Pillars of the Kingdom

[ManApart]

Within Christian teachings, I remember learning about what I called the Pillars of the Kingdom. 2 Corinthians 13:13, Faith, Hope, and Love. For Bible study, I broke down each one and researched how each one played their role in the stories of the Bible.

As an adult, those three attributes. or some would say virtues, have always been in my inner, or core, beliefs; establishing them and teaching them. They really are a pinnacle of Christian living, as well as living in general no matter the religion.

I also study various other religions and belief systems, and came across something within the Taoist scriptures.

Tao Te Ching 67-

I have just three things to teach:

simplicity, patience, compassion.

These three are your greatest treasures.

Simple in actions and in thoughts,

you return to the source of being.

Patient with both friends and enemies,

you accord with the way things are.

Compassionate toward yourself,

you reconcile all beings in the world.

I broke down the translations within the Chinese, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, and see that although from different cultures, it seems those enlightened ones stressed those three pillars. It seems there is a power when these three virtues come together.

Christianity says Faith, Taoism says Simplicity.

Christianity says Hope, Taoism says Patience.

Christianity says Love, Taoism says Compassion.

How are these alike? How are they different? Are these really core principles that we as civilized beings should have? How important are these?

[libstaK]

Christianity says Faith, Taoism says Simplicity.

Christianity says Hope, Taoism says Patience.

Christianity says Love, Taoism says Compassion

I really love this, I see no real difference in the meanings.

Faith requires us to allow things to be as they are to suspend our material efforts and leave the answers and solutions to come naturally and inevitably through the basic perfection of the Law.

Simplicity says the same thing - we complicate our problems when we try and manipulate a solution to them by planning convoluted actions and ploys. Live and abide simply and problems become irrelevant, if you have food, shelter and clothing then you have all you need anything else is just "added" to this and a blessing which comes of its own accord not through chasing and striving.

Hope asks you to be patient. As with faith the perfection of the Law brings all things forth in their natural order and at the correct time for the best result, when we try to force things or chase things we fight against the tide, the currents of the river of life and the effort comes at a cost, it is a continuous fruitless battle against the reality of the situation you are in, it is always better to flow with the current of life and enjoy the scenery - you don't know what you are missing in the midst of your "struggles" - experience has taught me the results of struggle and the results of patience are pretty much the same - all things change it can neither rain all the time nor can the sun shine 24 hours a day every day.

True love is absolute compassion there are no conditions if buts or wherefores in this, it is an absolute - where there is a doubt or judgement these do not exist in us yet that's all.

[ManApart]

Christianity says Faith, Taoism says Simplicity.

Christianity says Hope, Taoism says Patience.

Christianity says Love, Taoism says Compassion

I really love this, I see no real difference in the meanings.

I thought it was a great example of those Universal truths that many experience then try to share by the paradigm of their culture.

I saw Simplicity and Faith as a moral standard of trust. A reliance on inner truths and certainties that resonate within the soul. Innocent in trust, unwavering in belief, and open in receptiveness to the Divine Nature.

I saw Patience and Hope as a moral standard of endurance. The ability to have a continual passion, or long-suffering, which is a sacrifice. Being able to bear and have an inner-fortitude. The Spirit is inexhaustible , can remain, and undergo trials with a cheerful and hopeful perseverance. Endurance is fueled by an absolute expectation, and one anticipates with pleasure, watching with assurance and confidence.

I saw Compassion and Love as a moral standard of affection. It covers a wide spectrum from consideration and mindfulness, to preference and inclination, to commiseration and mercy, to abundant delight, to passion of sensuality which causes on to cling or join to what gives nourishment, and even to sacrifice one's existence for another's. It is cherishing the source of being, holding it dear. Sympathy, and ultimately empathy; it is personal and intimate.

Simplicity allows a return to the origin and faith integrates.

Patience allows accordance and Hope directs.

Compassion allows reconciliation and Love binds.

