Demons

[JGirl]

Very good point araxia. In fact, a great book to read about just that topic is The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. It is a story of a demon "uncle Screwtape" writing letters back and forth to his nephew/protege "Wormwood" about the subtleties of snagging the souls of christians without their even being aware of it. A high premium is placed on coaxing the targets into repetitive habits [where they don't think] and in feeling superior to others via their christianity, and a host of other traps of the spirit.

A must-read for would-be exorcists in the clergy.

i have read this book, and i would recommend it - an excellent fiction story.

fiction story.

fiction.

[Cybele]

Omniscience does not logically contradict free will. Knowing something will happen is not the same as forcing it to happen. The difference is clear. A barometer anticipates the weather, but does not create it. God knows unfailingly what will happen, but we still have the free will to make our choices in life. God cannot force a free will agent to do something. That is a logical contradiction.

Knowing (rather than making a prediction or guess) that something will happen in advance means that there is only one true, predetermined outcome in this universe; and therefore the idea of choice leading to anything other than this eventuality is an illusion. God forcing something to happen is not the same thing as it being predetermined. Only the latter would have to be true for any being to have certain knowledge of our future. If our actions are not pre-determined, i.e.-we have true free will, God would know only an array of possibilities that collapse into one at the moment of our action--i.e.-he would not be omniscient.

I believe demons are archetypes and the anthropomorphization of our own negative emotions and societal "sins"--nothing more.

[OrdinaryClay]

Knowing (rather than making a prediction or guess) that something will happen in advance means that there is only one true, predetermined outcome in this universe; and therefore the idea of choice leading to anything other than this eventuality is an illusion. God forcing something to happen is not the same thing as it being predetermined. Only the latter would have to be true for any being to have certain knowledge of our future. If our actions are not pre-determined, i.e.-we have true free will, God would know only an array of possibilities that collapse into one at the moment of our action--i.e.-he would not be omniscient.

God has predetermined in the sense that he has establish the circumstances in which He knows we will make the choices we make. God knows all possible choices we would have made given all the possible circumstances. In philosophy this is called holding counter factual knowledge. Predetermination does not eliminate free will. A choice is separate from the circumstances leading to that choice. We could make another choice given the circumstances we find ourselves in. God simply knows before hand that we will not.

I believe demons are archetypes and the anthropomorphization of our own negative emotions and societal "sins"--nothing more.

I hear this all the time. Particularly among the LHP crowd. The term archetype in this context is ill and vaguely defined. It sounds weighty and profound but it really carries no meaning. Demons are either distinct spiritual entities or they are not. There is no middle ground.

Edited November 13, 2012 by OrdinaryClay

[Arbitran]

God has predetermined in the sense that he has establish the circumstances in which He knows we will make the choices we make. God knows all possible choices we would have made given all the possible circumstances. In philosophy this is called holding counter factual knowledge. Predetermination does not eliminate free will. A choice is separate from the circumstances leading to that choice. We could make another choice given the circumstances we find ourselves in. God simply knows before hand that we will not.

So... you're basically confirming what Cybele just said... God isn't truly omniscient unless he knows everything—that includes the choices we will make: ergo, the choices we make are preset, in some way or another, since God is apparently capable of knowing them in advance.

I hear this all the time. Particularly among the LHP crowd. The term archetype in this context is ill and vaguely defined. It sounds weighty and profound but it really carries no meaning. Demons are either distinct spiritual entities or they are not. There is no middle ground.

I disagree with your false dichotomy, but I will agree with your actual dichotomy: either demons are distinct spiritual entities, or they are not. I posit they are not. "Spiritual entities", I propose, do not exist in the first place.

PS ~ You accuse the word "archetype" of being "ill and vaguely defined"... and "spiritual entity" isn't?

[SSilhouette]

i have read this book, and i would recommend it - an excellent fiction story.

fiction story.

fiction.

JGirl, that's exactly the mantra Screwtape would recommend to Wormwood to instill in one of his targets that was on the verge of discovering their presence.

Ironic. I wonder then what it was you found "excellent" about The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis? Because as anyone knows, the best fiction stories are those that imitate life the closest. Gives them that believable-edge and "possibility" that complete farce doesn't come near.

So I guess what I'm asking is, what part of that book rang true for you to make you classify it as "excellent"?

