G.Cooper encountered man-made flying saucers

[Space Commander Travis]

McClelland was more of an astronaut than you'll ever be, chrome dome.

That argument makes no sense at all, since he wasn't. one might as well say he was more of a president of the USA, or more of a Marxist revolutionary, since so far as I know he was neither of those things either. I am afraid that the stress of recent times really does seem to be getting to you, since your arguments are making less and less and less sense as they go along.

[booNyzarC]

McClelland was more of an astronaut than you'll ever be, chrome dome.

Well at least you aren't being childish anymore...

[zoser]

This new info of him seeing one and testing one was not mentioned before, and wasn't mentioned in his interviews I seen, leading me to wonder if someone is using his name to tell more tales. Or is he possibly exaggerating?

Remember he was thoroughly trained to do exactly the opposite. Deliberate deception? To what end?

[badeskov]

McClelland was more of an astronaut than you'll ever be, chrome dome.

What a strange reply. Why not reply to the substance of 747's post, I.e. the question of why insisting on that astronaut label instead of yet another personal dig?

Cheers,

Badeskov

[TheMacGuffin]

Dr. Carol Rosin, who was von Braun's assistant from 1974 until his death from cancer in 1977, had this to say:

"Dr. Carol Rosin

first met Dr. Wernher von Braun in February of 1974. It was at this time, shortly before his death in 1977, that von Braun confided to Dr. Rosin the details of this secret space agenda.

Inviting her into his office, Von Braun stunned Dr. Rosin by describing this plan, point for point, as well as describing in detail exactly where it was all leading: planetary control under an oppressive One World Government.

According to Dr. Rosin, ([media=]

[/media]) von Braun then gave her one supreme assignment to thwart this plan: to stop the weaponization of space. Failure to do so would lead to calamity for the human race as a secretive trans-national power, already in existence, would move to permanently take control of this planet thru a hoaxed alien invasionfrom outer space.

According to von Braun, space based weapons, later known as the “Star Wars” program, were to be publicly promoted as our space “shield” against the evil Russians. Then they would be promoted as our defense against terrorists from Third World countries (‘rogue’ nations or ‘nations of concern’). Then their necessity would be justified as protection against asteroids and meteors, and the “last card,” the final justification according to von Braun, would be their installation in orbit against an extraterrestrial threat from outer space.

Von Braun told Dr. Rosin that she would begin to notice a certain “spin” on the news, which would illustrate the need to build space-based weaponry because our enemies “might” have these weapons, so our intelligence community would proceed on the assumption that they DO have these weapons. As we now know, this is exactly how the Star Wars program transpired.

According to Wernher von Braun, all of these publicly announced threats were lies. Von Braun cited the reality of nuclear suitcase bombs being available even then, as well as chemical, viral, bacterial and biological terror weapons against which these space based weapons would be useless.

More importantly, von Braun told Dr. Rosin in 1974 that we already had the technology to build anti gravity vehicles and entire transportation systems which did not require so-called ‘fossil’ fuels but instead used “beams” of energy, thereby eliminating all pollution from these sources permanently. Perhaps Dr. von Braun had seen anti gravity vehicles with his own eyes in Germany before the end of the war, as wel l as their continued development at other secret technology sites afterwards.

Von Braun further told Dr. Rosin that we had the ability to transform our “war” based military/industrial complex into a space and energy industry for the benefit of all of humanity, and that we had the capability of building entirely nonpolluting transportation technologies using this same limitless energy, while ending the arms race without dislocating the jobs associated with it. Mankind could transition to a new industrial paradigm and usher in an era of peace, plenty and prosperity for everyone on Earth."

http://revolutionizi...ion-from-space/

Edited November 3, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[TheMacGuffin]

That argument makes no sense at all, since he wasn't. one might as well say he was more of a president of the USA, or more of a Marxist revolutionary, since so far as I know he was neither of those things either. I am afraid that the stress of recent times really does seem to be getting to you, since your arguments are making less and less and less sense as they go along.

None of you have really disproved the point that a Spacecraft Operator (ScO) is entitled to be called an "astronaut". None of you would even be hired by NASA as Paper Airplane Operators either.

Edited November 3, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[TheMacGuffin]

Do I think that von Braun knew a lot more about ETs and UFOs than he ever let on in public? Sure he did, just like his mentor Oberth.

