Awakening

[Mr Walker]

name='jugoso' timestamp='1312571411' post='4011752']

Another question I have:

Implicit to the concept of awakening is the prior state of being asleep (dormant). Is it possible for one to awaken if they do not realize they are sleeping?

Literally and in reality yes. People do this all the time. Less common is to know one self is asleep and have difficulty awakening.

And this alsos applies metaphysically or spiritually. One can awake or be awakended and only then become aware that, until the awakening, one was "asleep."

In other words do you think one must realize first that they are asleep before they awaken?

No. It is probably more common NOT to know one is asleep until one wakes up.

If you don´t know if your asleep, can you wake-up?

Absolutely. One can become conscious from a condition of unconsiousness. One can also come ot a heightened state of consciousness from a state of lesser, or semi, consciousness.

Do you realize?? (back to first post )

A common occurence in dreams is the false awakening. Often one's consciousness hovers between part awareness and full awareness. One knows one is dreaming and believes one has woken up, only to find one has not.

In the real waking world, one receives independent or external feed back/confirmation of consciousness, so this problem is not equivalent in the waking world.

But certainly it might be possible that a first spiritual awakening is not the end of the process, even if one believes it to be.

Many writers describe various levels of conscious awareness. A person can jump right to the highest level, or they might progress up wards in a series of mini awakenings or enlightenments

[Mr Walker]

name='momentsinlove' timestamp='1312576134' post='4011825']

I've intentionally omitted certain details on my last post, but I can tell you that your "awakening" will always be a suspect, as in "It was only a dream."

I respect ypur opinin whatever it is based on but tha tdoes not necessarily make it right orr mean tha tyour experinces are the same as mine.

Thing is, to conquer death, you only have to die. And yes, you really have to die to end all the doubting. This may sound like a riddle to you, but to a resurrected being who is in the process of awakening, this could be that light bulb for the "shift" to brighten up that cognitive mind to sync with one's undying essence. And voila, instant "awakening"!!!

This is hypothetical "religious" belief or potential. It might be true or it might be a heap of crock. Spiritual wakening and reaching the cosmic consciousness while alive on the other hand is a known, proven, and relatively 'common" fact of life. I am not a religious man or a believer. I dont believe or disbelieve, and so talk of what might or might happen after death is personally meaningless. Science, which i trust, indicates that consciousness is a product of biology and that in humans it mostly originates in our evolved brains. Science indicates that once the organic brain dies, consciousness ceases. I dont know what happens after that. I t doesnt worry me, although the many possibilities are interesting.

Take Jim Carey for example: he's so eager to have the experience that his mind deluded itself. Wishful thinking is very persuasive, but alas, it's just in the mind. It's missing the other half. And no, it has nothing to do with the way you see the world, but call it as you will; however, to (real) "awakened" people, your dream and hope of "awakening" is just that. A dream. As I also said, an "awakened" being is still not free. In a nutshell, "awakening" is what you make of it. The good thing about it is you don't have to do anything, if you can afford it, if your wife and children could put up with whatever it is you do after "awakening." Some "awakened" beings are actually a pain in the ass. Long story, and many people are being mislead. I'll write more later, I'm still waking up.

I know what awakening is like, and the transformation it affords to living people.

I dont know, and dont believe anyone knows, what happens after death. Logic suggests one ceases to exist. And I am free. One of the hardest self realisations a person can come to is just how free they are. This understanding comes with awakening. It would not matter if my consciousness was housed in a corporeal body or in a non corporeal one.

Freedom exists as a product of self awareness, not in the nature of our physical body. My mind is free to travel the universe , to pass through planets, stars and space time portals, to link with other consciousnesses to travel into the past and to explore a mutitude of potential futures. I can not be hurt harmed or threatened by any one or anything, once i realise that my I is not my physical body but my self aware sapience.

Like all living things, that consciousness can be destroyed, but one can learn not to fear, fear. And to a consciousness, fear is the only concern. It is a false concern, but it can take a while to learn that.

Just as one can banish fear from ones dreams, ( I have not had a nightmare or a dream involving fear for nearly 50 years, since i learned how to control dreams) one can banish fear and all negative emotions from the conscious "I", where one lives during the waking hours.

[Mr Walker]

name='momentsinlove' timestamp='1312607605' post='4012209']

[Awakening is a physical reality of the here and now.]

Yes, and? Without the body, there's no "awakening." Without the element of death, there is also no "awakening."

Without the body, and the mind attached to the body, there can be no awakening. That is a physical fact, as far as present science demonstrates.

Resurrection (not spiritual awakening) is a theortical /potential possibilty after death It is very highly unlikely. And physical resurrection and restoration of one's consciousness, does not guarantee a person being raised to a higher consciousness. The latter is a state of mind, not of being..

[Awakening does free you.]

Free you from what? You use free/freedom so lightly. How is it possible for you to be free if you are still in the body? Comfort and freedom are two different concepts. You may be comfortable at moment, but you are never free. There's nothing free about a person. The body decays. There are bills to pay. Worries? I have worries. "Awakened" people worry about their financial situation as well. Some worry about losing their hair. One in particular even worry about the lighting, lol, not just their fluctuating weight. Caking make-up? Several worried about this for hours. There are so many things to worry about, especially if you have a (big) family. It's the nature of being alive to not be free.

This is all wrong. The body is a host. It does not restrict the consciousness. except through the way the body informs the mind And it is tha tnexus which mus tbe understood. A consciousness would be no more free without a body (if it could exist at all) My consciousness can do anything that it might do if unattached. Why should it not be able to? It is a consciousness

Body decay and even having your chest cut open and your heart removed does not hurt the consciousness, until it impinges on the brain ( I guess you are speaking of an immortal consciousness. Again that is a religious philosophical belief rather than a reality.

