A rather obscure Bassoon Posted February 17, 2012 #126 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Argentine leader says UK 'arrogant' over Falklands Obama wants Israel gives up it's sovereignty now he is going after the UK and the Falklands wanting to them to give up theirs? Obama has enough problems at home and quite frankly should keep his nose out of British Sovereign affairs.The sooner he gets voted out the better,talk about false Prophets.... Edited February 17, 2012 by shaddow134 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted February 17, 2012 #127 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Well, that is just a plain SILLY comment, Right-Wing. Speaking of silly... I gather that Argentina has embedded ownership of the Falklands into its constitution ? If so, then Argentina is constitutionally required to - ultimately - go to war with the UK. Sometimes, the government of Argentina appear like spoilt children. How else to explain this constitutional amendment ? What kind of loonies embed a completely impossible gaol into their constitution, knowing that any attempt to accomplish that goal would require an act of war ? Talk about "hostage to fortune". Or should I say, "throwing toys out of pram" ? Here's a thing to consider... almost half of the population of the Falklands (e.g. legal residents) are "foreign". Only a handful are from Argentina. When it comes to tourist visitors, many are Argentinian, but almost exclusively the family of Argentinian servicemen who are buried on the Islands. To put it another way... Argentinians may claim to be passionate about their claims to the islands. But hardly ANY of them bother to visit, let alone settle. It seems the "passion" for the Falklands is limited to street protests, and then back to the nice warm residence in Buenos Aires for cocktail parties. Compare that childish, tantrum "I want it because I don't have it" mentality, with the quiet, stoic determination of the Falklanders to remain British. meow purr If their constitution requires the mto get Falkland ownership back we should go over there and change it for them if you get what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekorig Posted February 17, 2012 #128 Share Posted February 17, 2012 If their constitution requires the mto get Falkland ownership back we should go over there and change it for them if you get what I mean. I love arm-chair generals. Come and try Mr Right Wing. In fact, we still have some flags from the last two times the UK tried. The reason why our claim to the Malvinas is in our constitucion is easy. It is a part of our territory ocupied by a foreign power, and its our imperitive to mantain our territorial integrity. And, as a civilized nation, we are trying to solve the problem the right way, trough diplomacy. BTW ships-cat, try to look for a movie called "****land", it´s a comedy-drama that involves some of your idea. The thing is that your plan have a problem, argentines are restricted of buying property on the islands. In some argentine forum there was a joke about funding dual-citizenship people to buy and settle, and in a decade or two be more numerous than the british population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougal Posted February 17, 2012 #129 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I love arm-chair generals. Come and try Mr Right Wing. In fact, we still have some flags from the last two times the UK tried. The reason why our claim to the Malvinas is in our constitucion is easy. It is a part of our territory ocupied by a foreign power, and its our imperitive to mantain our territorial integrity. And, as a civilized nation, we are trying to solve the problem the right way, trough diplomacy. BTW ships-cat, try to look for a movie called "****land", it´s a comedy-drama that involves some of your idea. The thing is that your plan have a problem, argentines are restricted of buying property on the islands. In some argentine forum there was a joke about funding dual-citizenship people to buy and settle, and in a decade or two be more numerous than the british population. PLEASE don't think that Mr Right Wing's views are the same as those held by all British people! Further though, I wasn't aware that it was part of your territory, what with it being British and all Also your link doesn't work think it's because of the profanity filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted February 17, 2012 #130 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I love arm-chair generals. Come and try Mr Right Wing. In fact, we still have some flags from the last two times the UK tried. The reason why our claim to the Malvinas is in our constitucion is easy. It is a part of our territory ocupied by a foreign power, and its our imperitive to mantain our territorial integrity. And, as a civilized nation, we are trying to solve the problem the right way, trough diplomacy. BTW ships-cat, try to look for a movie called "****land", it´s a comedy-drama that involves some of your idea. The thing is that your plan have a problem, argentines are restricted of buying property on the islands. In some argentine forum there was a joke about funding dual-citizenship people to buy and settle, and in a decade or two be more numerous than the british population. I dont understand how you see them as Argentinian territory when they existed as part of the British Empire long before your nation was even created. Argentina has no legal claim, no moral claim and calling us Brits pirates or imperialists doesnt gain your people any respect over here. We believe in fairness in England and wont be pushed around by the likes of Argentina. If your country tries it again I suggest you quickly go on holiday and dont return home until after the war because I suspect we will use are nuclear detterant. I dont want to watch your people dying from radiation and burns so I hope your country doesnt make the mistake a second time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougal Posted February 17, 2012 #131 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I dont understand how you see them as Argentinian territory when they existed as part of the British Empire long before your nation was even created. Argentina has no legal claim, no moral claim and calling us Brits pirates or imperialists doesnt gain your people any respect over here. We believe in fairness in England and wont be pushed around by the likes of Argentina. If your country tries it again I suggest you quickly go on holiday and dont return home until after the war because I suspect we will use are nuclear detterant. I dont want to watch your people dying from radiation and burns so I hope your country doesnt make the mistake a second time. I very very very much doubt we'd use nukes. Infact