I recall that one time someone interviewed his son who confirmed all kinds of interesting details that von Braun hinted at from time to time, such as how NASA picked up a 20-second alien transmission during the first moon landing.

I have been looking for more information about that interview for a long time.

[TheMacGuffin]

And here's Clark McClelland standing with von Braun in an autographed picture.

[TheMacGuffin]

Here is what McClelland said about his discussions with Oberth and von Braun:

"When I arrived at Cape Canaveral in 1958, I began investigating any stories I heard regarding UFOs. Lonesome George, strange crafts seen following our early launch of Juno, Jupiter, etc. I was also in the ONI unit at PAFB and heard some UFO events through that unit. In fact, I became their expert.

I immediately became friends with many veterans of our rocket research at White Sands Missile Range who would eventually join NASA a few years later. As we discussed my many years involved in the study of ET's and UFOs, they began to trust in me. I was a NICAP member and was beginning to establish what would become NICAP UNIT-3 at the Cape.

You may recall sending me a letter asking that I share whatever I learned with you. My security clearance was high and being new with our space program, I was not going to chance losing it for anyone. So I did not share my information, other than some with NICAP and Keyhoe. Dr. J. Allen Hynek also ask me to share with him. I did not. I met him at KSC.

These ABMA men and woman were working at White Sands and were associated with the German Rocket Scientists that came to the USA during Operation Paper Clip. Many were deeply involved, technically with the launch of captured V-2 Vikings, etc. They spoke of many UFO overflights in their area being tracked by radar, the monkey experiments, high altitude balloon releases, etc.

I was told of the crash and retrieval of a strange, what appeared to be alien object not far from Roswell and several alien bodies were recovered, one was reported to be still alive. It very much excited me as you can imagine. I have all the details of this in my book(s). They also disclosed the names of those German scientists and well known US Military and Scientific personnel that were at the crash site. So, I can claim to have known about the Roswell Crash since 1958. Long before your book and others were published.

Why did I not disclose my knowledge of this astounding event to NICAP, APRO, etc? BECAUSE, I had a HIGH security clearance and a position at the Cape and did not want to impact my job and my ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) status. You would have done the same, I am certain. Later, it caught up with me and my life has been drastically changed, as I am sure you are ALL aware.

Dr. Wernher von Braun and I met at Cocoa Beach on July 15, 1969 for a MFA (Manned Flight Awareness) pre-launch awards ceremony prior to the Apollo 11 launch the next morning. He and I discussed the launch, astronomy and I gained enough courage to ask him about the reported crash near Roswell. He was surprised to hear me mention Roswell. He then verified what I had heard about eleven years earlier at the Cape from his ABMA associates at KSC, concerning a crashed craft and aliens. I also spoke with Dr. Hermann Oberth and his wife, Tilly, the same night. We were all at Complex 39 the next AM with Senator Barry Goldwater, etc., and watched the historic mission to land on the moon."

http://www.google.co...wALMyiET6_1YIGg

Edited November 3, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[TheMacGuffin]

By the way, if McClelland already had a high security clearance even in the 1950s and 1960s, then why all this talk about how he suddenly failed to obtain one in 1992?

That always sounded bogus to me, since he had been working on various classified projects for years, then all of a sudden he can't get clearance to work on the Space Shuttle? There's something very phony about that.

[synchronomy]

Dr. Carol Rosin, who was von Braun's assistant from 1974 until his death from cancer in 1977, had this to say:

"Dr. Carol Rosin

first met Dr. Wernher von Braun in February of 1974. It was at this time, shortly before his death in 1977, that von Braun confided to Dr. Rosin the details of this secret space agenda.

Inviting her into his office, Von Braun stunned Dr. Rosin by describing this plan, point for point, as well as describing in detail exactly where it was all leading: planetary control under an oppressive One World Government.

According to Dr. Rosin, ([media=]

[/media]) von Braun then gave her one supreme assignment to thwart this plan: to stop the weaponization of space. Failure to do so would lead to calamity for the human race as a secretive trans-national power, already in existence, would move to permanently take control of this planet thru a hoaxed alien invasionfrom outer space.