Money is meaningless to a consciousness. I can chose to worry about it or not. The niverse /god provides all I need, and much that i do not need. Physical responsibilities and duties are choices. Personally i am all for them, but they are not critical to consciousness. I chose to care for my wife and dog But i am perfectly free not to. And that is the differnce of awakening. One realises ones freedoms. A man could point a gun at my head and tell me to do something and i would be absolutley aware that i did not have to do as he asked. I could do whatever i wanted to because i had no fear for my material self. ( I wouldnt want to die just yet but that is not a compelling reason to obey a man with a gun .

[Nothing bad hapens to a awakened person, because they become conscious that bad is just a word and concept.]

Name one "awakened" person who would vouch for you on that one, and I'll show you a big liar.

its true for me

All of us can only truly know the universe and reality through our own consciousness. I KNOW this statement above to be true. Because I am biologically just an ordinary human i see no logical reason why every human cant reach the same state . It is just a sate of mind and we can chose and shape or states of mind.

In christian terms jesus explains this state of being. It is also described in many eastern teachings. I wil also personally vouch for its truth and validity (for what tha tis worth) When you are one with the universe, how can the universe harm you?

Bad is a human construct and we decisde what is bad or hurtful to us. Chose not to be hurt or see bad and it ceases to exist.

[it is this merging and rebirth of a new person with their spiritual self at their core that is the ultimate end result of awakening.]

Are you sure about that? How could you possibly know if you haven't died and come back? You went to sleep and had a wonderful dream. You woke up refreshed. Is that "awakening"? No. And we're not talking about the same "merging." You mentioned, "at their core," please explain?

I am sure we are not talking about the same thing. I am talking about something real, physical and which has already happened to me. You are talking about a metaphysical theoretical possibility. Big differnce.

"At their core" here means the realisation that the core of a person is not their body but their mind and consciousness. That the material body and material world are hosts and environments to the mind.

But i do not see the mind as immortal Although potentially it may be. I am talking about here and now, in the world as it is.

Many people explain this in differnt ways. For example the concept/reality that, while a persons body may be imprisoned that is really irrelevant, because the mind can not be imrisoned. The prison walls cease to exist to the mind of an enlightend person. And he/she travels through them as if they did not exist.

[That is a property of the mind that comes with the awakening.]

You have to carefully read what I wrote. "Awakening" is no mind.

Freedom from fear is a property of the mind.(of conscious self awareness or sapience)Ii found that properyy to come with awakening. Ressurection and possession of a non corporeal body does not guarantee fredom from fear One must chose that outcome consciously.

[but being in non corporeal form does not intrinsically guarantee survival.]

Please explain. One thing, though: how could you possibly know if haven't died?

I think you have a concept of an immortal non corporeal awareness, that cant be harmed or restrained. But sapient self awareness is a product of interaction with internal and external environments. I doubt a non corporeal awareness could sustain itself, or grow/evolve without physical interaction with those environments.

And anyway it would not guarantee freedom from fear. One has to chose to be free from fear, whether one is corporeal, non corporeal , short lived or immortal.

And i cant know. But neither can you. I can use experience, a lot of reading, logic and common sense, to extrapolate what might happen to human-form sapiences, if they somehow (despite the fact is is physically impossible ) ; died, were resurrected, and made non corporeal, immortal entities. As an aside, in my experience neither god nor angels exist in that form but as beings at least capable of manifesting in physical corporeal form

Why should you think that merely dieing and being reborn, would confer on a being greater wisdom, intelligence, awareness, powers or skills.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Mr Walker

[momentsinlove]

Without the body, and the mind attached to the body, there can be no awakening. That is a physical fact, as far as present science demonstrates.

Resurrection (not spiritual awakening) is a theortical /potential possibilty after death It is very highly unlikely. And physical resurrection and restoration of one's consciousness, does not guarantee a person being raised to a higher consciousness. The latter is a state of mind, not of being..

This is all wrong. The body is a host. It does not restrict the consciousness. except through the way the body informs the mind And it is tha tnexus which mus tbe understood. A consciousness would be no more free without a body (if it could exist at all) My consciousness can do anything that it might do if unattached. Why should it not be able to? It is a consciousness

Body decay and even having your chest cut open and your heart removed does not hurt the consciousness, until it impinges on the brain ( I guess you are speaking of an immortal consciousness. Again that is a religious philosophical belief rather than a reality.

Money is meaningless to a consciousness. I can chose to worry about it or not. The niverse /god provides all I need, and much that i do not need. Physical responsibilities and duties are choices. Personally i am all for them, but they are not critical to consciousness. I chose to care for my wife and dog But i am perfectly free not to. And that is the differnce of awakening. One realises ones freedoms. A man could point a gun at my head and tell me to do something and i would be absolutley aware that i did not have to do as he asked. I could do whatever i wanted to because i had no fear for my material self. ( I wouldnt want to die just yet but that is not a compelling reason to obey a man with a gun .

its true for me

All of us can only truly know the universe and reality through our own consciousness. I KNOW this statement above to be true. Because I am biologically just an ordinary human i see no logical reason why every human cant reach the same state . It is just a sate of mind and we can chose and shape or states of mind.

In christian terms jesus explains this state of being. It is also described in many eastern teachings. I wil also personally vouch for its truth and validity (for what tha tis worth) When you are one with the universe, how can the universe harm you?

Bad is a human construct and we decisde what is bad or hurtful to us. Chose not to be hurt or see bad and it ceases to exist.

I am sure we are not talking about the same thing. I am talking about something real, physical and which has already happened to me. You are talking about a metaphysical theoretical possibility. Big differnce.

