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"What has the EU done for Us?"


Space Commander Travis
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Again? lol

Its never been a superpower its only existed since 1999.

the brits have been.

the french have been,

the spanish have been.

but as a hole they havent.

looking from the outside i would say the eu has given your money to someone else like greece.

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Message to the brits:

"Ask not what the EU can do for You, ask what You can do for the EU"

what like p*** away my hard earned tax ££s <_<<_<<_<

Edited by maca02
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Well, if you want to be a Russian or Chinese colony please be our guest. But don't hold it against the rest of Europe if they plan to do something against it.

Well, If you want to play the game of Great Power Politics pleae go ahead and be my guest. But please don't automatically assume that everyone wants to go along with the USE's desire to be a Global Power, and please, don't insist on dragging everyone into the consequences. Hasn't the lesson of what the consequences were from people with similar ambitions in the past [i'm sure I don't have to name a few] permeated the seat of power?

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Again? lol

Its never been a superpower its only existed since 1999.

Again? There's been plenty of examples of one European country or another wanting to be a Global Superpower in the past, surely. I'm sure I don't need to spell out a few. If one was conspiratorially minded, one might imagine that this was the EU's ambition, having gathered together individual states and bound them closer together economically and politically, so that the power is more and more centralised. This is a process rather reminiscent of Otto von Bismarck's approach; gather together independent states into a superpower with the aim of altering the balance of power and challenging the great powers of the day.

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Well, If you want to play the game of Great Power Politics pleae go ahead and be my guest. But please don't automatically assume that everyone wants to go along with the USE's desire to be a Global Power, and please, don't insist on dragging everyone into the consequences. Hasn't the lesson of what the consequences were from people with similar ambitions in the past [i'm sure I don't have to name a few] permeated the seat of power?

Its a cooperative grouping of nations designed to make a strong economic block and to avoid European conflict.

I think it has been rather successful on both counts.

If it wasn't good for the Brit's then the conservatives would have withdrawn the country long ago - they are not stupid (even though they often give that impression :lol: )

Its not very helpful in general to characterise the small periphery countries as mickey mouse states, when most have them have only just emerged from colonial interference of their bigger neighbours. The EU has acted to level the playing field somewhat and prevent larger countries from taking direct advantage of little countries (by invasion). Such a sad lack of understanding of history from an ex-colonial perp.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Guest
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Its a cooperative grouping of nations designed to make a strong economic block and to avoid European conflict.

I think it has been rather successful on both counts.

If it wasn't good for the Brit's then the conservatives would have withdrawn the country long ago - they are not stupid (even though they often give that impression :lol: )

Br Cornelius

Believe you me, I'm all in favour of that. Only it does seem to be getting ambitions above that, of becoming a Great power, as we have seen above. That would seem, from historical precedent, to lead to just the opposite result to avoiding conflict. Perhaps we are seeing that in Libya currently. That is my concern. And the viability of a common currency for widely differing kinds of economies, and the power that the Euro gives the EU central government over the independence of individual countries. Free trade and freedom of movement, believe me, I am all in favour of.

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the brits have been.

the french have been,

the spanish have been.

but as a hole they havent.

looking from the outside i would say the eu has given your money to someone else like greece.

All 3 have been more magnificent than the US.

The US was great in the 1950s and its been in decline ever since. Your top achievements are splitting the atom and landing on the moon but neither have revolutionised civilization like some of the others have.

The British Empire in the 1920s covered 1/4 of the globe and had over a billion people under it. Back then that over a 1/3 of the planets population. We created classical mechanics, electronics, industry etc etc etc. We surpassed Rome and no other nation ever has.

The French were doing kinda well intill the Brits annexed their share of North America. Still they have great history such as creating the first Holy Roman Empire. They have had more great leaders than Britain such as Napoleon and Joan of Arc. I bet if they were on the island instead they would have gone just as far.

The Spanish did most of the Americas and are better at football.

Germany (Holy Roman Empire) has had a lot of top scientists and philosphers. They have had large empires and have produced great leaders of such magnitude one came close to conquering the entire planet.

The Romans, Vikings and Greeks speak for themselves.

