Top Hat Man/Ghost/Demon

[xyroblaze]

mathew 21:21

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

so if everyone who believes in god prayed for the suffering and starving to end it would be done? but people in these countries that are full of suffering and starvation are already praying to god but nothing is happening, did god lie? or is he not real?

[nyuk]

My idea of evil is what the moors murderers did.

Kidnapping, torturing, murdering and recording it all doesnt make them bad people

It makes them evil.

[xyroblaze]

My idea of evil is what the moors murderers did.

Kidnapping, torturing, murdering and recording it all doesnt make them bad people

It makes them evil.

agreed

[Rocketgirl33]

mathew 21:21

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

so if everyone who believes in god prayed for the suffering and starving to end it would be done? but people in these countries that are full of suffering and starvation are already praying to god but nothing is happening, did god lie? or is he not real?

But faith in what pray tell? I have no faith in gods nor devils, but only in myself and it has served me well my whole life. I have had tragady in my life, as all humans do.I have cried over loved ones passing, cheered over winnings and hoped over love. I have held my newborn child in my hands and latter held me grandchild in these same hands. I have all that I need and live a comfortable existance yet I have no God. When things were not going good for me in my life I looked to myself to make it better because I am the captian of my own ship. Nobody drives my car but me, so to say. I will say that during the time in my life that I did worship God, and do all things in his name and pray to him and come to him a humble woman. Only then did my journy harden. Everything became a struggle and they would tell me "Pray to your god for his favor." It never came, I only worked harder and thanked him for pain and the hunger I lived through.

One day I shed that skin and never looked back. I went to seek knowlage of all things in the human devine idea and came out of it with MY own ideas of how this world works. I have been nothing but free and easy since I shed that "devine" skin. If I needed a new car, I saved money to buy it. When I needed food for my children I worked and spent my paycheck to buy food. I gave to charity to help those less forturnate than myself and tried to teach my children to do the same. Here I sit, pretty healthy and pretty dam happy and I don't worry about if I am going to get to heaven or not! I think that if there was a devil he would be less "evil" and more devine. He would be there turnting people away from god by showing them they can do it alone and that if you stay with god your life will be hard and a struggle. I think that would be more reasonable that sending his demons to terrorize you and send you running into the arms of the one he hates the most. This is all "My personal opinion."

Rocketgirl

[Bildr]

Well i don't want to be pejorative, but the bible as been translated SO MUCH over the era, that it is far from it's original meanings, and it's still have the problem of interpretation.But I have nothing against people who chose this faith(it is your own right to chose whatever faith makes you feel comfortable), as long as you don't follow everything that is written in this book like it is the absolute truth(specially over 200 year's of translation). For me Jesus is just another spiritual guide, like Buddha or whatever spiritual guide you chose. They will not do every thing for you, they will guide you, but it's for you to find your OWN spiritual path. For me a book is only a spiritual crutch. It can help you to find your way, but it is up to yourself to find your own inner truth.

Per example one thing i have learn in my own spiritual quest; everything is made of both polarity; Yin & Yang neither good or bad, the intention you have and actions you do with those intentions makes the action Positive/Progressive or Negative/Repressive. The same on earth, you need both polarity for life to exist; male and female. So what I beleive(it's my own opinion) is that if there's a ''God'' that is the spiritual representation of the whole universe, he must have a ''wife'' for it to have spiritual offspring aka ''US''.Some are even talking about the biblical God that used to have a wife(Ashera) that was edited our of the bible. So Creation always come from ''duality'' even here on earth and even when you have an idea; First you think and you feel about your idea ''YIN'' and then you take action to do what you have thought ''YANG''

[xyroblaze]

But faith in what pray tell? I have no faith in gods nor devils, but only in myself and it has served me well my whole life. I have had tragady in my life, as all humans do.I have cried over loved ones passing, cheered over winnings and hoped over love. I have held my newborn child in my hands and latter held me grandchild in these same hands. I have all that I need and live a comfortable existance yet I have no God. When things were not going good for me in my life I looked to myself to make it better because I am the captian of my own ship. Nobody drives my car but me, so to say. I will say that during the time in my life that I did worship God, and do all things in his name and pray to him and come to him a humble woman. Only then did my journy harden. Everything became a struggle and they would tell me "Pray to your god for his favor." It never came, I only worked harder and thanked him for pain and the hunger I lived through.

One day I shed that skin and never looked back. I went to seek knowlage of all things in the human devine idea and came out of it with MY own ideas of how this world works. I have been nothing but free and easy since I shed that "devine" skin. If I needed a new car, I saved money to buy it. When I needed food for my children I worked and spent my paycheck to buy food. I gave to charity to help those less forturnate than myself and tried to teach my children to do the same. Here I sit, pretty healthy and pretty dam happy and I don't worry about if I am going to get to heaven or not! I think that if there was a devil he would be less "evil" and more devine. He would be there turnting people away from god by showing them they can do it alone and that if you stay with god your life will be hard and a struggle. I think that would be more reasonable that sending his demons to terrorize you and send you running into the arms of the one he hates the most. This is all "My personal opinion."

Rocketgirl

i could not have put it any better myself.

[OrdinaryClay]

Not all traditions are dark, and some incorporate aspects of Buddhism, Hinduism and shamanism which can be helpful psychologically and promote self-growth.

It goes with out saying that the occult is a mishmash of beliefs. The net of deception is greater that way. Being a mishmash gives it all the more hiding spots. Darkness hides from being exposed, but it's always there.