"At their core" here means the realisation that the core of a person is not their body but their mind and consciousness. That the material body and material world are hosts and environments to the mind.

But i do not see the mind as immortal Although potentially it may be. I am talking about here and now, in the world as it is.

Many people explain this in differnt ways. For example the concept/reality that, while a persons body may be imprisoned that is really irrelevant, because the mind can not be imrisoned. The prison walls cease to exist to the mind of an enlightend person. And he/she travels through them as if they did not exist.

Freedom from fear is a property of the mind.(of conscious self awareness or sapience)Ii found that properyy to come with awakening. Ressurection and possession of a non corporeal body does not guarantee fredom from fear One must chose that outcome consciously.

I think you have a concept of an immortal non corporeal awareness, that cant be harmed or restrained. But sapient self awareness is a product of interaction with internal and external environments. I doubt a non corporeal awareness could sustain itself, or grow/evolve without physical interaction with those environments.

And anyway it would not guarantee freedom from fear. One has to chose to be free from fear, whether one is corporeal, non corporeal , short lived or immortal.

And i cant know. But neither can you. I can use experience, a lot of reading, logic and common sense, to extrapolate what might happen to human-form sapiences, if they somehow (despite the fact is is physically impossible ) ; died, were resurrected, and made non corporeal, immortal entities. As an aside, in my experience neither god nor angels exist in that form but as beings at least capable of manifesting in physical corporeal form

Why should you think that merely dieing and being reborn, would confer on a being greater wisdom, intelligence, awareness, powers or skills.

[tha tdoes not necessarily make it right orr mean tha tyour experinces are the same as mine.]

Our experience is totally on the opposite direction. You had a good night sleep with an interesting dream and woke up feeling fresh as a morning dew. The real "awakened" people died, and later on the "awakening" shift happened.

[This is hypothetical "religious" belief or potential. It might be true or it might be a heap of crock. Spiritual wakening and reaching the cosmic consciousness while alive on the other hand is a known, proven, and relatively 'common" fact of life.]

According to whom? The books you read? Those things that are full of pseudo and omitted truths. Resurrection and "awakening" have no religious label.

[And physical resurrection and restoration of one's consciousness, does not guarantee a person being raised to a higher consciousness. The latter is a state of mind, not of being..]

You really have to set aside your New Age books. Higher consciousness? Lol.

[Without the body, and the mind attached to the body, there can be no awakening. That is a physical fact, as far as present science demonstrates.]

To make it more simple: cognitive thinking = mind, and "awareness" = beyond mind. Your definition of "consciousness" equals cognitive thinking. "Awareness" is absolutely, no-doubt-about-it different. Once you "awakened," you will see what cognitive thinking or mind or (your definition of) consciousness is really about. The rest, you just have to piece it together yourself. Unfortunately, you read too many books, of which you really need to let go. I know it's very hard, and it's the reason why resurrection is very important to destroy whatever it is that's keeping you stuck. Resurrection is a tremendous shock to the system. Since you haven't gone through the resurrection process for that shift to really hit you profoundly, you have a ligitimate excuse for not knowing about true "awakening." Don't get me wrong. I'm just giving you the map to make that shift happen. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Plus, you really have to read my posts very carefully because I'm giving you quite a detailed list, even though it may not seem it. Read what it takes to make that shift happen again, and again.

[Resurrection (not spiritual awakening) is a theortical /potential possibilty after death It is very highly unlikely. Science indicates that once the organic brain dies, consciousness ceases.]

You're hiding beyond science, and I'm telling you truths beyond our current science. It's unmeasurable. Look up Lazarus Syndrome to banish your ignorance about the reality of resurrection. You only have to die to conquer death.

Of course not, you had a fabulous dream. Authentic "awakened people died," or completely left their body after the brain waves stopped. It's the reason why it's "no mind," no cognitive reasoning, no consciousness. After resurrection, a shift would hopefully take place.

In your case, of course, you have to experience it for yourself, and it's the reason why it's a major factor in real "awakening." Who said "awakening" is pleasant? Dreams are pleasant and refreshing. You had one of those. Like I said, your form of "awakening" will always be a suspect, as in "It was only a dream."

[And that is the differnce of awakening. One realises ones freedoms.]

Your connotation of freedoms (plural) equals to comforts. To repeat myself, freedom is not comfort, vice versa. In "awakening," one realizes the opposite of "true" freedom.

[body decay and even having your chest cut open and your heart removed does not hurt the consciousness, until it impinges on the brain ( I guess you are speaking of an immortal consciousness. Again that is a religious philosophical belief rather than a reality.] How old are you? Have you worked with sickly old people (75+)? You haven't gone through a heart operation with all those contraptions and meds to stop your lungs from collapsing, and not to mention the tremendous chest pain and nightmares. The list is long, my friend. Pain is not just physical. I do understand that many people can be very naive.

[A man could point a gun at my head and tell me to do something and i would be absolutley aware that i did not have to do as he asked. I could do whatever i wanted to because i had no fear for my material self. ( I wouldnt want to die just yet but that is not a compelling reason to obey a man with a gun.] Oh, "I wouldn't want to die just yet..." Dude, your full of it. It's amusing in a way because you really believe it, me thinks. I hope no one's around you, however, if a situation like this ever happens. I hope the gun dude doesn't ask you first.

Gee, your method of "awakening" has really stripped you of your romantic side. Does your wife know about your feelings? Are you divorced? If not, why not?

[Money is meaningless to a consciousness.]

Don't you just hate rich people b****ing about how poor they are? Man, you sure sound like one. Or did your IQ just suddenly dropped because I know you're not stupid. Do you work to at least support yourself? Again, those New Age books sure did a number on you.