[Bluefinger]

Within Christian teachings, I remember learning about what I called the Pillars of the Kingdom. 2 Corinthians 13:13, Faith, Hope, and Love. For Bible study, I broke down each one and researched how each one played their role in the stories of the Bible.

As an adult, those three attributes. or some would say virtues, have always been in my inner, or core, beliefs; establishing them and teaching them. They really are a pinnacle of Christian living, as well as living in general no matter the religion.

I also study various other religions and belief systems, and came across something within the Taoist scriptures.

Tao Te Ching 67-

I have just three things to teach:

simplicity, patience, compassion.

These three are your greatest treasures.

Simple in actions and in thoughts,

you return to the source of being.

Patient with both friends and enemies,

you accord with the way things are.

Compassionate toward yourself,

you reconcile all beings in the world.

I broke down the translations within the Chinese, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, and see that although from different cultures, it seems those enlightened ones stressed those three pillars. It seems there is a power when these three virtues come together.

Christianity says Faith, Taoism says Simplicity.

Christianity says Hope, Taoism says Patience.

Christianity says Love, Taoism says Compassion.

How are these alike? How are they different? Are these really core principles that we as civilized beings should have? How important are these?

Faith is the substance of things hope for, the evidence of things not seen. Simplicity is really just losing concern for needless worry. Not the same thing exactly, though I see how you could draw a connection. IF a person has enough faith, then they can discard all desire of living a lifestyle of wealth, sell their possessions, and contribute to society.

Now faith is substance of things hoped for. So hope would be connected with ambition and promise. Patience helps us hold on to that hope, but is not the substance of hope, as faith is. Again, they are connected, but not the same.

Love and compassion are basically the same IF the term for love is understood not as family love or romantic love, but of brotherly, self-giving love. Compassion is a combination of words that mean to 'suffer without others'; Com stemming from Community and Passion meaning 'suffering.' Brotherly love is not merely secluded to just acts of compassion but is more far-reaching than that. It is with this kind of love that Christ told us to love our enemies. Again, related, but not the same.

Thanks for the interesting discussion! I wonder what the Tao meant by "compassionate toward oneself"?

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

whenever dealing with the philosophy underpinning moral conduct (now there's an unruly sentence) with the year sevens, I stress the importance of Faith, Hope and Charity/Compassion in my own moral framework - I believe in God, I believe in Man and I believe I can help.

[Paracelse]

whenever dealing with the philosophy underpinning moral conduct (now there's an unruly sentence) with the year sevens, I stress the importance of Faith, Hope and Charity/Compassion in my own moral framework - I believe in God, I believe in Man and I believe I can help.

The only difference, only those who listen to the call of JC are admitted in the kingdom, whereas in Tao, all those who applied the rules are regardless of their personal beliefs.

[ManApart]

Faith is the substance of things hope for, the evidence of things not seen. Simplicity is really just losing concern for needless worry. Not the same thing exactly, though I see how you could draw a connection. IF a person has enough faith, then they can discard all desire of living a lifestyle of wealth, sell their possessions, and contribute to society.

Now faith is substance of things hoped for. So hope would be connected with ambition and promise. Patience helps us hold on to that hope, but is not the substance of hope, as faith is. Again, they are connected, but not the same.

Love and compassion are basically the same IF the term for love is understood not as family love or romantic love, but of brotherly, self-giving love. Compassion is a combination of words that mean to 'suffer without others'; Com stemming from Community and Passion meaning 'suffering.' Brotherly love is not merely secluded to just acts of compassion but is more far-reaching than that. It is with this kind of love that Christ told us to love our enemies. Again, related, but not the same.

Thanks for the interesting discussion! I wonder what the Tao meant by "compassionate toward oneself"?

Being compassionate to oneself really embodies knowing oneself. Chapter 33 in the Tao Te Ching says,

"Those who know others are intelligent;

those who know themselves are truly wise.

Those who master others are strong;

those who master themselves have true power.

Those who know they have enough are truly wealthy.

Those who persist will reach their goal.

Those who keep their course have a strong will.