According to von Braun, space based weapons, later known as the “Star Wars” program, were to be publicly promoted as our space “shield” against the evil Russians. Then they would be promoted as our defense against terrorists from Third World countries (‘rogue’ nations or ‘nations of concern’). Then their necessity would be justified as protection against asteroids and meteors, and the “last card,” the final justification according to von Braun, would be their installation in orbit against an extraterrestrial threat from outer space.

Von Braun told Dr. Rosin that she would begin to notice a certain “spin” on the news, which would illustrate the need to build space-based weaponry because our enemies “might” have these weapons, so our intelligence community would proceed on the assumption that they DO have these weapons. As we now know, this is exactly how the Star Wars program transpired.

According to Wernher von Braun, all of these publicly announced threats were lies. Von Braun cited the reality of nuclear suitcase bombs being available even then, as well as chemical, viral, bacterial and biological terror weapons against which these space based weapons would be useless.

More importantly, von Braun told Dr. Rosin in 1974 that we already had the technology to build anti gravity vehicles and entire transportation systems which did not require so-called ‘fossil’ fuels but instead used “beams” of energy, thereby eliminating all pollution from these sources permanently. Perhaps Dr. von Braun had seen anti gravity vehicles with his own eyes in Germany before the end of the war, as wel l as their continued development at other secret technology sites afterwards.

Von Braun further told Dr. Rosin that we had the ability to transform our “war” based military/industrial complex into a space and energy industry for the benefit of all of humanity, and that we had the capability of building entirely nonpolluting transportation technologies using this same limitless energy, while ending the arms race without dislocating the jobs associated with it. Mankind could transition to a new industrial paradigm and usher in an era of peace, plenty and prosperity for everyone on Earth."

http://revolutionizi...ion-from-space/

I have a great deal of respect for the initiatives of Carol Rosin.

She has a website dedicated to banning the weaponization of space. Dr. Edgar Mitchell et al are associates and co-authors of the proposed treaty project.

[TheMacGuffin]

I have a great deal of respect for the initiatives of Carol Rosin.

She has a website dedicated to banning the weaponization of space. Dr. Edgar Mitchell et al are associates and co-authors of the proposed treaty project.

They don't think the ETs are hostile, and in fact Oberth said that we were being "helped" by them.

The reality is more complex given the variety of ET groups that are here and their different agendas, some of which are not friendly. Of course, there have been plenty of people since the 1940s and 1950s who thought that defensive measures against them were necessary. Supposedly President Truman authorized the first project to develop space-based defenses against hostile ETs in 1947 and he wanted them to come up with something within five years. Some people call this the "Adam and Eve" projects, which also involved attempts to make contact with the ETs to find out where they were from and what they wanted.

Eisenhower seemed to treat UFOs and ETs as a problem for Air Defense Command as well, but Truman also issued shoot-down orders in 1947 and 1952. This is the era in which we keep getting all these spectacular stories of UFO chases and jets sometimes being knocked down or disintegrated by them. At they very least they were capable of considerable retaliation.

I did see a quote from von Braun once where he mentioned that the ETs sometimes interfered with missiles and the space program, and that he had been aware of them going back to the early days at White Sands in 1946-47. Not only UFOs that crashed, but at least one that was observed coming in for a landing. He also said that there were trying to communicate with them, to set up some kind of contact if that was possible.

[TheMacGuffin]

Of course, I am not naive about military spending, since big bucks are always riding on that as well as many jobs and careers, so naturally it's always in someone's interest to magnify certain "threats" and make them appear ten feet tall. Back in the Cold War days whenever the economy was in recession and needed a boost then someone always had the bright idea of making the Soviet Threat seem even a little more threatening just so they could spend some more and give the economy a boost.

I'm very familiar with such fun and games. I don't like war. I've seen war and it's horrible beyond imagination, just a lot of death and destruction and madness. The most anyone could say about it is that it might be a necessary evil at times, but it is always an evil.

If there is an ET Threat, however, it is one that has never been publicly acknowledged. Von Braun seemed very disinclined to consider ET a great threat and also seemed to doubt that any weapons we developed would really be effective against a more advanced civilization like that. He preferred to talk rather than shoot, at least until they could determine who these beings really were and what their purpose was.

As I said, though, I have heard that at least one group was VERY hostile and that there had been confrontations going back to the 1940s.