I can almost guarantee that we won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted February 17, 2012 #132 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I very very very much doubt we'd use nukes. Infact I can almost guarantee that we won't. We've already sent the nuclear sub with the type 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougal Posted February 17, 2012 #133 Share Posted February 17, 2012 We've already sent the nuclear sub with the type 45. I think you mean we sent a sub with nuclear weapons there as commonly a nuclear sub is just one powered by a nuclear reactor afaik. Either way, sending weapons there and using them is a whole different ball game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp Posted February 17, 2012 #134 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I agree with you Mekorig..jingoistic nonsense from the right - wing press in the UK. Certainly sucked in the Usual Suspects though. To my own way of thinking negotiations are a good way to go, less than 3000 Falklanders and Stevewinn is proposing a DOUBLING of the navy assets to keep the Union Jack Flying there...crazy Nonsense to my way of thinking, dual sovereignty is the way forward, the Islanders would benefit hugely, International Relations would benefit hugely, it would be a Win - Win situation, the same with Gibraltar The main jingoistic is coming from the Argentinan government. They're the one who are endlessly whining about the ownership of the Falklands. The British are just defending their territory. After all Argentina has invaded before, who's to say they won't again? Increasing the military numbers there might convince them not to start another pointless war. And how is dual sovereignty win-win? It's only going to cause more problems as the two countries endlessly bicker over who trumps who. Meanwhile the Islanders get caught in the middle with both governments trying to pull them two different ways. The people of the Falkands, and Gibraltar, have been asked what country they want to belong to. They have both clearly picked Britain. That should be the end of it, unless they change their minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekorig Posted February 17, 2012 #135 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Cop, when part of your territory is ocuppied, its inhabitants expelled and foreign population is brought, you never end in trying to reclaim your territory. Imagine that the USA took Ottawa, expell all the canadians and brings some USa residents to live there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted February 17, 2012 #136 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Cop, when part of your territory is ocuppied, its inhabitants expelled and foreign population is brought, you never end in trying to reclaim your territory. Imagine that the USA took Ottawa, expell all the canadians and brings some USa residents to live there. Argentina seems to be locked into a dangerous state of mind which will see a lot of its young adults massacred in yet another lost war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp Posted February 17, 2012 #137 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Cop, when part of your territory is ocuppied, its inhabitants expelled and foreign population is brought, you never end in trying to reclaim your territory. Imagine that the USA took Ottawa, expell all the canadians and brings some USa residents to live there. If it happened hundreds of years ago, if Ottawa was owned and settled by several different countries, if it was last a penal colony last time we owned it, if we had only owned it for a dozen years, and if the only reason my government was trying to get it back was it distract the local population and grab oil rights then I wouldn't think it was worth another war. And just an fyi but Canada has lost disputed territory to the US a few times in the past but we've been able to move past that. Hell the national bountries of Europe have been redrawn several times but the Europeans seem to be getting along alright. Also there's a "r" in my user name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekorig Posted February 17, 2012 #138 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Also there's a "r" in my user name Sorry about that. The thing is, the question is up negotiation in the Special Committee on Decolonization in the UN, and Argentina is willing to negotiate (heck, some years ago there was some strong ideas about a joint sovereign of the islands, ala Hong Kong). It is the UK that refuse to sit down and negotiate, and keep sending boats and militarizing the south atlantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted February 17, 2012 #139 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The one interesting thing about these opposing claims to the Malvinas / Falklands, is that neither Argentina nor the UK will actually go to the International Courts for a resolution in this matter because neither side is sufficiently confident that their claim will stand. The International Courts will deliberate for a very long time on only the Legal Aspects of the claims and will deliver a verdict that will be just and fair. The fact that neither side want to take this route is a clear indication that neither really believes their claim to be entirely sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted February 17, 2012 #140 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Sorry about that. The thing is, the question is up negotiation in the Special Committee on Decolonization in the UN, and Argentina is willing to negotiate (heck, some years ago there was some strong ideas about a joint sovereign of the islands, ala Hong Kong). It is the UK that refuse to sit down and negotiate, and keep sending boats and militarizing the south atlantic. why should we negotiate when you dont have a claim on the territory? militarising the south atlantic,if you hadnt illegally invaded British sovereign territory in 1982, there would have been no need to improve defence of the islands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted February 17, 2012 #141 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Harping back to my previous post... It is evident that neither litigant has a clear claim on the Malvinas / Falklands - or else they would have pursued their claim through the International Courts. So.. both sides have a claim, but neither is sufficiently strong enough to guarantee success. Negotiations on Sovereignty between the UK, Argentina and the Falklands Local govt should be held. Then at least everyones voice is heard. Perhaps Argentina can convince the Falklanders that joining them is a good idea, depends what is put on the table... maybe not, and then we return to the current status quo. The