Those who embrace death will not perish,

but have life everlasting."

Christian scripture expresses how we should love others as we love our self. And the standard is by knowing the Father's love for us, correct? Christian scripture says that we can not know the depth of God's love , but we can realize, acknowledge, and experience it. The more one understands God's love, the more compassion he has towards others. Love...compassion, sympathy,, and even empathy.

Mother Teresa said that no one has experienced true love until it hurts. When you can have such empathy for a stranger, that your heart hurts in compassion. She says this is true love, when it hurts.

To have compassion for myself is to know and understand myself. My strengths and weaknesses, and know what is in accordance with what is highest, and realize that this body is a vessel for our true nature. I have respect for myself, and ensure that I strive to reach that potential within.

It is comes down to love..." And now abideth faith, hope, and charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. " - 1 Corinthians 13:13

Imagine the possibilities if everyone actually loved and respected themselves......

Edited July 6, 2011 by ManApart

[ManApart]

The only difference, only those who listen to the call of JC are admitted in the kingdom, whereas in Tao, all those who applied the rules are regardless of their personal beliefs.

You really have to examine what happens to the individual. When one comes to Christ, it is a relinquishment and understanding that what we have been doing is not working. We give up, we make up our minds. It is an attitude, and a process. We start creating new patterns and behaviors, striving to achieve a desired outcome. As time continues in our devotion, a change begins to happen. There is a switch in " spiritual polarity".

The walk is an imitation of the walk of Jesus. We attempt to walk a holy or divine walk based on the characteristics and attributes of the perceived Divine Nature.

The Tao does the same. Tao meaning Way. The Chinese character for Tao is actually a combination of two characters. One has it's origins with "foot", and the other "mind". Pretty much, it conveys that if you get your mind right, then the path or journey will be right. The Way starts with the mind. The original Tao, before religion changed it, did not even give God a name. They felt that since God is not man, and man has problems grasping the fullness of the Divine, there is no point in trying to make God like man to relate, but rather focus on the Nature of the Divine; the characteristics and attributes of the Nature, and imitate that.

Both go through the same journey and mature mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, just by different means. Christians have the imagery of Jesus Christ to relate to, Taoism observes the Nature of Christ in all of Creation.

Christ told the officials that the Kingdom Of God was within them, and also Jesus mentions that our potential is great, the things He did, we can do also and greater. Jesus stresses to pray and meditate...turn inwards. Taoist scriptures instruct the same process, just without a religious image.

[ManApart]

This is the reason for this topic, to see past the religious image of the characteristics and attributes we try to instill as core principles. How important is Faith, Hope, and Love? All cultures embrace them as virtues.....

Edited July 6, 2011 by ManApart

[Paracelse]

You really have to examine what happens to the individual. When one comes to Christ, it is a relinquishment and understanding that what we have been doing is not working. We give up, we make up our minds. It is an attitude, and a process. We start creating new patterns and behaviors, striving to achieve a desired outcome. As time continues in our devotion, a change begins to happen. There is a switch in " spiritual polarity".

The walk is an imitation of the walk of Jesus. We attempt to walk a holy or divine walk based on the characteristics and attributes of the perceived Divine Nature.

The Tao does the same. Tao meaning Way. The Chinese character for Tao is actually a combination of two characters. One has it's origins with "foot", and the other "mind". Pretty much, it conveys that if you get your mind right, then the path or journey will be right. The Way starts with the mind. The original Tao, before religion changed it, did not even give God a name. They felt that since God is not man, and man has problems grasping the fullness of the Divine, there is no point in trying to make God like man to relate, but rather focus on the Nature of the Divine; the characteristics and attributes of the Nature, and imitate that.

Both go through the same journey and mature mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, just by different means. Christians have the imagery of Jesus Christ to relate to, Taoism observes the Nature of Christ in all of Creation.

Christ told the officials that the Kingdom Of God was within them, and also Jesus mentions that our potential is great, the things He did, we can do also and greater. Jesus stresses to pray and meditate...turn inwards. Taoist scriptures instruct the same process, just without a religious image.