[ChloeB]

[tha tdoes not necessarily make it right orr mean tha tyour experinces are the same as mine.]

Our experience is totally on the opposite direction. You had a good night sleep with an interesting dream and woke up feeling fresh as a morning dew. The real "awakened" people died, and later on the "awakening" shift happened.

[This is hypothetical "religious" belief or potential. It might be true or it might be a heap of crock. Spiritual wakening and reaching the cosmic consciousness while alive on the other hand is a known, proven, and relatively 'common" fact of life.]

According to whom? The books you read? Those things that are full of pseudo and omitted truths. Resurrection and "awakening" have no religious label.

[And physical resurrection and restoration of one's consciousness, does not guarantee a person being raised to a higher consciousness. The latter is a state of mind, not of being..]

You really have to set aside your New Age books. Higher consciousness? Lol.

[Without the body, and the mind attached to the body, there can be no awakening. That is a physical fact, as far as present science demonstrates.]

To make it more simple: cognitive thinking = mind, and "awareness" = beyond mind. Your definition of "consciousness" equals cognitive thinking. "Awareness" is absolutely, no-doubt-about-it different. Once you "awakened," you will see what cognitive thinking or mind or (your definition of) consciousness is really about. The rest, you just have to piece it together yourself. Unfortunately, you read too many books, of which you really need to let go. I know it's very hard, and it's the reason why resurrection is very important to destroy whatever it is that's keeping you stuck. Resurrection is a tremendous shock to the system. Since you haven't gone through the resurrection process for that shift to really hit you profoundly, you have a ligitimate excuse for not knowing about true "awakening." Don't get me wrong. I'm just giving you the map to make that shift happen. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Plus, you really have to read my posts very carefully because I'm giving you quite a detailed list, even though it may not seem it. Read what it takes to make that shift happen again, and again.

[Resurrection (not spiritual awakening) is a theortical /potential possibilty after death It is very highly unlikely. Science indicates that once the organic brain dies, consciousness ceases.]

You're hiding beyond science, and I'm telling you truths beyond our current science. It's unmeasurable. Look up Lazarus Syndrome to banish your ignorance about the reality of resurrection. You only have to die to conquer death.

Of course not, you had a fabulous dream. Authentic "awakened people died," or completely left their body after the brain waves stopped. It's the reason why it's "no mind," no cognitive reasoning, no consciousness. After resurrection, a shift would hopefully take place.

In your case, of course, you have to experience it for yourself, and it's the reason why it's a major factor in real "awakening." Who said "awakening" is pleasant? Dreams are pleasant and refreshing. You had one of those. Like I said, your form of "awakening" will always be a suspect, as in "It was only a dream."

[And that is the differnce of awakening. One realises ones freedoms.]

Your connotation of freedoms (plural) equals to comforts. To repeat myself, freedom is not comfort, vice versa. In "awakening," one realizes the opposite of "true" freedom.

[body decay and even having your chest cut open and your heart removed does not hurt the consciousness, until it impinges on the brain ( I guess you are speaking of an immortal consciousness. Again that is a religious philosophical belief rather than a reality.] How old are you? Have you worked with sickly old people (75+)? You haven't gone through a heart operation with all those contraptions and meds to stop your lungs from collapsing, and not to mention the tremendous chest pain and nightmares. The list is long, my friend. Pain is not just physical. I do understand that many people can be very naive.

[A man could point a gun at my head and tell me to do something and i would be absolutley aware that i did not have to do as he asked. I could do whatever i wanted to because i had no fear for my material self. ( I wouldnt want to die just yet but that is not a compelling reason to obey a man with a gun.] Oh, "I wouldn't want to die just yet..." Dude, your full of it. It's amusing in a way because you really believe it, me thinks. I hope no one's around you, however, if a situation like this ever happens. I hope the gun dude doesn't ask you first.

Gee, your method of "awakening" has really stripped you of your romantic side. Does your wife know about your feelings? Are you divorced? If not, why not?

[Money is meaningless to a consciousness.]

Don't you just hate rich people b****ing about how poor they are? Man, you sure sound like one. Or did your IQ just suddenly dropped because I know you're not stupid. Do you work to at least support yourself? Again, those New Age books sure did a number on you.

It sounds like you're peddling something out of Flatliners and you need to be careful about saying things like that on here.

[Mr Walker]

[tha tdoes not necessarily make it right orr mean tha tyour experinces are the same as mine.]

Our experience is totally on the opposite direction. You had a good night sleep with an interesting dream and woke up feeling fresh as a morning dew. The real "awakened" people died, and later on the "awakening" shift happened.

[This is hypothetical "religious" belief or potential. It might be true or it might be a heap of crock. Spiritual wakening and reaching the cosmic consciousness while alive on the other hand is a known, proven, and relatively 'common" fact of life.]

According to whom? The books you read? Those things that are full of pseudo and omitted truths. Resurrection and "awakening" have no religious label.

[And physical resurrection and restoration of one's consciousness, does not guarantee a person being raised to a higher consciousness. The latter is a state of mind, not of being..]

You really have to set aside your New Age books. Higher consciousness? Lol.

[Without the body, and the mind attached to the body, there can be no awakening. That is a physical fact, as far as present science demonstrates.]

To make it more simple: cognitive thinking = mind, and "awareness" = beyond mind. Your definition of "consciousness" equals cognitive thinking. "Awareness" is absolutely, no-doubt-about-it different. Once you "awakened," you will see what cognitive thinking or mind or (your definition of) consciousness is really about. The rest, you just have to piece it together yourself. Unfortunately, you read too many books, of which you really need to let go. I know it's very hard, and it's the reason why resurrection is very important to destroy whatever it is that's keeping you stuck. Resurrection is a tremendous shock to the system. Since you haven't gone through the resurrection process for that shift to really hit you profoundly, you have a ligitimate excuse for not knowing about true "awakening." Don't get me wrong. I'm just giving you the map to make that shift happen. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Plus, you really have to read my posts very carefully because I'm giving you quite a detailed list, even though it may not seem it. Read what it takes to make that shift happen again, and again.