With the hundreds of thousands, millions perhaps, of ghost reports, even if a small fraction of them only are of some real thing that has awareness but can't be readily seen or heard, we would do well to not dismiss them so flippantly. Some people really are living in houses where the furniture and dishes are moving about, sometimes violently. Some even get pushed down the stairs and become injured from the unseen. It seems that if this is happening, even in a small percentage of the reports, we should look at it.

Like every generation before us, we like to fancy ourselves the epitome of civilization and completion of discovery. Yet we only know a thumbnail of what their is to know. If you subscribe, as Screwtape would have you do, to the belief that the physical world is all there is then this thread is meaningless to you. [Yet one would wonder why you're posting on a website like this?]. But it is possible that we are here in the physical world to test our spiritual resolve. Mystics across cultures, cut off from each other have over and over through time come to the same conclusion. When that type of independent discovery happens, you have to sit up and take notice. Patterns beg for attention.

Edited November 13, 2012 by SSilhouette

[JGirl]

JGirl, that's exactly the mantra Screwtape would recommend to Wormwood to instill in one of his targets that was on the verge of discovering their presence.

Ironic. I wonder then what it was you found "excellent" about The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis? Because as anyone knows, the best fiction stories are those that imitate life the closest. Gives them that believable-edge and "possibility" that complete farce doesn't come near.

So I guess what I'm asking is, what part of that book rang true for you to make you classify it as "excellent"?

With the hundreds of thousands, millions perhaps, of ghost reports, even if a small fraction of them only are of some real thing that has awareness but can't be readily seen or heard, we would do well to not dismiss them so flippantly. Some people really are living in houses where the furniture and dishes are moving about, sometimes violently. Some even get pushed down the stairs and become injured from the unseen. It seems that if this is happening, even in a small percentage of the reports, we should look at it.

Like every generation before us, we like to fancy ourselves the epitome of civilization and completion of discovery. Yet we only know a thumbnail of what their is to know. If you subscribe, as Screwtape would have you do, to the belief that the physical world is all there is then this thread is meaningless to you. [Yet one would wonder why you're posting on a website like this?]. But it is possible that we are here in the physical world to test our spiritual resolve. Mystics across cultures, cut off from each other have over and over through time come to the same conclusion. When that type of independent discovery happens, you have to sit up and take notice. Patterns beg for attention.

i found that novel to be an excellent parable just as i do with all of lewis' novels. obviously you are surprised that i am a spiritual person lol

perhaps if you were interested you might wait and see where a person stands on issues before you make assumptions hm?

Edited November 13, 2012 by JGirl

[SpiritWriter]

JGirl, that's exactly the mantra Screwtape would recommend to Wormwood to instill in one of his targets that was on the verge of discovering their presence.

Ironic. I wonder then what it was you found "excellent" about The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis? Because as anyone knows, the best fiction stories are those that imitate life the closest. Gives them that believable-edge and "possibility" that complete farce doesn't come near.

So I guess what I'm asking is, what part of that book rang true for you to make you classify it as "excellent"?

With the hundreds of thousands, millions perhaps, of ghost reports, even if a small fraction of them only are of some real thing that has awareness but can't be readily seen or heard, we would do well to not dismiss them so flippantly. Some people really are living in houses where the furniture and dishes are moving about, sometimes violently. Some even get pushed down the stairs and become injured from the unseen. It seems that if this is happening, even in a small percentage of the reports, we should look at it.

Like every generation before us, we like to fancy ourselves the epitome of civilization and completion of discovery. Yet we only know a thumbnail of what their is to know. If you subscribe, as Screwtape would have you do, to the belief that the physical world is all there is then this thread is meaningless to you. [Yet one would wonder why you're posting on a website like this?]. But it is possible that we are here in the physical world to test our spiritual resolve. Mystics across cultures, cut off from each other have over and over through time come to the same conclusion. When that type of independent discovery happens, you have to sit up and take notice. Patterns beg for attention.

Amen

[OrdinaryClay]

So... you're basically confirming what Cybele just said... God isn't truly omniscient unless he knows everything—that includes the choices we will make: ergo, the choices we make are preset, in some way or another, since God is apparently capable of knowing them in advance.

No, I'm saying God is omniscient because He possesses middle knowledge which is knowing the choices we would have made, but didn't. See Gods Knowledge

I disagree with your false dichotomy, but I will agree with your actual dichotomy: either demons are distinct spiritual entities, or they are not. I posit they are not. "Spiritual entities", I propose, do not exist in the first place.

If my dichotomy is false, what is the third option?

