank you for that Jim. I'd never read it before, and after so many people have dropped Wernher von Braun's name in support of UFOlogy, Disclosure, and/or some kind of "ET Reality" I'd say this gives an extremely healthy perspective to such claims.

Cheers.

[TheMacGuffin]

No, you're right. Plus at the bottom it says:

I was just about to respond to that post myself, but decided to read through the thread to see if anyone else had already addressed this. Very perceptive of you to pick up on that detail Synch, and one must wonder why it slipped past TheMacGuffin.

I thought you were in bed.

[TheMacGuffin]

The long list of people he was supposedly close friends with and/or met reminds me of someone else.

You're tired, go back to bed.

[Space Commander Travis]

You're tired, go back to bed.

Have you ever heard the phrase "if you don't really have anything very useful to add, there is no law that says that you actually have to say anything"?

[TheMacGuffin]

Have you ever heard the phrase "if you don't really have anything very useful to add, there is no law that says that you actually have to say anything"?

You're in no position to say that to anybody.

[JimOberg]

mcg, is that mcclelland with jfk, in the photo you posted, or wally schirra? please respond constructively.

[TheMacGuffin]

That's Wally Schirra with JFK.

Are you saying McClelland is that blip on the gantry in the background, 100 yards away, third row, fifth from left?

You're right, McClelland does say that it's Wally Schirra with Kennedy, but I got confused because he has that picture right by the part where he talks about meeting JFK.

"Here's an exact copy of the Presidential Emblem I had given to me by President John F. Kennedy. He was at Cape Canaveral on November 16th, 1963 on a tour to be briefed by Astronaut Wally Shirra. Wally brought him to the Gemini-Titan II Launch Pad 19 where one was being processed for a launch.

My office was in the blockhouse at this pad. I met him there and commented to him about being careful when he arrived in Texas. He noticed I had an Irish name then he reached into his pocket, grasped my hand in a shake, and he placed it (emblem) in my hand. He smiled and thanked me for my concern. He said, it will be Ok, Mac."

http://www.ufoconspiracy.com/news/jfk_patch_clark63.htm

[badeskov]

Ground control, yes, not in a flying capacity.

Anyway, all that aside, why is it so important to cling on to the word "Astronaut"? Does that in itself give him that much extra credibility? If he was never actually in space, why does his testimony, whatever it may have been now, it was so long ago that I've forgotten, carry so much weight? if the fact was that he was never in Space, why should he know so much more about it than anyone else?

Yeah, I don't get this one either to be honest. He was never an astronaut, he never flew in space. So why the insistence on this title? One would think that his position as it was should let enough credence to his words. Alas not.

The fact that such insistence is required merely emphasizes the lack of credence Mr. McClelland has built for himself.

Cheers,

Badeskov

[badeskov]

You're in no position to say that to anybody.

But he most assuredly is.

Cheers,

Badeskov

[TheMacGuffin]

Ground control, yes, not in a flying capacity.

Anyway, all that aside, why is it so important to cling on to the word "Astronaut"? Does that in itself give him that much extra credibility? If he was never actually in space, why does his testimony, whatever it may have been now, it was so long ago that I've forgotten, carry so much weight? if the fact was that he was never in Space, why should he know so much more about it than anyone else?

McClelland was more of an astronaut than you'll ever be, chrome dome.

[hortie]

Great thread. I would like to believe cooper, I believe he is a great hero. I do believe he's seen amazing things. However what I have found with cooper(I have not read this book mentioned, I will) is he claimed to have seen ufo's on at least two occasions.

The ones I seen him talk about are when he was flying at a very high altitude and there were many ufo's flying above him at which humans could not have built them. The other was when they were filming and testing new aircraft, where he claimed the saucer flew overhead, landed and took off, again at a rate of speed he'd never seen before.... This was apparently filmed.

This new info of him seeing one and testing one was not mentioned before, and wasn't mentioned in his interviews I seen, leading me to wonder if someone is using his name to tell more tales. Or is he possibly exaggerating?