I was raised catholic so I learned a little about JC. I never finished the hoopla, I ran away from the church I was to receive the ultimate right to become adult, don't really remember how it's called (methink it was confirmation but I would bet my life on it).

Anyhow for refusing to finish my catechism, I received a serious beating by my parents (my butt still bleeds just thinking about it) I was forced to kneel on gravel with bare knees for 3 hours, didn't have any dessert for a month, didn't go on vacation that year (was forced to stay home with my grand-mother) didn't get allowance for a year, was called all sorts of name (even today mother tells her friends "he's an atheist you know" in that tone that makes you feel abnormal) some Jesuits were called to convince me to go back and then I was send to a catholic high school were the dean tried his hand on my thingy (I told him Dad worked in a mine and if I told him where the dude's hand was he wouldn't make it to the end of year).

I guess some people have different JC experience, but you see without dogma no one feels forced to behave one way or another.

Since then I studied the Gnostic Gospels, the Pistis Sophia the Book of Q, and the JC that appears in those books is not quit the same as the one in synoptic Gospels.

[ManApart]

I was raised catholic so I learned a little about JC. I never finished the hoopla, I ran away from the church I was to receive the ultimate right to become adult, don't really remember how it's called (methink it was confirmation but I would bet my life on it).

Anyhow for refusing to finish my catechism, I received a serious beating by my parents (my butt still bleeds just thinking about it) I was forced to kneel on gravel with bare knees for 3 hours, didn't have any dessert for a month, didn't go on vacation that year (was forced to stay home with my grand-mother) didn't get allowance for a year, was called all sorts of name (even today mother tells her friends "he's an atheist you know" in that tone that makes you feel abnormal) some Jesuits were called to convince me to go back and then I was send to a catholic high school were the dean tried his hand on my thingy (I told him Dad worked in a mine and if I told him where the dude's hand was he wouldn't make it to the end of year).

I guess some people have different JC experience, but you see without dogma no one feels forced to behave one way or another.

Since then I studied the Gnostic Gospels, the Pistis Sophia the Book of Q, and the JC that appears in those books is not quit the same as the one in synoptic Gospels.

Yeah, I do not see the Faith, Hope, and Love in forced dogmatic rituals. That type of punishment has nothing to do with enlightened teachings. That is man preforming self-desired actions. Some may use Proverbs to stress child correction, but take it to the level of abuse.

[Paracelse]

Yeah, I do not see the Faith, Hope, and Love in forced dogmatic rituals. That type of punishment has nothing to do with enlightened teachings. That is man preforming self-desired actions. Some may use Proverbs to stress child correction, but take it to the level of abuse.

I'm yet to see any enlighten teaching in JC.

[ManApart]

I'm yet to see any enlighten teaching in JC.

I understand that perspective. The versions we have today, attempting to convey the teachings, are very contorted, manipulated, and exaggerated. Many hands have altered scripture for their own personal interests.

Even in the beginning of the writing of the Synoptic Gospels, the authors did not attempt to reproduce the very words of Jesus, for they rarely do not. We have apostolic memory; the apostles and disciples expressing the mind of Jesus, by their own words.

There was first teachings from the paradigm of the Jewish culture, then as the Gentile/ Christian church was established, they felt that the scriptures were no longer for the Jews, but for the Christians. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (177-195 A.D.) told the Jewish people, " The scriptures are not yours, but ours!" He claimed the Jews were disinherited. Tertullian and even Eusebius all said the same.

So the teachings from the perspective of the culture had an attempted removal, and then the scriptures were changed to fit the ideas and theories of the church.

Getting to the core of the teachings of Christ is hard sometimes, but if one understands the characteristics and attributes of the Divine Nature, expressed and seen in the world's belief systems, well used discernment can reveal enlightened teachings...but unfortunately, I do understand, the Judeo-Christian Bible has been changed so much...one really has to go back to the origins to get the true context.

