"What has the EU done for Us?"

[questionmark]

No, it would be a bloody marvellous outcome. just think saving millions of people from the future consequences of a European superstate. (you as an avid supporter will be asking the question what future consequences?)

Back in 1999 with the launch of the Euro the future consequences back then are what we are witnessing now. in such places as Greece etc... Portugal are now on the verge with its debt downgrade to 'junk' hopefully Portugal need another bailout, Spain will wobble, by this stage we'll be six months down the line and the problem with Greece will reappear - with more bailout money needed. Spain will then be cap in hand. the EU will be without money. violence will breakout across Europe. then just watch what happens in elections in Europe, politically europe will lurch to the right.

am just going to sit back and enjoy it, because i know at whose feet the blame will lay. the people the ilk of Questionmark BR Ape, etc...

Don't hold your breath until the catastrophe you have been predicting the last 5 years sets in. You might turn blue in the process.

[stevewinn]

Don't hold your breath until the catastrophe you have been predicting the last 5 years sets in. You might turn blue in the process.

the end is inching closer every single day.

[Guest]

the end is inching closer every single day.

Be careful what you wish for as you might just get it,

If the Euro or EU were to collapse it would plunge the world into a financial crisis unlike any we have seen since the great depression - such is the volitility of the speculative markets at the moment.

I don't think that would be a desirable outcome.

Br Cornelius

[Ozner]

Germany was multinational, in fact some parts of the German speaking areas still are separate countries(I.e Austria, Lichtenstein) or part of other countries (i.e. Switzerland. Luxembourg, Denmark, France, Italy). Prussia in 1860 had as much in common with Bavaria as Germany in 2011 has with Spain....so your point is?

German ethnic groups can be in separate countries, but that doesn't make them less German. It's hard to call the Zollverein a multi-ethnic organization when most of those elasticities happened to be Germanic.

Countries are not blood and race bounds but common interest of its citizens that outweigh the common disadvantages by their union.

I agree with this completely. But that's not what the EU is, it's not a country. It's a vaguely defined political union. The Zollverein eventually formed itself into the modern state of Germany. It served its purpose by uniting a mostly unorganized group of people. The EU however seeks to exist permanently between alliance and nation. It has enough strength to change minor things and cause some problems, but not enough to make any serious long term changes. If the EU is really like the Zollverein then it will nationalize at some point.

[questionmark]

German ethnic groups can be in separate countries, but that doesn't make them less German. It's hard to call the Zollverein a multi-ethnic organization when most of those elasticities happened to be Germanic.

I agree with this completely. But that's not what the EU is, it's not a country. It's a vaguely defined political union. The Zollverein eventually formed itself into the modern state of Germany. It served its purpose by uniting a mostly unorganized group of people. The EU however seeks to exist permanently between alliance and nation. It has enough strength to change minor things and cause some problems, but not enough to make any serious long term changes. If the EU is really like the Zollverein then it will nationalize at some point.

Just as Europe (at least the core of it) will form some day the United States of Europe. And the common market will have been what the Zollverein was then.

[smurf0852]

what like p*** away my hard earned tax ££s

not really we p*** away most of our hard earned tax supporting private industry in our own country ,about 30 billion making up the wages of low paid workers in the form of tax credits.

we have a false ecomomy based on financial dealing .the british no longer produce anything apart from loans and depts .if we want to survive we need to be in europe everyone who thinks otherwise

look to america .look at the crime the healthcare the xenophobia and think is this what we want .i would rather have a society and economy like germany based on manufacturing and fair wages.