The US hasnt surpassed any of them. Its a superpower but hasnt a long list of achievements to define it as a great nation. By my estimates it has at most 20 years left before its out and I suspect it may be as little as 2 due to their debt.

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Again? There's been plenty of examples of one European country or another wanting to be a Global Superpower in the past, surely. I'm sure I don't need to spell out a few. If one was conspiratorially minded, one might imagine that this was the EU's ambition, having gathered together individual states and bound them closer together economically and politically, so that the power is more and more centralised. This is a process rather reminiscent of Otto von Bismarck's approach; gather together independent states into a superpower with the aim of altering the balance of power and challenging the great powers of the day.

I meant the EU has only existed since 1999.

I hate the EU as I'm British. I havent made my mind up yet if I would suddenly start to love it. Maybe if it went and carved out a vast empire I could get used to Britain being part of it. Of course we'd have to knock out the US and China though to claim first spot.

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If you are big and ethical then at some stage its very difficult to turn a blind eye to oppression in your neighbours. I generally am not in favour of foreign adventuring - but Gadaffi is one mad b****** and would happily kill half the country to hang onto power. Leave him be ? I say not.

The EU has shown extreme resistance in becoming a military state realising that the real battles are all economic these days.

A difficult and interesting project overall - with no clear hint that it will work out well in the end. I suspect the reality of current resource trends will ultimately lead to the break up of all the major transnational states (EU,USA,China,India) as they only really work in an era of cheap oil.To me the future looks more likely to be made up of smaller sovereign states with transnational trade fading as a major global factor.

Br Cornelius

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The EU is an idea in anti-nationalism whose time has come, but naturally there is significant inertia against this idea by those who choose nationalism over the unprejudiced notion that all people are on this planet together, and segregation by 'nation' only divides those peolpe against one another.

I expect the concept of (universal) federalism will take many decades - perhaps even a century or two - to attain the level of stability that nationalism has attained over the millenia it has been our effective means of governance. The issue of currency only exacerbates the resistance to embracing a (global) culture - as currency is seen as one of the hallmarks of a nation, a part of the national identity.

Nationalism is no longer the best solution for our (humanity's) continued development on this planet.

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Wrong, the reason was the lack of money.

Right, because they lacked the initiative to procure it.

That is why all those railroads in the US were built by Irish and cheap labor used to come to American shores from there until somebody supplied the means to develop the country instead of exploiting the Irish.

Half-truth.

Labor Shortage

In early 1865 the Central Pacific had work enough for 4,000 men. Yet contractor Charles Crocker barely managed to hold onto 800 laborers at any given time. Most of the early workers were Irish immigrants. Railroad work was hard, and management was chaotic, leading to a high attrition rate. The Central Pacific management puzzled over how it could attract and retain a work force up to the enormous task. In keeping with prejudices of the day, some Central Pacific officials believed that Irishmen were inclined to spend their wages on liquor, and that the Chinese were also unreliable. Yet, due to the critical shortage, Crocker suggested that reconsideration be given to hiring Chinese. He encountered strong prejudice from foreman James Harvey Strobridge.

Impressive Workers

Strobridge's attitude changed when a group of Irish laborers agitated over wages. Crocker told Strobridge to recruit some Chinese in their place. Instantly, the Irishmen abandoned their dispute. Sensing at least that fear of competition might motivate his men, Strobridge grudgingly agreed to hire 50 Chinese men as wagon-fillers. Their work ethic impressed him, and he hired more Chinese workers for more difficult tasks. Soon, labor recruiters were scouring California, and Crocker hired companies to advertise the work in China. The number of Chinese workers on CP payrolls began increasing by the shipload. Several thousand Chinese men had signed on by the end of that year; the number rose to a high of 12,000 in 1868, comprising at least 80% of the Central Pacific workforce. "Wherever we put them, we found them good," Crocker recalled, "and they worked themselves into our favor to such an extent that if we found we were in a hurry for a job of work, it was better to put Chinese on at once."

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the EU are not even living in the same world as us.

£100bn EU budget rise

Plans for the European Union's budget to be increased by £100bn were condemned by both the right and left in the UK.