[Ciss]

Faith is the substance of things hope for, the evidence of things not seen. Simplicity is really just losing concern for needless worry. Not the same thing exactly, though I see how you could draw a connection. IF a person has enough faith, then they can discard all desire of living a lifestyle of wealth, sell their possessions, and contribute to society.

Now faith is substance of things hoped for. So hope would be connected with ambition and promise. Patience helps us hold on to that hope, but is not the substance of hope, as faith is. Again, they are connected, but not the same.

Love and compassion are basically the same IF the term for love is understood not as family love or romantic love, but of brotherly, self-giving love. Compassion is a combination of words that mean to 'suffer without others'; Com stemming from Community and Passion meaning 'suffering.' Brotherly love is not merely secluded to just acts of compassion but is more far-reaching than that. It is with this kind of love that Christ told us to love our enemies. Again, related, but not the same.

Thanks for the interesting discussion! I wonder what the Tao meant by "compassionate toward oneself"?

IF a person has enough faith, then they can discard all desire of living a lifestyle of wealth, sell their possessions, and contribute to society.

If one was to have faith why would they "sell their possessions"...Is it faith to face the reality that we own nothing, not even the bodies we reside in..if we did we would be able to keep it for how ever long we want and do with it what ever we please, I would think faith is to give no thought to "what I can gain when I share the fruits of this world" ...I already know I can own and gain nothing..

[ManApart]

IF a person has enough faith, then they can discard all desire of living a lifestyle of wealth, sell their possessions, and contribute to society.

If one was to have faith why would they "sell their possessions"...Is it faith to face the reality that we own nothing, not even the bodies we reside in..if we did we would be able to keep it for how ever long we want and do with it what ever we please, I would think faith is to give no thought to "what I can gain when I share the fruits of this world" ...I already know I can own and gain nothing..

IMO it is a matter of detachment. We can still have and enjoy aspects of life, but we realize that those materialistic things can, do, and will change. It's inevitable. So I detach myself from those things outside myself...I did not have to get rid of everything.

[Ciss]

IMO it is a matter of detachment. We can still have and enjoy aspects of life, but we realize that those materialistic things can, do, and will change. It's inevitable. So I detach myself from those things outside myself...I did not have to get rid of everything.

Detachment..yes! I've been poor and I've been rich, I prefer living and being! LOL! It's like a hand, when you are busy trying to own, forever grasping and clutching at the things we think we need or things people tell us we need, our hand is closed and our minds are focused and tunneled in set thoughts...it takes an open and empty hand to always be ready to receive everything! Give no thought to it..

[ManApart]

Detachment..yes! I've been poor and I've been rich, I prefer living and being! LOL! It's like a hand, when you are busy trying to own, forever grasping and clutching at the things we think we need or things people tell us we need, our hand is closed and our minds are focused and tunneled in set thoughts...it takes an open and empty hand to always be ready to receive everything! Give no thought to it..

The word detachment says it all...it is strange how many can not grasp that what is around them will be gone. You said you prefer living and being. that reminds me of a man named Martin Heidegger. He said that we are ignorant of the one thing that matters most, the Nature of Being. I love that and agree so much, because too many are so blind to what is within them; and even then, that potential is not really immediate.

Jesus' parables on the Kingdom of God/Heaven uses the mustard seed when speaking on faith. That analogy is great for application in much more. That mustard seed does not grow to become the largest herb/bush overnight...it takes time. Faith the same way; the process may have begun, but what we see as evidence of faith in our walk tends to manifest later, as it grows. Our potential is the same, we may understand and grasp it, but we have to allow it grow...we strive and put forth effort.

There is an Epicurean philosopher named Epictetus that speaks about detachment. If you ever get a chance, read the Discourses of Epictetus. He speaks on the idea that we have not control over those things outside ourselves, that we attach ourselves to. We can not make anyone say or do anything, and vice versa, no one can make you think, feel, act, do, or say anything. You allow it or deny it. So our true power and control is what is within us, our Governing Principle(thoughts, computation, reasoning, etc...), here is our authority.