[stevewinn]

not really we p*** away most of our hard earned tax supporting private industry in our own country ,about 30 billion making up the wages of low paid workers in the form of tax credits.

we have a false ecomomy based on financial dealing .the british no longer produce anything apart from loans and depts .if we want to survive we need to be in europe everyone who thinks otherwise

look to america .look at the crime the healthcare the xenophobia and think is this what we want .i would rather have a society and economy like germany based on manufacturing and fair wages.

if we need to survive we need to be in europe? what a load of rubbish. why do people suffer with this fear and silly notion that if we are NOT part of europe we'll sink into the abyss.

instead of doubting ourselves its about time we stood up and said we can do it. and then go on and do it.

look at it from the point of view. Break away from europe do our own thing, make the country more attractive to business. manufacturing for example the Tory party have already started the process. our manufacturing sector is growing faster than any other country in europe BBCwith businesses investing more. look at the car industry Jaguar - Land Rover, producing Jaguar, Range Rover and Land rover vehicles. Nissan just agreed to produce its new model up in the north east Sunderland. then we have BMW also building the new mini over here. then we have the Chinese building a new car at the MG Rover midlands plant. Vauxhall investing in its ellesmere port plant. Cunard the ocean liners - planning to build their next two liners here. the list goes on and on.

Their not investing here because we use the Euro. there not investing here because the UK is logistically better placed than on mainland europe. so why are they investing here. - like any business they'll go to where the conditions favour their profits. but balanced by quality workmanship.

[Guest]

if we need to survive we need to be in europe? what a load of rubbish. why do people suffer with this fear and silly notion that if we are NOT part of europe we'll sink into the abyss.

instead of doubting ourselves its about time we stood up and said we can do it. and then go on and do it.

look at it from the point of view. Break away from europe do our own thing, make the country more attractive to business. manufacturing for example the Tory party have already started the process. our manufacturing sector is growing faster than any other country in europe BBCwith businesses investing more. look at the car industry Jaguar - Land Rover, producing Jaguar, Range Rover and Land rover vehicles. Nissan just agreed to produce its new model up in the north east Sunderland. then we have BMW also building the new mini over here. then we have the Chinese building a new car at the MG Rover midlands plant. Vauxhall investing in its ellesmere port plant. Cunard the ocean liners - planning to build their next two liners here. the list goes on and on.

Their not investing here because we use the Euro. there not investing here because the UK is logistically better placed than on mainland europe. so why are they investing here. - like any business they'll go to where the conditions favour their profits. but balanced by quality workmanship.

And that is an argument against the EU in what way ?

All those things are happening with the UK in the EU, but you also get the advantages of low trade tariffs and a common market. Out of the EU we lose our competitive edge against those in it because we will have trade barriers raised. That is the nature of transnational trade - you protect your own markets against foreign competition by raising trade barriers. That is the primary logic of the EU and we would do a lot better if we started to manufacture goods which Europeans wanted. At the moment the UK is crippled by its fixation on banking and short term financial service's - both of which are the darlings of the Conservatives. What you have described is the Government finally realising that manufacturing is an asset and financial services a liability and has absolutely nothing to do with been in or out of the EU. The difference between been in or out is simply that we have a better market to sell the good of of revitilized industry into. You have to note that no one in the Conservative party is seriously suggesting pulling out of the EU (only the loony fringe).

Br Cornelius

Edited July 8, 2011 by Guest

[itsnotoutthere]

not really we p*** away most of our hard earned tax supporting private industry in our own country ,about 30 billion making up the wages of low paid workers in the form of tax credits.

we have a false ecomomy based on financial dealing .the british no longer produce anything apart from loans and depts .if we want to survive we need to be in europe everyone who thinks otherwise

look to america .look at the crime the healthcare the xenophobia and think is this what we want .i would rather have a society and economy like germany based on manufacturing and fair wages.

Of course that should read..... 'not really we p*** away most of our hard earned tax supporting the public sector'

By A.N. Other re- the recent strike by public sector workers :-

Today, of course, saw the bloated “public sector” finally hit the streets after 13 years of gorging on money borrowed and stolen from future generations. An army of Lesbian Outreach Diversity facilitators and Nail Extension and Spray Tan Lecturers blubbered that it wasn’t fair that just because their Fabian masters gave all the money to the banks they might have to live on a smaller pension. Like the private sector does. They have my full sympathy, of course.