[TheMacGuffin]

I once met a couple of bankers in Eastern Europe, two old Communist Party hacks who transformed themselves into capitalist hacks after 1989, but were basically just a front for a lot of dirty money coming in from Russia, Italy and God knows where else--Mob money, dope money, you name it.

Anyway, these guys said to me that the most profitable investments by far were in two areas: weapons and illegal drugs. By that they meant profits of 1,000% or more, which is a lot more than you can get investing in a textile mill.

They were a couple of scumbags, but I had no reason to doubt their analysis. In light of all the events that have occurred in the last few years how could anyone doubt it?

I should add that Robert Kennedy had this figured out long before most people, that a lot of things going on in the world were basically controlled by the Mafia and organized crime, whatever term you want to use. Even back then they had all these billions of dollars in dirty money that had to go somewhere and nowadays it's bigger than ever.

I have seen plenty of countries that are basically treated as private piggy banks by the gangster families that run them.

Edited November 3, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[synchronomy]

They don't think the ETs are hostile, and in fact Oberth said that we were being "helped" by them.

The reality is more complex given the variety of ET groups that are here and their different agendas, some of which are not friendly. Of course, there have been plenty of people since the 1940s and 1950s who thought that defensive measures against them were necessary. Supposedly President Truman authorized the first project to develop space-based defenses against hostile ETs in 1947 and he wanted them to come up with something within five years. Some people call this the "Adam and Eve" projects, which also involved attempts to make contact with the ETs to find out where they were from and what they wanted.

Eisenhower seemed to treat UFOs and ETs as a problem for Air Defense Command as well, but Truman also issued shoot-down orders in 1947 and 1952. This is the era in which we keep getting all these spectacular stories of UFO chases and jets sometimes being knocked down or disintegrated by them. At they very least they were capable of considerable retaliation.

I did see a quote from von Braun once where he mentioned that the ETs sometimes interfered with missiles and the space program, and that he had been aware of them going back to the early days at White Sands in 1946-47. Not only UFOs that crashed, but at least one that was observed coming in for a landing. He also said that there were trying to communicate with them, to set up some kind of contact if that was possible.

When you look at the means and methods used by all governments of psychological control over us, any attempted contact by ET's, whether benevolent or aggressive, would be regarded as a direct threat to national security. The "powers that be" regardless of the political system don't want unnecessary variables added to their balance of control. Even benevolent contact would be regarded as a threat because of the unknown social impact on the population.

Year's ago a study was done to determine what, if any, rights ET's would have if found within our world. The answer was absolutely zero rights. IIRC, the study was commissionned by NASA.

I have a reference to this buried somewhere on my hard-drive which I'll try to dig up.

Probably most of you have seen this video. As you can see, the idea of an "alien invasion", whether real or imagined or fabricated, could have tremendous impact on our world.

[zoser]

I once met a couple of bankers in Eastern Europe, two old Communist Party hacks who transformed themselves into capitalist hacks after 1989, but were basically just a front for a lot of dirty money coming in from Russia, Italy and God knows where else--Mob money, dope money, you name it.

Anyway, these guys said to me that the most profitable investments by far were in two areas: weapons and illegal drugs. By that they meant profits of 1,000% or more, which is a lot more than you can get investing in a textile mill.

They were a couple of scumbags, but I had no reason to doubt their analysis. In light of all the events that have occurred in the last few years how could anyone doubt it?

I should add that Robert Kennedy had this figured out long before most people, that a lot of things going on in the world were basically controlled by the Mafia and organized crime, whatever term you want to use. Even back then they had all these billions of dollars in dirty money that had to go somewhere and nowadays it's bigger than ever.

I have seen plenty of countries that are basically treated as private piggy banks by the gangster families that run them.

I like your adding up MacG. God only knows how you find all this material. Please keep up the good work

[TheMacGuffin]

I like your adding up MacG. God only knows how you find all this material. Please keep up the good work

It's just like the advice "Deep Throat" gave during Watergate: follow the money.

Just follow the money and you'll have many of your answers to a variety of questions, including the subjects being discussed here.

[badeskov]

None of you have really disproved the point that a Spacecraft Operator (ScO) is entitled to be called an "astronaut". None of you would even be hired by NASA as Paper Airplane Operators either.