The European Commission has proposed the budget increase for the seven-year period 2014-20. The plans would require Britain to pay an extra £1bn, which in today's climate of austerity was regarded by politicians in the UK as inappropriate.

Ed Balls, the shadow Chancellor, was among those to criticise the plans. "These proposals are ill-judged, out of touch and cannot be supported," he said.

His colleague Douglas Alexander, the shadow Foreign Secretary, was equally scathing. He said: "At a time when Britain and other countries have to make some tough decisions on public spending, this significant rise proposed by the EU commission will strike people as inappropriate and misguided. The European Commission should be focused on finding savings and targeting spending on the most crucial areas."

Among the Tories to slate the financial plans was MP Philip Davies, who said of the commission's officials: "It's quite clear they're living in fantasy land. The sooner we get out of this wretched organisation the better because they are bleeding us dry."

But Jose Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, wants countries such as the UK to give more to poorer Eastern European countries and said: "Our offer is reasonable, realistic, credible."

**** off.

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Hello? Hello? Speak up at the back! Blair? Clarke? Mandelson? Heseltine? Clegg? Huhne? Surely one of you could put your hand up? Well done, Alexander! Thank you for accepting that you were wrong all along about Britain joining the euro. Perhaps you could have a word with the other boys afterwards?

It was the most important political and economic decision that Britain has faced in the past two decades. And, unlike most such decisions, the evidence is not remotely equivocal. It is painfully clear now that for Britain to have joined the euro would have been a disaster.

Some of us said so at the time. It's not as if we in the "no" campaign didn't warn of economic shocks that would hit some countries more than others, of interest rates too low for some and too high for others, of the need for huge transfers of money from the rich states to the poor ones, which the rich voters wouldn't like.

The one that always annoyed me most was that it was "inevitable". Tony Blair constantly used this, as if God had whispered the future in his ear. "Who says?" was my mutinous response. It didn't have to be inevitable. We could simply choose not to join. As – wisely, but no thanks to Blair – we did.

Full article :- http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mary-ann-sieghart/mary-ann-sieghart-where-have-all-the-europhiles-gone-2306302.html

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What is most tragic about the state of the Euro is that the periphery countries such as Ireland and Iceland and Portugal could have and should have seen the inevitable crash coming down the tracks. They had other fiscal instruments to control speculation bubbles but instead they chose to ride the dragon until it turned round and ate them. This was a stupid dereliction of duty on their parts. Blame should be placed firmly where it belongs - with the corrupt and incompetent politicians who bought the free market deregulation fantasy and sold out their countries for a quick buck.

If you look to how Germany and France have managed their economies you will see that these things are avoidable.

Br Cornelius

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What is most tragic about the state of the Euro is that the periphery countries such as Ireland and Iceland and Portugal could have and should have seen the inevitable crash coming down the tracks. They had other fiscal instruments to control speculation bubbles but instead they chose to ride the dragon until it turned round and ate them. This was a stupid dereliction of duty on their parts. Blame should be placed firmly where it belongs - with the corrupt and incompetent politicians who bought the free market deregulation fantasy and sold out their countries for a quick buck.

If you look to how Germany and France have managed their economies you will see that these things are avoidable.

Br Cornelius

To be honest, the richer nation members - such as France and Germany - should have been just as aware of what the poorer nations - such as Ireland, Portugal, etc - would do when given the freedom to spend as a richer nation would.

The idea of a European Union is/was a worthy one. The implementation of that idea was woefully inadequate.

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To be honest, the richer nation members - such as France and Germany - should have been just as aware of what the poorer nations - such as Ireland, Portugal, etc - would do when given the freedom to spend as a richer nation would.

The idea of a European Union is/was a worthy one. The implementation of that idea was woefully inadequate.

We never should forge that the introduction of the Euro was one of those funny trans-European deals. It was introduced prematurely as exchange of two governments agreeing to the German reunification. Normally it would have been introduced at least ten years later.

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We never should forge that the introduction of the Euro was one of those funny trans-European deals. It was introduced prematurely as exchange of two governments agreeing to the German reunification. Normally it would have been introduced at least ten years later.