[Resurrection (not spiritual awakening) is a theortical /potential possibilty after death It is very highly unlikely. Science indicates that once the organic brain dies, consciousness ceases.]

You're hiding beyond science, and I'm telling you truths beyond our current science. It's unmeasurable. Look up Lazarus Syndrome to banish your ignorance about the reality of resurrection. You only have to die to conquer death.

Of course not, you had a fabulous dream. Authentic "awakened people died," or completely left their body after the brain waves stopped. It's the reason why it's "no mind," no cognitive reasoning, no consciousness. After resurrection, a shift would hopefully take place.

In your case, of course, you have to experience it for yourself, and it's the reason why it's a major factor in real "awakening." Who said "awakening" is pleasant? Dreams are pleasant and refreshing. You had one of those. Like I said, your form of "awakening" will always be a suspect, as in "It was only a dream."

[And that is the differnce of awakening. One realises ones freedoms.]

Your connotation of freedoms (plural) equals to comforts. To repeat myself, freedom is not comfort, vice versa. In "awakening," one realizes the opposite of "true" freedom.

[body decay and even having your chest cut open and your heart removed does not hurt the consciousness, until it impinges on the brain ( I guess you are speaking of an immortal consciousness. Again that is a religious philosophical belief rather than a reality.] How old are you? Have you worked with sickly old people (75+)? You haven't gone through a heart operation with all those contraptions and meds to stop your lungs from collapsing, and not to mention the tremendous chest pain and nightmares. The list is long, my friend. Pain is not just physical. I do understand that many people can be very naive.

[A man could point a gun at my head and tell me to do something and i would be absolutley aware that i did not have to do as he asked. I could do whatever i wanted to because i had no fear for my material self. ( I wouldnt want to die just yet but that is not a compelling reason to obey a man with a gun.] Oh, "I wouldn't want to die just yet..." Dude, your full of it. It's amusing in a way because you really believe it, me thinks. I hope no one's around you, however, if a situation like this ever happens. I hope the gun dude doesn't ask you first.

Gee, your method of "awakening" has really stripped you of your romantic side. Does your wife know about your feelings? Are you divorced? If not, why not?

[Money is meaningless to a consciousness.]

Don't you just hate rich people b****ing about how poor they are? Man, you sure sound like one. Or did your IQ just suddenly dropped because I know you're not stupid. Do you work to at least support yourself? Again, those New Age books sure did a number on you.

First ive never read a "new age book". Second my points here come form my own experiences in reality; plus reading histories, politics, sociologies, science; and also fiction based on other peoples world views. There is nothing "new age" about this. It goes back to the dawn of human history.

There is absolutely no evidence of consciousness or awareness beyond a linkage to a bilogical or artificial "brain". And a lot of modern scientific knowledge which explains the nature of human thought and its evolution as a part of bilogical process.

Anything else is only speculative and i dont personally do speculative realism . I do adore speculative fiction. Awakening is a real physical experience which can be analysed aand described in known physical details. Anything after death is unknown, speculative and canno be physically described as a known quality.

I am not sure where you got the idea i equate freedom with comfort. Freedom is freedom. A wise man might use it to achieve comfort. But comfort is not an innate product or consequnce of freedom. Understanding is. Truth and freedom are concommitant parts of both process and product.

How old are you? Have you worked with sickly old people (75+)? You haven't gone through a heart operation with all those contraptions and meds to stop your lungs from collapsing, and not to mention the tremendous chest pain and nightmares. The list is long, my friend. Pain is not just physical. I do understand that many people can be very naive.

I am 60 in 12 days time. I used that particular example becuase, in fact, i have had such an opereration. My chest was cut open, my heart taken out and 3 arteries transferred from my leg arm and chest to replace blocked ones.

And so I know. Pain is a product of our physical body. It serves usefiul purposes. But pain is not connected to consciousness One can remove transfer or allieviate most pain by an act of conscious awareness and effort (Of course a wise man also takes pain killers as required .0 This is also true of fear I went into that operation, knowing i might die, without any fear or worry. Because my consciousness made it so, and my connection with god/the cosmic consciousness helped me achieve this state.

But apart from that operation I never need to take pain killers for tooth aches, torn muscles or other mundane injuries. I just block out transfer or ignore the pain. PAin is not bad In fact it seves both as a warning of problems and as a reminder we are still alive.

This also applies to material loss My wife and I lost eveyhting we owned in a big bushfire, after 30 years of marriage including hstoric family heirlooms in total worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, yet we were never sad upset or grieving. In fact the whole thing became a positive one due to the love compassion and care of thousands of people close to us and around Australia.I learned then that one does not require any non essential possessions to exist, and that to be free one must never become tied to, or a slave of, material belongings. Happiness and contentment are a state of mind that comes from within, whatever ones external circumstances.

As withthe gun incident Twice i have faced this in reality and twice i responded as i said. So Iknow what iam talking about Each of us is free to chose our actions. I can now act inmy ordinary life without fear of consequence even though i understand potential consequences because i KNOW i can. CAution is wise, fear paralyses.

As i said, i havent had a nightmare for 50 years. Not about loss or grief or pain or suffering. Not because i havent been through those things physically but because my mind is my own. And it responds as i chose to. I do not feel loss grief pain or suffernig unless i chose to (in my mind) I cant alwayscontrol the physical causes, but they are irrelevant. It is how my consciousness responds to physical stimuli which counts. No fear equals no need for nightmares.