PS ~ You accuse the word "archetype" of being "ill and vaguely defined"... and "spiritual entity" isn't?

I stated in the context she used it it was ill defined. Clearly the word is defined. Yes, spiritual entity is defined. It's a disembodied independent consciousness. You just said you did not believe they were spiritual entities. If you didn't understand what I meant by spiritual entity you would not have been able to deny their existence.

Edited November 14, 2012 by OrdinaryClay

[Arbitran]

No, I'm saying God is omniscient because He possesses middle knowledge which is knowing the choices we would have made, but didn't. See Gods Knowledge

How does that disagree with me, exactly? You claim God is omniscient; that, by definition, means that he would have to know everything. Does he or doesn't he? In any case, how would it be even remotely possible for anyone to know whether somebody else knew everything? Hell, how would it be possible for anyone to know if they themselves knew everything? The idea of omniscience strikes me as over-pretentious; a nifty idea, but not very logically-sound.

If my dichotomy is false, what is the third option?

Your dichotomy is both false and true, in different ways: because demons could absolutely be more than merely either "spiritual entities" or "not spiritual entities", in the sense that they could be archetypical constructs, they could be aliens, they could be glitches in the Matrix, it really doesn't matter: they could be just about anything. However, when looked at in the context of 'are they or are they not spiritual entities', specifically, then yes, that is a proper dichotomy. You were unclear as to the context in your original post, hence the ambiguous nature of its true/false dichotomy status.

I stated in the context she used it it was ill defined. Clearly the word is defined. Yes, spiritual entity is defined. It's a disembodied independent consciousness.

You give that definition of 'spiritual entity'. I could go out onto the street and receive a dozen alternate definitions in a heartbeat. The nature of "spiritual", I find, has historically been a very nebulous and ambiguous term.

Pray tell, would a disembodied, virtual, artificial consciousness qualify as being "spiritual"? In any case, you haven't done so much as to demonstrate that it's possible for an "independent disembodied consciousness" to exist in the first place. It's rather a moot point; if we're going to try and work out what demons are, can we not limit our search to things which exist? Unless you'd like to include glitches in the Matrix, magic, and fairies in the list of possibilities as well, eh?

You just said you did not believe they were spiritual entities. If you didn't understand what I meant by spiritual entity you would not have been able to deny their existence.

I know what you meant; just because I understand what you meant doesn't make the concept you're attempting to convey any less vacuous and ill-defined.

(Incidentally, I'd prefer if your response to this didn't include the claim that "I just defined it, so it isn't ill-defined". There is a difference between undefined and ill-defined, you know.)

[OrdinaryClay]

How does that disagree with me, exactly?

It's the opposite of what you claimed.

You claim God is omniscient; that, by definition, means that he would have to know everything. Does he or doesn't he?

Yes, as was explained.

In any case, how would it be even remotely possible for anyone to know whether somebody else knew everything?

Based on the evidence of God's characteristics and philosophical reasoning.

Hell, how would it be possible for anyone to know if they themselves knew everything?

Not relevant.

The idea of omniscience strikes me as over-pretentious; a nifty idea

Whether you or I are pretentious has nothing to do with God's characteristics.

, but not very logically-sound.

It's logically sound if you understand logic.

Your dichotomy is both false and true, in different ways

This is not possible for a false dichotomy.

because demons could absolutely be more than merely either "spiritual entities" or "not spiritual entities",

It's not logically possible to be anything other than X or not X. They are mutually exclusive and exhaustive.

in the sense that they could be archetypical constructs,

This is gobbledygook

[OrdinaryClay]

they could be aliens, they could be glitches in the Matrix,

Then they would not be spiritual entities.

it really doesn't matter: they could be just about anything.

Not accoding to the evidence.

However, when looked at in the context of 'are they or are they not spiritual entities', specifically, then yes, that is a proper dichotomy. You were unclear as to the context in your original post, hence the ambiguous nature of its true/false dichotomy status.

The context was her post.

You give that definition of 'spiritual entity'. I could go out onto the street and receive a dozen alternate definitions in a heartbeat. The nature of "spiritual", I find, has historically been a very nebulous and ambiguous term.

Your search has been very shallow. All cultures through out history believe in spirits and they are always disembodied consciousnesses.

Pray tell, would a disembodied, virtual, artificial consciousness qualify as being "spiritual"?

They don't exist.

In any case, you haven't done so much as to demonstrate that it's possible for an "independent disembodied consciousness" to exist in the first place.

Not relevant.