And you haven't proven that a Spacecraft Operator (ScO) is entitled to be called an "astronaut", and I say that an ScO isn't. From Wiki:

This is an alphabetical list of astronauts, people trained by a manned spaceflight program to command, fly as a pilot, or serve as a crew member of a manned spacecraft.

Why isn't he on that list then? Because he is not entitled to the astronaut label. Just because I know everything about, say, a bus does not mean that can call myself a bus driver unless I am actually trained to drive the bus.

Cheers,

Badeskov

[booNyzarC]

And you haven't proven that a Spacecraft Operator (ScO) is entitled to be called an "astronaut", and I say that an ScO isn't. From Wiki:

Why isn't he on that list then? Because he is not entitled to the astronaut label. Just because I know everything about, say, a bus does not mean that can call myself a bus driver unless I am actually trained to drive the bus.

Cheers,

Badeskov

In addition to this, referring back to the same link that McG used earlier, another Spacecraft Operator (ScO) refers to astronauts in the third person, clearly making the distinction that he doesn't consider himself as one.

"The astronauts have a good job. They make it look easy," says Bill Powers, a spacecraft operator (SCO) since 1985. "Our job is just to make sure when they get the vehicle, there aren't any surprises."

Looking more and more to me like McClelland's usage of the term in reference to himself is completely inappropriate.

[badeskov]

In addition to this, referring back to the same link that McG used earlier, another Spacecraft Operator (ScO) refers to astronauts in the third person, clearly making the distinction that he doesn't consider himself as one.

Very true, BooNy.

Looking more and more to me like McClelland's usage of the term in reference to himself is completely inappropriate.

It does indeed look so.

Cheers,

Badeskov

[JimOberg]

You're right, McClelland does say that it's Wally Schirra with Kennedy, but I got confused because he has that picture right by the part where he talks about meeting JFK.

"Here's an exact copy of the Presidential Emblem I had given to me by President John F. Kennedy. He was at Cape Canaveral on November 16th, 1963 on a tour to be briefed by Astronaut Wally Shirra. Wally brought him to the Gemini-Titan II Launch Pad 19 where one was being processed for a launch.

Thanks for the correction. Good for you.

Was 'Shirra' a typo or did McClelland misspell it?

When the 7 first met the press, one journalist totally bungled saying Wally's name, and called him "Sky-Ray".

Shepard was so amused, he called Wally 'Sky-Ray' for the rest of his life.

[JimOberg]

None of you have really disproved the point that a Spacecraft Operator (ScO) is entitled to be called an "astronaut". None of you would even be hired by NASA as Paper Airplane Operators either.

Sure they have. Everybody knows what an 'astronaut' means. McClelland wasn't ever one.

Lincoln asks Douglas: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?"

Douglas: "Why, five, then."

Lincoln: "You are a fool. The answer is four. Calling a tail, a leg, doesn't MAKE it a leg."

Calling McClelland an 'astronaut', or even partially one ["half-astronaut"?], doesn't MAKE him one.

[JimOberg]

Do I think that von Braun knew a lot more about ETs and UFOs than he ever let on in public? Sure he did, just like his mentor Oberth.

I recall that one time someone interviewed his son who confirmed all kinds of interesting details that von Braun hinted at from time to time, such as how NASA picked up a 20-second alien transmission during the first moon landing.

I have been looking for more information about that interview for a long time.

If you haven't found it yet, I think a reasonable hypothesis is that you dreamed it.

What's your excuse? Dog ate the website?

[JimOberg]

I did see a quote from von Braun once where he mentioned that the ETs sometimes interfered with missiles and the space program, and that he had been aware of them going back to the early days at White Sands in 1946-47. Not only UFOs that crashed, but at least one that was observed coming in for a landing. He also said that there were trying to communicate with them, to set up some kind of contact if that was possible.

I konw this is going to annoy you with my obsessive behavior, but your saying YOU saw something, but not showing us where so we can double-check, carries zero evidentiary weight with me. Citation, please.

[JimOberg]

I like your adding up MacG. God only knows how you find all this material. Please keep up the good work

Zoser, regarding how MacG "finds" this material, you are remarkably on target with your assessment of who knows "how" he does it. Certianly, nobody ELSE knows how -- or can replicate his "finds", most of the time.