Richness and poorness are, in large part, irrelevant Every consciousness has the same possessions within itself. It cant hold, keep, or rely on possesions. So no i dont b**** about rich or poor. Ii earn a comfortable living doing what i love and give away the money i dont need If i run short the universe/god supplies me with wha ti need. because iam a part of it.

I work because i have a gift and because i love teaching. It has nothing to do with money. I woud teach even if no one paid me.

My wife and I have been married for 35 years and have loved only each other, both in body and soul, for all that time. I chose to love, honour, and respect my wife, and act accordingly. I could have chosen NOT to do one of those things, and then perhaps, like so many others we would have divorced. As it happens I am alot more romantic than my wife who judges peole on their practical side. I am not the most practical person, being more of the mind. But any intelligent person can learn practical skills. I maintained a small farm for 20 years doing shearing, fencing, electrical work, plumbing, building, and mechanical work, But inmy wifes eyes I am not "practical" And by comparison with some i am not. Yet my mind allows me to be quite practical I can read, visualise, understand, and then do/create, fix almost anything. (a gift from my father)

[Mr Walker]

It sounds like you're peddling something out of Flatliners and you need to be careful about saying things like that on here.

My assmtion has been that he is taling about near death experinces. No one has truly died and come back to life (with apologies to christ)

But i can see how a person might have a unique experince if they died, and had a nde and then "came back to life" with an awareness of that NDE.

If one chose to ignore the medical and scientific explanations for how this occurs, it could come to dominate ones life. And to be honest, I cant really criticise. I have had real experiences in life that are inexplicable by science. But for me, all NDE are possible to a lving person. It is the living brain which creates them, even where they are quite strange (like obeing, clair voyance, seeing the future etc.) One does NOT have to die to experience every thing one might experience in a NDE

[momentsinlove]

It sounds like you're peddling something out of Flatliners and you need to be careful about saying things like that on here.

Flatliners? Expand your horizon. There's more to life than the movies. I don't expect you to understand because it has nothing to do with understanding. You just have to experience "awakening," first hand.

[momentsinlove]

My assmtion has been that he is taling about near death experinces. No one has truly died and come back to life (with apologies to christ)

But i can see how a person might have a unique experince if they died, and had a nde and then "came back to life" with an awareness of that NDE.

If one chose to ignore the medical and scientific explanations for how this occurs, it could come to dominate ones life. And to be honest, I cant really criticise. I have had real experiences in life that are inexplicable by science. But for me, all NDE are possible to a lving person. It is the living brain which creates them, even where they are quite strange (like obeing, clair voyance, seeing the future etc.) One does NOT have to die to experience every thing one might experience in a NDE

You hold on to your ignorance. Keep reading your New Age books. That's okay, Mr. Walker. NDE, lol.

[momentsinlove]

I am 60 in 12 days time. I used that particular example becuase, in fact, i have had such an opereration. My chest was cut open, my heart taken out and 3 arteries transferred from my leg arm and chest to replace blocked ones.

A

And you're addicted to your pain medications? Ah, they're the reason for your amazing dream. Dream is not "awakening." Addiction and being dependent aren't signs of freedom. And btw, "awakening" has nothing to do with suicide. Didn't the "good" Books warn us about it? I, for one, wouldn't even think of doing it.

[momentsinlove]

First ive never read a "new age book".

But you've gotten some pointers on the net, no doubt. You sure sound like a New Age wannabe.

There is absolutely no evidence of consciousness or awareness beyond a linkage to a bilogical or artificial "brain". And a lot of modern scientific knowledge which explains the nature of human thought and its evolution as a part of bilogical process.

Anything else is only speculative and i dont personally do speculative realism .

How would it be possible to have some scientific evidence? Think about it. You don't need to be "awakened" to figure that out. I mean, how do you get those probes and machines and those brainiac scientists in that reality? "Awakened" people will tell you that their "awakening" was not up to them. In fact, many of them haven't done any form of meditation or spirituality or religious training.

[ChloeB]

And you're addicted to your pain medications? Ah, they're the reason for your amazing dream. Dream is not "awakening." Addiction and being dependent aren't signs of freedom. And btw, "awakening" has nothing to do with suicide. Didn't the "good" Books warn us about it? I, for one, wouldn't even think of doing it.

I guess this "awakening" of your's didn't grant you any such amazing skills like reading comprehension. This was a nice thread, go troll somewhere else.

[momentsinlove]

I am not sure where you got the idea i equate freedom with comfort. Freedom is freedom.

Is it now? The way you wave your freedom around sounds more me like comfort, and in fact, it is comfort, unless you prefer it to be called "superficial freedom." Because no person in this world is capable of being free. By definition. Ponder on that.

Ii earn a comfortable living doing what i love and give away the money i dont need If i run short the universe/god supplies me with wha ti need. because iam a part of it.

I work because i have a gift and because i love teaching. It has nothing to do with money. I woud teach even if no one paid me.

(a gift from my father)

Really? Of course it has something to do with money. You said so yourself. You only give away the money you don't need. So, you do earn a living? Therefore, you're not "free." And yes, Mr. Walker, you are not only one that's part of the universe. As long as you have a body, you are always part of the universe. Don't put yourself on high heels, it's unbecoming you.

[momentsinlove]

I guess this "awakening" of your's didn't grant you any such amazing skills like reading comprehension. This was a nice thread, go troll somewhere else.

Troll? And you're a good judge of that? Did I hurt your ego?

[ChloeB]

Troll? And you're a good judge of that? Did I hurt your ego?