It's rather a moot point; if we're going to try and work out what demons are, can we not limit our search to things which exist?

The evidence is in favor of demons existing.

[Lava_Lady]

what is there to know about demons? like what r there weaknesses? can they be trusted? who created them? just everything from the beginning to now please tell me im very curious...

I think there are a lot of answers to your questions, different religions have their own versions of demons and even the same religions from different cultures have their own versions.

You might want to start by reading up on Zoroastrianism. A lot of the modern day Christian beliefs of angels and devils come from the Zoroastrians.

A little research in this area might be a good start.

[Arbitran]

It's the opposite of what you claimed.

Not the way I read it. Here's a dichotomy for you: either God knows everything, and is therefore omniscient, or he does not, and is not omniscient. It's quite simple.

Based on the evidence of God's characteristics and philosophical reasoning.

Both of which are utterly meaningless in actual evidence-based discussions; which this has now become.

Not relevant.

Perhaps not, but nonetheless a question which wouldn't hurt your case to answer, hmm?

Whether you or I are pretentious has nothing to do with God's characteristics.

Correct; though that doesn't much address what I was saying.

It's logically sound if you understand logic.

Only one who didn't understand logic, I'm afraid, would be so naive as to claim such a thing, without so much as refuting the argument given...

This is not possible for a false dichotomy.

Of course it is; in one context it is hopelessly false, in another it is acceptable. You seem to have a penchant for disagreeing with me: less of one for actually refuting what I say, for sure...

It's not logically possible to be anything other than X or not X. They are mutually exclusive and exhaustive.

Hence the distinction in context which I made very clear: in the context which assumes the relevance of only X and not X, they are, of course, exclusive, as you say.

In another context however, which is not out of the question, given the unstated and, as I've said, ambiguous context of the basal inquiry, the existence of X, not X, Y, not Y, Z, not Z, etc., etc., ad infinitum could be presumed. It is not unreasonable to include such; given that, in the context (not uncalled-for) of the very nature of the question of the existence of demons, any and every possible solution to the problem could be conceivably put forward. Narrowing down those possibilities is a foremost concern to the inquiry itself; and given your lack of stated significance, I see little reason to predetermine "spiritual entities" as being any more likely an answer than magical flatworms from Mars; it's a simple X versus Y scenario.

This is gobbledygook

Perhaps... or it could be your misinterpretation and/or disingenuous ignorance or general failure to grasp the principle of the subject matter. It's the same old misunderstanding of logic which your displayed before...

[Arbitran]

Then they would not be spiritual entities.

No, they would (presumably) not be (though there is room for debate here, I will let your momentary slip pass for now). They would be Y and Z as opposed to your aforementioned X; they would of course both qualify as not X, just as X would qualify as not Y and not Z, etc., etc. This is not relevant.

Not accoding to the evidence.

The "evidence" which you speak so fondly of, yet neglect at every turn to provide... hmm...

The context was her post.

The context, as you wrote it, was ambiguous and undefined; leaving itself open to the fallacies which I noted.

Your search has been very shallow. All cultures through out history believe in spirits and they are always disembodied consciousnesses.

Oh, and I take it you've research has been so thorough as to encompass all cultures throughout history? Hmm... Now, who was it you were claiming possessed omniscience again? Your god, or you?

In any case, your claim is easily refutable. Not only are the descriptions of "spirits" in varied cultures no less diverse than the cultures themselves, but neither has my search been shallow; otherwise I would likely be unaware of the fact which I have just stated, no?

They don't exist.

Hmm... you speak with great surety... I'll let that fallacy pass for now...

Presuming (without cognizant pretense) that artificial consciousnesses do not exist, as you claim, if they were to exist at some past or future time, would they or would they not qualify as "spiritual" in nature. (I admit I do not appreciate your utter ignorance of my initial question...)

Not relevant.

Quite relevant, actually. If you can claim the existence of "independent disembodied consciousness" without substantiation, then it is perfectly reasonable to claim the existence of artificial consciousnesses, fairies, glitches in the Matrix, etc., etc., ad infinitum; this being the essential flaw in your reasoning which has been evident, and which I have thusly noted, in your posts.

The evidence is in favor of demons existing.

You have provided no such evidence; nor are any of us here aware of any such evidence. As it stands: your claim is bald and vacuous.