whole point being that fully inclusive negotiations does not anount to "surrender" of sovereignty, but it does amount to a "Mature" approach to Foreign Policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekorig Posted February 17, 2012 #142 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Harping back to my previous post... It is evident that neither litigant has a clear claim on the Malvinas / Falklands - or else they would have pursued their claim through the International Courts. So.. both sides have a claim, but neither is sufficiently strong enough to guarantee success. Negotiations on Sovereignty between the UK, Argentina and the Falklands Local govt should be held. Then at least everyones voice is heard. Perhaps Argentina can convince the Falklanders that joining them is a good idea, depends what is put on the table... maybe not, and then we return to the current status quo. The whole point being that fully inclusive negotiations does not anount to "surrender" of sovereignty, but it does amount to a "Mature" approach to Foreign Policy. The thing is, the UN call for the UK and Argentina to negotiate, not the islanders. The UK is the one who tries to put them in the middle. The UN does not have them in count because they are not a native population, but an imported population. That si also why the self-determination policy have little weight in the discution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp Posted February 17, 2012 #143 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Sorry about that. The thing is, the question is up negotiation in the Special Committee on Decolonization in the UN, and Argentina is willing to negotiate (heck, some years ago there was some strong ideas about a joint sovereign of the islands, ala Hong Kong). It is the UK that refuse to sit down and negotiate, and keep sending boats and militarizing the south atlantic. Well thing is from an outsiders view there doesn't seem to be any reason why the UK should negotiate. From what I know of the Falklands history Argentina only had control of the islands for about thirteen years. Less than a generation. Before then the Spanish and British largely shared the islands. So it hardly seems to be some key part of Argentinian territory. After all the British have had the islands for almost two hundred years now and the locals want to remain part of the UK. So why keep pushing it? By continuing to bring this matter up it just makes Argentina look like bullies who want to conquer the islands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted February 17, 2012 #144 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The thing is, the UN call for the UK and Argentina to negotiate, not the islanders. The UK is the one who tries to put them in the middle. The UN does not have them in count because they are not a native population, but an imported population. That si also why the self-determination policy have little weight in the discution. The UK refuses to negiotiate because the islands have never been owned by Argentina. Argentina has no legal right to try and claim British territories which used to be Spanish. When Argentina rebelled against Spain it didnt suddendly gain the rights to any nearby Spanish territories that it liked the look off. If a second war comes a nuclear shock will need to be delivered followed by military occupation of the mainland. We will need to clean out the Argentinian leadership and give the people a new constituition to make sure the problem doesnt occur again. I hope it doesnt come to that as 500,000 dead Argentinians is a sad waste of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp Posted February 17, 2012 #145 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Right Wing the internet tough guy act isn't helping your position. In fact it's harming it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted February 17, 2012 #146 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The UK refuses to negiotiate because the islands have never been owned by Argentina. Argentina has no legal right to try and claim British territories which used to be Spanish. When Argentina rebelled against Spain it didnt suddendly gain the rights to any nearby Spanish territories that it liked the look off. If a second war comes a nuclear shock will need to be delivered followed by military occupation of the mainland. We will need to clean out the Argentinian leadership and give the people a new constituition to make sure the problem doesnt occur again. I hope it doesnt come to that as 500,000 dead Argentinians is a sad waste of life. If the Argies repeated '82 without help it would end the same way. Money spent and lives lost for no real gain, just a return to the status quo. Neither Britain nor any other sane government would kill so many people and spoil the very ground they were trying to defend over what amounts to a real estate grab. IMO the Argentines have taken a look at what the PA are trying in the UN and see that route as a bloodless, economically viable method to do what they couldn't do with force.... just like the Pali's. From their position, any concessions are a bonus and set a precedent for more in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted February 18, 2012 #147 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Why go on all the time about it being "part of your territory"? Why exactly is it so important that the Malvinas are part of Argentina? In practical terms, i mean. What do they have that makes it so important? Why is it, you might ask, so important that the Falklands remain British territory? Well, it seems to be that the people almost in their entirety want to be. Is that altogether unreasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp Posted February 18, 2012 #148 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I believe there some new oil/gas discovered in the area and control of the Falklands would help Argentina get more of the claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Silver Thong Posted February 18, 2012 #149 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I believe there some new oil/gas discovered in the area and control of the Falklands would help Argentina get more of the claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flibbertigibbet Posted February 18, 2012 #150 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Cop, when part of your territory is ocuppied, its inhabitants expelled and foreign population is brought, you never end in trying to reclaim your territory. Imagine that the USA took Ottawa, expell all the canadians and brings some USa residents to live there. When were the islands ever part of Argentina? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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