Yes...*sniffles and runs out of room crying*

[momentsinlove]

Yes...*sniffles and runs out of room crying*

I am sorry. What can I say, I'm just an "Alien Embryo." Edited August 7, 2011 by momentsinlove

[ChloeB]

I am sorry. What can I say, I'm just an "Alien Embryo."

LOL, it's okay. I was just joking with you. I'm sorry I called you a troll, but I really have no idea what you're trying to explain, you're kind of cryptic and you're really kind of being mean to Mr Walker so...... anyhoo it did seem like you were talking about you really had to die, to really know.

[momentsinlove]

LOL, it's okay. I was just joking with you. I'm sorry I called you a troll, but I really have no idea what you're trying to explain, you're kind of cryptic and you're really kind of being mean to Mr Walker so...... anyhoo it did seem like you were talking about you really had to die, to really know.

I'm actually not being mean to Mr. Walker. I'm being as precise as possible with him because he keeps going in circles. And he writes in volumes, lol! It's actually charming how he could be so open.

It just seems cryptic, but it's really very simple. As I mentioned before, I'm omitting certain details... Thing is, "awakened" or not, we are not free. "Awakened" people are no different, except they see and accept the reality they're in. It has nothing to do with good or bad or better than or right or wrong. It just is. It makes me wonder though if "awakened" people would be "awakened" in their next incarnations, if they decide to not "merge." Peace to you, ChloeB.

[ChloeB]

I'm actually not being mean to Mr. Walker. I'm being as precise as possible with him because he keeps going in circles. And he writes in volumes, lol! It's actually charming how he could be so open.

It just seems cryptic, but it's really very simple. As I mentioned before, I'm omitting certain details... Thing is, "awakened" or not, we are not free. "Awakened" people are no different, except they see and accept the reality they're in. It has nothing to do with good or bad or better than or right or wrong. It just is. It makes me wonder though if "awakened" people would be "awakened" in their next incarnations, if they decide to not "merge." Peace to you, ChloeB.

LOL, Mr Walker does write a LOT. He knows he does, but that's just how he is.

Hmmmm, I don't know what you guys mean by free really, but I keep thinking of this documentary I saw about Gospel of Judas, and in that Jesus wanted Judas to help him get crucified, to set him free of his physical self; Judas was a good guy in that, definitely gnostic, but anyway, maybe that's what you're saying, you can get a glimmer or an awareness, but regardless you're still living in a physical body trapped in a dualistic world. That's my best effort to understand you. I tried. *shrugs*

[Mr Walker]

And you're addicted to your pain medications? Ah, they're the reason for your amazing dream. Dream is not "awakening." Addiction and being dependent aren't signs of freedom. And btw, "awakening" has nothing to do with suicide. Didn't the "good" Books warn us about it? I, for one, wouldn't even think of doing it.

I told you I do not use pain medications, Even withthe heart operation when the pain was physically great, i used the minimunm amount of pain relief that I had to to to stay awake and functioning, and used my mind to control, put aside, and not feel pain.

Physical pain is not necessarily fully transfered to mental awareness, and the mind can block and allieviate most pain. This is again not new age, it is both old age and confirmed by modern neurological science.

Suicde never crossed my mind. I dont know where that came from. I meant that you seemed to be interested in the idea of a physical death and resurrection of consciousness. The only thing resembling that in human history is near death experience. But NDE dont necessarily (or naturally) have anything to do with suicide. Perhaps it was the other poster referring to flatliner which confused you.

ps where do you get the idea that any of my personal descriptions and accounts comes to me as a dream. I am talking about wide awake reality. Awakening comes as a fully conscious, wide awake realisation and has nothing to do with human dream states.

I did use the anaology of dreaming/waking to illustrate the change in conscious state which occurs once one is 'Awakened" or uplifted or enlightened or transformed, but that was all. Dont be confused awakening is a real physicla process in the conscious awake and real world which physically transforms the individual who experinces it again in the real world The abilites it gives are real ones, useable in the real waking world, not in dreams.

Just to be clear. Are you saying you have had a personal experience, or have evidence, that one can die , be resurrected , and as part of the resurrection gain a new state/form of consciousness? Or is this an interesting philosophical /theological proposition, which you find has merit as an ides/concept.

[Mr Walker]

name='momentsinlove' timestamp='1312693221' post='4013257']

But you've gotten some pointers on the net, no doubt. You sure sound like a New Age wannabe.

LOL i cat help what my life has taught me or wha t i sound like. All i write comes from my life and also from what i read. But Although i read a lot, i havent actually read anythng about new age stuff. It is too modern for me .And i find it a bit weird. I dont use the web a lot for research, although it is good for checking and finding basic factual nformation. No offence taken though. I can understand why you get this impression .

How would it be possible to have some scientific evidence? Think about it. You don't need to be "awakened" to figure that out. I mean, how do you get those probes and machines and those brainiac scientists in that reality? "Awakened" people will tell you that their "awakening" was not up to them. In fact, many of them haven't done any form of meditation or spirituality or religious training.

I can relate to this. No one believes my encounters with physical angels or god and both of them are not amenable to scientific study.

I was asking if you have had such an experience or where you get your info from. I would never deny another person their own truth and reality if it was honestly/ personally come by through experience. But as far as i know, no one has truly died and been resurrected, so there are no people to talk to about this. In todays science, being revived means you actually werent really dead (only mostly dead to quote miracle max)

[Mr Walker]

Is it now? The way you wave your freedom around sounds more me like comfort, and in fact, it is comfort, unless you prefer it to be called "superficial freedom." Because no person in this world is capable of being free. By definition. Ponder on that.

Really? Of course it has something to do with money. You said so yourself. You only give away the money you don't need. So, you do earn a living? Therefore, you're not "free." And yes, Mr. Walker, you are not only one that's part of the universe. As long as you have a body, you are always part of the universe. Don't put yourself on high heels, it's unbecoming you.