[Arbitran]

Also, OrdinaryClay, I would request that you limit your tireless retorts to responding to paragraphs or concepts, rather than the tedious sentence-by-sentence method you appear to have presently adopted. It's much simpler to read and to respond to, and it's much tidier (it was quite noticeable that you used two full posts to respond to a single of mine; the task would have been far simpler had you restricted yourself to responding to larger portions of text).

Edited November 14, 2012 by Arbitran

[Etu Malku]

It's the opposite of what you claimed.

Yes, as was explained.

Based on the evidence of God's characteristics and philosophical reasoning.

Not relevant.

Whether you or I are pretentious has nothing to do with God's characteristics.

It's logically sound if you understand logic.

This is not possible for a false dichotomy.

It's not logically possible to be anything other than X or not X. They are mutually exclusive and exhaustive.

This is gobbledygook

Then as I stated before, this god is pure evil as the Gnostics believed.

Who in their right mind creates man & woman, introduces Sin to them, sends his Son down where he is brutally crucified in order to absolve Mankind of this Sin? LOL . . . cuckoo cuckoo!

How can you keep speaking about the characteristics of a god that no one has EVER seen, met, or really knows (after all he's the Unknowable one isn't he?)

The only rational and suitable "logic" is that indeed this god as well as any & all gods are nothing more than archetypal images created by Mankind and embedded deeply within the unconsciousness where they work their "magick" on our consciousness.

A god is a thought-form, a meme, a huge independent egregore empowered by Mankind and like all the gods before this Abrahamic god, it can be destroyed my Mankind as well.

[freetoroam]

i have heard about demons which have been created by man as part of their religious following. Some people can see or hear the demons the same they see or hear the God they follow.

There are also demons which can manifest in a persons mind due to things completely none religious. Demons which occur from drugs, the results of wars, drink, paranoia.

Demons come in all shapes and forms...but one thing they all have in common, they are all man made somehow.

[SSilhouette]

No, men haven't created demons. If you subscribe to the notion that humans are not the only sentient intelligent awareness around, as I do, you realize that perhaps 'demons' predated humans since time immemorial. Surviving as an energy body might be a much longer-lived affair than wearing flesh. We really don't fully understand how awareness maintains cohesion on the "other side" of the veil dynamic. If human ghosts can survive intact as intelligent awareness [see interactive sessions & recordings in latest ghost hunting techniques], there's no reason to beleive we are the singular and only species of awareness that can do that.

It could be that demons are simply feeding on energy. Malaise, stress and disharmony all bleed off tons of energy. So it's no mistake perhaps that people "affected by demons" are embroiled in stress, malaise and disharmony. You can't really blame creatures for wanting to eat. You can figure out ways though to keep them from their food source...

[JGirl]

Demons come in all shapes and forms...but one thing they all have in common, they are all man made somehow.

i agree wholeheartedly

[SSilhouette]

I wish I could agree. I don't have that luxury.

[Lumpino]

A beautiful movie, summonig a demon according to the medieval grimoire. Dr. Faust 1926

[coldethyl]

A beautiful movie, summonig a demon according to the medieval grimoire. Dr. Faust 1926

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[/media]

Whatever is under that demon's hat must smell really, really bad.

[Etu Malku]

No, men haven't created demons. If you subscribe to the notion that humans are not the only sentient intelligent awareness around, as I do, you realize that perhaps 'demons' predated humans since time immemorial. Surviving as an energy body might be a much longer-lived affair than wearing flesh. We really don't fully understand how awareness maintains cohesion on the "other side" of the veil dynamic. If human ghosts can survive intact as intelligent awareness [see interactive sessions & recordings in latest ghost hunting techniques], there's no reason to beleive we are the singular and only species of awareness that can do that.

An interesting theory, I have no problem with this.

It could be that demons are simply feeding on energy. Malaise, stress and disharmony all bleed off tons of energy. So it's no mistake perhaps that people "affected by demons" are embroiled in stress, malaise and disharmony. You can't really blame creatures for wanting to eat. You can figure out ways though to keep them from their food source...

The dæmons on the reverse Sephira Gamaliel do indeed drain life force and tunnel it deeper into the Tree of Death where it nourishes all the Qliphoth.

[Lilly]

Well, I say the Balrogs (who were originally creation spirits) have taken demon form due to being corrupted by Morgoth. Must be true 'cause I read it 'somewhere'.

[DancingCorpse]

I wonder whether they consider themselves as evil or even have any concept of it, perhaps indifferent like the wasp that stings or the bear that kills for nourishment though ofc infinitely more intelligent and crafty..