“But the only reason you can read this is because a state teacher taught you how”, was the battle cry. b******s to that. The Telegraph points out that 1.7 MILLION children in the UK are now “defined” as having “special needs”. 1 in 5 of our children is classified as a mong by the very people who get paid YOUR money to teach mongs (except they are on strike today, for not getting enough of your money to retire on to Tuscany).

I’m not a great fan of the State educating ANY child. I certainly do not believe it represents good value when the exam system throws out millions of shuffling idiots incapable of finding gainful employment but gleefully clutching a “certificate of welfare entitlement”, so an army of yet more Fabian “specialists” can be employed to counsel the little darlings when their anger management techniques, taught aged 5, cannot cope with being skint, stupid and futureless.

I have six children. I sat with them, read with them, worked with them, encouraged them, imparted wisdom on them, nurtured their intellects, fed their ambitions, opened their minds, instructed them in life, all its failures and successes. I conversed with them, poured over dictionaries with them, pointed and showed them the world around them, explained their rights and their responsibilities to them. I cared for them because I am their father, it is my job.

If the State wants to assume all of the above, then 500,000 Fabians are the very WORST people to do it. All they have been taught is dependency, entitlement, compliancy, uniformity and slavery, the very WORST education a child can receive.

My children deserved better. So I made sure they received it. They thrived in spite of the State, something we all need to learn. But don’t expect to be taught it by anyone employed by the State.

Edited July 8, 2011 by itsnotoutthere

[stevewinn]

And that is an argument against the EU in what way ?

All those things are happening with the UK in the EU, but you also get the advantages of low trade tariffs and a common market. Out of the EU we lose our competitive edge against those in it because we will have trade barriers raised. That is the nature of transnational trade - you protect your own markets against foreign competition by raising trade barriers. That is the primary logic of the EU and we would do a lot better if we started to manufacture goods which Europeans wanted. At the moment the UK is crippled by its fixation on banking and short term financial service's - both of which are the darlings of the Conservatives. What you have described is the Government finally realising that manufacturing is an asset and financial services a liability and has absolutely nothing to do with been in or out of the EU. The difference between been in or out is simply that we have a better market to sell the good of of revitilized industry into. You have to note that no one in the Conservative party is seriously suggesting pulling out of the EU (only the loony fringe).

Br Cornelius

point was it just shows what we can do as a country. the future markets exist outside the EU. the EU holds us back just imagine what we could achieve without all the EU legislation.

[questionmark]

point was it just shows what we can do as a country. the future markets exist outside the EU. the EU holds us back just imagine what we could achieve without all the EU legislation.

Not much. That was the reason Britain joined in the first place.

[Space Commander Travis]

I don't understand how some people seem to want an enormous superstate, other than just the old argument about creating a new superpower to take over following the demise of America since someone has to rattle sabres at China. I'm all, as I've said before, in favour of free trade and yes, and I know those on the right in England would probably disagree, free and unhindered movement between nations, but I don't see how a United States of Europe could possibly be viable, seeing how Europe doesn't have a George Washington and there isn't the ideal of pulling together to break way from being a colony, which was what held the US together (and that didn't get where it is today without a few bumps along the way, such as that small matter of a Civil War); and is a massive centralised state, with an enormous centralised beaureaucracy and ambitions to be a Great Power, something that people really want?

[questionmark]

I don't understand how some people seem to want an enormous superstate, other than just the old argument about creating a new superpower to take over following the demise of America since someone has to rattle sabres at China. I'm all, as I've said before, in favour of free trade and yes, and I know those on the right in England would probably disagree, free and unhindered movement between nations, but I don't see how a United States of Europe could possibly be viable, seeing how Europe doesn't have a George Washington and there isn't the ideal of pulling together to break way from being a colony, which was what held the US together (and that didn't get where it is today without a few bumps along the way, such as that small matter of a Civil War); and is a massive centralised state, with an enormous centralised beaureaucracy and ambitions to be a Great Power, something that people really want?