I wrote a long response to this but the computer crashed. I can't be bothered doing it all again. Basically ever human being in the world who can think is already free. They only need to realise this to become physically free. It is like being in a cell where the walls are an illusion, but until you raelise that, they continue to restrain you. Anyone can walk out of the cell, any time they chose. We are all free beings not prisoners.

Secondly there is a differnce between providing for needs and for desires tht we have been taught we mus thave. I am not trapped because i provide only for my needs, and in large part those would be provided what ever i did.

So I am free to chose to work or to give away my money, or to chose not to. And while we are all part of the universe, very few people consciously realise this, and even fewer rearrange their lives to reflect that reality. Its like the cell walls again. Once you know you are part of the universe and the universe is a part of you, then anything is possible. How can you be constrained or restrained as a being of universal proportions.

[Mr Walker]

I'm actually not being mean to Mr. Walker. I'm being as precise as possible with him because he keeps going in circles. And he writes in volumes, lol! It's actually charming how he could be so open.

It just seems cryptic, but it's really very simple. As I mentioned before, I'm omitting certain details... Thing is, "awakened" or not, we are not free. "Awakened" people are no different, except they see and accept the reality they're in. It has nothing to do with good or bad or better than or right or wrong. It just is. It makes me wonder though if "awakened" people would be "awakened" in their next incarnations, if they decide to not "merge." Peace to you, ChloeB.

i must admit i hadn't noticed your status. An explanation for you about how i tend /prefer to post..

When someone presents a belief or an idea or a concept, i will examine it thoroughly and pull it to pieces against my own experiences and knowledge.

But where a person says "this is my own experience", then I cannot argue with that. If you were saying you had died, been resurrected, and had a message for the world, I would accept that as your genuine understanding of wha thad happened to you.. I would suspend belief and disbelief because it is something integral and important to you, and attacking it, in a way, attacks you.

But i feel free to criticise and pull apart hypothetical ideas, beliefs and concepts, no matter how strongly people hold them , if they are only a belief or a hypothetical pov.

I love words and the ideas that lie behind words. ANd i find one cant do justice to complex ideas with simple words or with a minimalistic number of words. Thus i write a lot. Or iam just verbose and in love with the sound of my own "voice"

And why not be open and honest. There is no point in lying. Especially when the only one who can truly know if I am lying is myself. I would only be cheating myself by resorting to lies or half truths. And my ego is so big, i dont need to cheat or take any unfair advantage.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Mr Walker

[StarMountainKid]

It is like being in a cell where the walls are an illusion, but until you raelise that, they continue to restrain you. Anyone can walk out of the cell, any time they chose. We are all free beings not prisoners.

Well said. We are all in a cell of our own making. There is some room within the cell to walk around in, and we consider our movement in this limited space our freedom.

The surprising thing is, the door is unlocked, and as you say, we can leave anytime we wish. The problem is, we may not realize we're in the cell at all, and until we understand our confinement we will not be able to push open the door and walk out into true, unrestricted freedom.

Then again, we my prefer our confinement to freedom. It's very cozy, reassuring and safe in our cells, after all. At least we're led to believe so.

[momentsinlove]

I told you I do not use pain medications, Even withthe heart operation when the pain was physically great, i used the minimunm amount of pain relief that I had to to to stay awake and functioning, and used my mind to control, put aside, and not feel pain.

Physical pain is not necessarily fully transfered to mental awareness, and the mind can block and allieviate most pain. This is again not new age, it is both old age and confirmed by modern neurological science.

Suicde never crossed my mind. I dont know where that came from. I meant that you seemed to be interested in the idea of a physical death and resurrection of consciousness. The only thing resembling that in human history is near death experience. But NDE dont necessarily (or naturally) have anything to do with suicide. Perhaps it was the other poster referring to flatliner which confused you.

ps where do you get the idea that any of my personal descriptions and accounts comes to me as a dream. I am talking about wide awake reality. Awakening comes as a fully conscious, wide awake realisation and has nothing to do with human dream states.

I did use the anaology of dreaming/waking to illustrate the change in conscious state which occurs once one is 'Awakened" or uplifted or enlightened or transformed, but that was all. Dont be confused awakening is a real physicla process in the conscious awake and real world which physically transforms the individual who experinces it again in the real world The abilites it gives are real ones, useable in the real waking world, not in dreams.

Just to be clear. Are you saying you have had a personal experience, or have evidence, that one can die , be resurrected , and as part of the resurrection gain a new state/form of consciousness? Or is this an interesting philosophical /theological proposition, which you find has merit as an ides/concept.

I'm back from a long job. That ain't freedom.

So you did use pain medication. Control is not freedom. It has nothing to do with it.

[suicde never crossed my mind. I dont know where that came from.] I was trying to save time. Wrong idea.

[The only thing resembling that in human history is near death experience.] That's a phony idea. One is either alive or dreaming, or dead. Did you look up Lazarus Syndrome?

[Are you saying you have had a personal experience, or have evidence, that one can die , be resurrected , and as part of the resurrection gain a new state/form of consciousness?] Again, please look up Lazarus Syndrome. You don't gain a new state, but you regain your "awareness," at least for "now."

[ps where do you get the idea that any of my personal descriptions and accounts comes to me as a dream. I am talking about wide awake reality. Awakening comes as a fully conscious, wide awake realisation and has nothing to do with human dream states.]

According to Mr. Walker...

[Awakening, for me, was like coming out of a deep sleep or slumber rather than a resurrection from death.]Are you backtracking, or was it just a slip of the tongue (or writing hand)? Would you like to repost your entire position on this matter so that we don't repeat ourselves? (I'm not being rude.)