We approach those things within, with caution because it is our responsibility. We approach those things outside ourselves with confidence....confidence that things outside of yourself are as they should, and you have control over yourself to navigate and compensate for your environment.

So it all goes back to ourselves....getting ourselves right within the heart. I believe these principles we see in the belief systems of the world can be considered characteristics and attributes of a greater Divine Nature; not that they are all positive with no negative, but an understanding of how both positive and negative are essential to the Universal Law of Balance, and when applied establish structure, integrity, and stability.

[Ciss]

The word detachment says it all...it is strange how many can not grasp that what is around them will be gone. You said you prefer living and being. that reminds me of a man named Martin Heidegger. He said that we are ignorant of the one thing that matters most, the Nature of Being. I love that and agree so much, because too many are so blind to what is within them; and even then, that potential is not really immediate.

Jesus' parables on the Kingdom of God/Heaven uses the mustard seed when speaking on faith. That analogy is great for application in much more. That mustard seed does not grow to become the largest herb/bush overnight...it takes time. Faith the same way; the process may have begun, but what we see as evidence of faith in our walk tends to manifest later, as it grows. Our potential is the same, we may understand and grasp it, but we have to allow it grow...we strive and put forth effort.

There is an Epicurean philosopher named Epictetus that speaks about detachment. If you ever get a chance, read the Discourses of Epictetus. He speaks on the idea that we have not control over those things outside ourselves, that we attach ourselves to. We can not make anyone say or do anything, and vice versa, no one can make you think, feel, act, do, or say anything. You allow it or deny it. So our true power and control is what is within us, our Governing Principle(thoughts, computation, reasoning, etc...), here is our authority.

We approach those things within, with caution because it is our responsibility. We approach those things outside ourselves with confidence....confidence that things outside of yourself are as they should, and you have control over yourself to navigate and compensate for your environment.

So it all goes back to ourselves....getting ourselves right within the heart. I believe these principles we see in the belief systems of the world can be considered characteristics and attributes of a greater Divine Nature; not that they are all positive with no negative, but an understanding of how both positive and negative are essential to the Universal Law of Balance, and when applied establish structure, integrity, and stability.

LOL! You are truly working me with all this most read literature! I've already book marked 'Discourses of Epictetus' on the classics archive..

Please forgive me but you wrote something that does not make sense to me.." but we have to allow it grow...we strive and put forth effort."

When you say allow and then strive..these are opposites..? Maybe I need to look up the definition of strive..

[ManApart]

LOL! You are truly working me with all this most read literature! I've already book marked 'Discourses of Epictetus' on the classics archive..

Please forgive me but you wrote something that does not make sense to me.." but we have to allow it grow...we strive and put forth effort."

When you say allow and then strive..these are opposites..? Maybe I need to look up the definition of strive..

That really is something...confirmation! I have the complete writings of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers with the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius at the end. I can't even begin to explain how much that book helped me.

With your question, I was referring to our inner potential. There is a saying that "purpose initiates design, and design processes constrain to meet the purpose" There is a purpose in our having this inner potential, and this purpose started with a desire. IMO that desire, purpose, and design is what we need to allow to grow; we are meant for greatness. We allow it to do what it is supposed to.

Now in this world...this society, we are bombarded daily, allowing our hearts to be weighed down by the cares and anxieties of the world...we lose sight of what we should and could be doing when it comes to our furtherance. So we strive...we put forth effort, and try. We apply ourselves daily, viewing the occurrences in our life as edifying and beneficial in one way our another...

We allow our potential to do what it is designed to do, and strive to develop it, being observant and receptive to those things which can be essential to our enlighenment.

When traveling down the river, we allow the current to do what it does, but put forth the effort to navigate it the best way possible...

The mustard seed may grow on it's own, thats it's design. But if we water it and put forth effort into it, it grows quicker, faster, and stronger......

Edited July 15, 2011 by ManApart