Why does Europe need a George Washington? All it has to liberate itself from the the hatred of each other. A military leader does not help.

[Spark Plug]

It's Germany trying to dominate European the way that it failed to dominate Europe using military invasion not too long ago. France is its poodle.

The EU is designed to prevent European peoples killing each other in yet another World War.

I wonder if this means there is a secret route to power where a future dictator of one of the EU nations is made EU President? Could you imagine a Hitler, Napoleon or Nero with that amount of base power?

I think the Bible says the Anti-Christ will lead a restored Roman Empire. Mmmm. We best stop Tony Blair now lol.

[Black Red Devil]

The EU is designed to prevent European peoples killing each other in yet another World War.

I wonder if this means there is a secret route to power where a future dictator of one of the EU nations is made EU President? Could you imagine a Hitler, Napoleon or Nero with that amount of base power?

I think the Bible says the Anti-Christ will lead a restored Roman Empire. Mmmm. We best stop Tony Blair now lol.

This is probably the most unlikeliest scenario possible under the institution of the European Council.

Edited July 9, 2011 by BlackRedLittleDevil

[maca02]

Don't hold your breath until the catastrophe you have been predicting the last 5 years sets in. You might turn blue in the process.

Reg: They've bled us white, the b*******. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.

Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.

Reg: Yes.

Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.

Reg: All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?

Xerxes: The aqueduct.

Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.

Masked Activist: And the sanitation!

Stan: Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.

Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done...

Matthias: And the roads...

Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...

Another Masked Activist: Irrigation...

Other Masked Voices: Medicine... Education... Health...

Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...

Activist Near Front: And the wine...

Omnes: Oh yes! True!

Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.

Masked Activist at Back: Public baths!

Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.

Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.

(more general murmurs of agreement)

Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?

Xerxes: Brought peace!

Reg: (very angry, he's not having a good meeting at all) What!? Oh... (scornfully) Peace, yes... shut up!

OOPS wong thread

[Space Commander Travis]

Why does Europe need a George Washington? All it has to liberate itself from the the hatred of each other. A military leader does not help.

But (for instance) what have Greece, Portugal, Estonia and Romania got in common to make there any point at all in coming together as a single state? Wouldn't that need a leader of a Washingtonian kind of stature to weld together such a lot of disparate nations? Washington wasn't just a miltary leader; in fact, he had a lot easier task than the enthusiasts for the European superstate project, as the people he brought together all had a common heritage and a common cause. Whereas the only people who have tried to unite the nations of Europe in a centrally administered superstate- well, they have tended to have a bit of military force behind them. I'm sure I don't have to name names, but look at some of those who have tried to construct a European superstate, or at least a centrally controlled empire; is that really an encouraging precedent? Would it really take merging everything together in one vast mass to liberate everyone from the the hatred of each other? Is it not possible to liberate everyone from the the hatred of each other while retaining independent nations? In fact, mightn't bringing everything together in one huge manufactured nation be a recipe for these hatreds of each other to bubble away until they have to find an outlet somewhere? Doesn't Yugoslavia suggest a precedent there?

[Spark Plug]

This is probably the most unlikeliest scenario possible under the institution of the European Council.

Next time when it comes the Brits, French, Prussians and Italians will be on the same side tied together by the EU Constituiton.

I predict the EU will win even if its against the US, Russia or China.

Alone each state wont get far but together we are collectively more powerful than China, Russia and the US right now nevermind in the future.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Spark Plug

[Space Commander Travis]

Oh goody, looking forward to the next Global Conflict then. So is that the agenda behind the EU Superstate Project, then? To liberate the nations of Europe from the the hatred of each other, and instead unite them behind hatred of whoever we decide is the next Enemy? Can I opt for neutrality please in your Global conflict?