It was a mistake which threatens to sink the EU - sad outcome.

Br Cornelius

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It was a mistake which threatens to sink the EU - sad outcome.

Br Cornelius

I doubt it. It will make it a little more difficult, but it won't sink. Some plans like Germany without national debt by 2021 will not be met and the 60% of GDP max debt by 2016 will not be met either. But mostly it will work because that is the only chance they have. All 17.

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The EU tried to be something between an alliance and a nation, and it failed. It tried to fill a niche that never existed.

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The EU tried to be something between an alliance and a nation, and it failed. It tried to fill a niche that never existed.

Quite wrong, read up on the German Zollverein.

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I doubt it. It will make it a little more difficult, but it won't sink. Some plans like Germany without national debt by 2021 will not be met and the 60% of GDP max debt by 2016 will not be met either. But mostly it will work because that is the only chance they have. All 17.

Yeah I agree. In fact the creation of the European Union adheres partially to the ultimate foundation of a New World Order and true globalization which, amidst all the conspiracy theories, has constructive concepts based on, the elimination of imperialism and wars, preventing rich economies from dictating wealth, poverty and/or depression to the rest of the world, reducing the hegemony of coalitions and alliances aimed at preventing an unequal balance of power and finally the introduction of a world government based on a polyarchy model with a certain level of control over powerful institutions such as the World Bank and IMF, through initiatives such as the Bretton Woods Project.

Unfortunately there will be blood, pain and tears on the way there.

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Quite wrong, read up on the German Zollverein.

The Zollverein was almost entirely German, it was hardly the multi-national organization that the EU attempts to be. It also ended with the German Empire in 1871, not much more than 50 years after its creation. The Zollverein actually proves my point more than anything, governments like that don't survive long, they eventually break up or become nations.

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The Zollverein was almost entirely German, it was hardly the multi-national organization that the EU attempts to be. It also ended with the German Empire in 1871, not much more than 50 years after its creation. The Zollverein actually proves my point more than anything, governments like that don't survive long, they eventually break up or become nations.

Germany was multinational, in fact some parts of the German speaking areas still are separate countries(I.e Austria, Lichtenstein) or part of other countries (i.e. Switzerland. Luxembourg, Denmark, France, Italy). Prussia in 1860 had as much in common with Bavaria as Germany in 2011 has with Spain....so your point is?

The Zollverein does not confirm your blood and soil prejudice. It denies it. Countries are not blood and race bounds but common interest of its citizens that outweigh the common disadvantages by their union.

The idea behind the EU, since day one (at least according to the Sunday speeches) is the integration of a block of European countries. And nothing survives longer than being the common interest of the people of an area. I don;t see that the common interest that created the EU has gone away.

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What is most tragic about the state of the Euro is that the periphery countries such as Ireland and Iceland and Portugal could have and should have seen the inevitable crash coming down the tracks. They had other fiscal instruments to control speculation bubbles but instead they chose to ride the dragon until it turned round and ate them. This was a stupid dereliction of duty on their parts. Blame should be placed firmly where it belongs - with the corrupt and incompetent politicians who bought the free market deregulation fantasy and sold out their countries for a quick buck.

If you look to how Germany and France have managed their economies you will see that these things are avoidable.

Br Cornelius

Although Iceland hasn't adopted the Euro and isn't even a member of the EU.

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It was a mistake which threatens to sink the EU - sad outcome.Br Cornelius

No, it would be a bloody marvellous outcome. just think saving millions of people from the future consequences of a European superstate. (you as an avid supporter will be asking the question what future consequences?)

Back in 1999 with the launch of the Euro the future consequences back then are what we are witnessing now. in such places as Greece etc... Portugal are now on the verge with its debt downgrade to 'junk' hopefully Portugal need another bailout, Spain will wobble, by this stage we'll be six months down the line and the problem with Greece will reappear - with more bailout money needed. Spain will then be cap in hand. the EU will be without money. violence will breakout across Europe. then just watch what happens in elections in Europe, politically europe will lurch to the right. :w00t:

am just going to sit back and enjoy it, because i know at whose feet the blame will lay. the people the ilk of Questionmark BR Ape, etc... :o

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