[Guest]

Oh goody, looking forward to the next Global Conflict then. So is that the agenda behind the EU Superstate Project, then? To liberate the nations of Europe from the the hatred of each other, and instead unite them behind hatred of whoever we decide is the next Enemy? Can I opt for neutrality please in your Global conflict?

I would not like to be a client state of China when resource conflicts start to accellerate - been a Federal member of a cooperative body is very different from been a colonial subject state.

Britain's status as a client state of the USA hasn't really been an asset in the last few decades.

There is a world of difference between been a Federal member of a cooperative body with full say in its decision making processes, and been an isolated state who needs to align themselves with a superpower with no say in their policy decisions.

Br Cornelius

[questionmark]

I would not like to be a client state of China when resource conflicts start to accellerate - been a Federal member of a cooperative body is very different from been a colonial subject state.

Britain's status as a client state of the USA hasn't really been an asset in the last few decades.

There is a world of difference between been a Federal member of a cooperative body with full say in its decision making processes, and been an isolated state who needs to align themselves with a superpower with no say in their policy decisions.

Br Cornelius

And when giving in by following the leader at the end got stood up in the rain where the leader leaves without as much as consulting you. See Afghanistan.

[Black Red Devil]

Next time when it comes the Brits, French, Prussians and Italians will be on the same side tied together by the EU Constituiton.

I predict the EU will win even if its against the US, Russia or China.

Alone each state wont get far but together we are collectively more powerful than China, Russia and the US right now nevermind in the future.

The EU is definitely going to be a force to be reckoned with in future and possibly, the next superpower to rule the world IMO. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to achieve the status of "superpower" through military conquests. In fact, wars are expensive, something the USA is finally coming to terms with and which has reduced their economy to shreds.

But back to the EU. Obviously the integration of so many cultures into a single nation can be seen as an obstacle to the success of this project. After all, Europeans have been at each others throats, through wars, since the dawn of time. Hard to accept a nation of people as part of your own when you've grown up to despise or dislike them for something that happened 70 years or centuries ago. It may take a few generations of living as one before facts of the past become insignificant.

But it's not only about integration is it? It's mainly about stability and if the Union can overcome the current economical crisis in countries such as Greece, Portugal etc. I don't think they have a choice but to continue with the project and fix the bugs. The modus operandi has been set and there is no turning back.

Failure of the EU will not only lead to its disintegration as a project, but also destroy most of Europe's economy individually and re-enforce China's position as a world leader. This could also open the door to Russia and re-invigorate their influence on Eastern Europeans again.

Economically, where does the US sit in all of this? I think they'll be fending off for themselves in the next decade or so, or at least until they've recovered some of those trillions they owe in foreign debt.

[stevewinn]

the european union will never be a superpower. in any shape or form, the next superpower is China - they have it all. strong leadership. the numbers of people needed. plus the old attitude of "can do it" and "dont give a ****"

Edited July 9, 2011 by stevewinn

[Spark Plug]

the european union will never be a superpower. in any shape or form, the next superpower is China - they have it all. strong leadership. the numbers of people needed. plus the old attitude of "can do it" and "dont give a ****"

The combined EU population is quite large and unlike China we are all already industrialised and advanced.

Our combined GDP is larger than the US's and are combined military forces outnumber Chinas.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Spark Plug

[Black Red Devil]

China's success is fragile and only temporary IMO but it's probably been the only thing that's saved them from another Tianamen Square revolution. They have over 200 million people living under the poverty line ($1.25 a day by World Bank, IMF and UN standards) and furthermore, almost 500 million live on less than $2 a day.

They have the highest levels of pollution in the world and recently the Chinese Govt was forced to slow down their industry production because of the effect this was having on the environment. It would cost them an enormity to clean up their industry.

If the EU falls China would become even more so the dominant economical power but only if they can keep on paying their workers a bowl of rice a day.

Edited July 10, 2011 by BlackRedLittleDevil