The supernatural existing does not automatically make every religion which posits its existence true. The existence of ghosts or "good" and "bad" discarnate entities wouldn't automatically make heaven or hell--or even God--real. Your logic is mystifying.

You did not read my post very carefully. I did not say that. I'm not sure you understand what the supernatural is, to be honest. The existence of the supernatural makes the existence God more likely. God is supernatural. Any evidence for the supernatural is evidence for God, and any evidence for God is evidence for the supernatural.

[OrdinaryClay]

The occult is hidden knowledge, and knowledge is the only defense.

Knowledge is no defense. You can know and be powerless. It happens all the time.

[OrdinaryClay]

I, for one, do not believe in good or evil, as I think the terms are too absolute and their origin too steeped in unsubstantiated religious dogma. I think they are really subjective labels which vary in application between individuals, cultures, and time-periods.

Evil is the absence of good, just as cold is the absence of heat.

The notion that good and evil are relative is absurd, and no one lives that way. It is easy to give lip service to believing in a relative moral standard, but deep down everyone knows this is simply not true. There are acts that we all agree are evil.

[OrdinaryClay]

right, after reading your response and rethinking my argument i have come to the conclusion that god is neither good nor bad and satan is either good nor bad because both have good and bad qualities

but i have also come to realise that god is guilty of corruption as well. you will go to heaven if you believe and if you dont you will burn for eternity. that in itself is bribery and blackmail

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/divine

3. a god is not supremely good as i have already stated

3. b god is not extremely pleasant otherwise he would not command the death of non believers

4 god is not perfect, otherwise his teachings would apply to everything even 1500-2000 years after the bible was written. but no, sexism and racism are all over the bible and are now seen as evils we must banish. condoning the slaughter of thousands of non believers does not sound like an all loving god to me

therefore god is not the definition of divine, only partly, he's only divine because thats what we call all gods.

Your conclusions are wrong. What you describe is called the "Problem of Evil". There have been volumes written on the subject and the answers are well know among theologians. If you spend the time searching, i.e. if you genuinely want to seek the truth you will find your concerns are answered.

[Cybele]

The net of deception is greater that way. Being a mishmash gives it all the more hiding spots. Darkness hides from being exposed, but it's always there.

I'd say most mainstream religions are huge deceptions as well, but there's no point in arguing with fundamentalists. Tell me, which has inspired more chaos and violence in the modern world: occult philosophies or mainstream religions?

You did not read my post very carefully. I did not say that. I'm not sure you understand what the supernatural is, to be honest. The existence of the supernatural makes the existence God more likely. God is supernatural. Any evidence for the supernatural is evidence for God, and any evidence for God is evidence for the supernatural.

Which god? Ghosts, spirits, etc. existing doesn't necessarily make the Christian God more likely. People believed in these things long before the birth of monotheistic religions. If you divorce yourself from dogma, there is no reason why an afterlife or good or bad spirits would require that there be some sort of omnipotent and omniscient cosmic creator. So I suppose proof of the supernatural would automatically make every god and pantheon throughout history more likely to exist?

Evil is the absence of good, just as cold is the absence of heat.

The notion that good and evil are relative is absurd, and no one lives that way. It is easy to give lip service to believing in a relative moral standard, but deep down everyone knows this is simply not true. There are acts that we all agree are evil.

Yes, and as I alluded to before, this has a basis in evolution and is related to the fact that we must live in groups to survive, not in any objective order imposed upon the cosmos that exists independently of human thought. Some things that are considered good and evil today would not have been in the past, though.

For example, in some parts of the world and in some historical contexts, it is/was considered "okay" to murder baby girls in order to prevent the financial burden and loss of labor they'd place on their family later in life. Ritualistic human sacrifices to the gods was also considered very good and necessary in many cultures across the world.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Cybele

[xyroblaze]

Your conclusions are wrong. What you describe is called the "Problem of Evil". There have been volumes written on the subject and the answers are well know among theologians. If you spend the time searching, i.e. if you genuinely want to seek the truth you will find your concerns are answered.

thanks for the heads up, i've now got some reading material for my shift tonight

[xyroblaze]

that really didnt take long, so, the problem of evil states that if there is evil there has to be no god. but many theologists believe that if god didnt allow evil to exist then it would infringe on free willl, easy enough to understand

*Problem of natural evil

Free will is not the only cause of evil in the world. For instance, David Attenborough often tells this story:

My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And , 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy'.

to be honest david attenborough has hit the nail on the head in proving that there are evils in the world that god could have avoided if he had not created such things and also does not infringe on free will because the parasitic worm would have no concept of right and wrong only survival and it must do what it needs to survive. but if the creationists are right and god did create this then he would have created something that cause pain and suffering which he himself is directly responsible for.

*source wiki problem of evil

[markprice]

Knowledge is no defense. You can know and be powerless. It happens all the time.

Not if you know how to defend yourself.

[markprice]

Unfortunately, if the divine does in fact exist, experience of it is beyond the reach of most people--either that or those who claim to experience it are just extremely credulous people lacking critical thinking skills. I don't think denial is any more presumptuous than the claim that it does exist in the absence of compelling, transferrable evidence. Let's leave it at that and let this discussion get slightly more back on topic.

Why would you want to transfer evidence? When some guy says he was saved from a mountain lion by an Angel, who are you to presume he is lying--that story was compiled with many others who were saved by angels...endless examples of divine intervention and you presume they are all "credulous".

[markprice]

Maybe good and bad, light and dark, are just the words we use the discribe the differents between the two. Is evil worse than bad? Maybe some bad just seems worse than bad, like killking a child. It is bad to kill a child but it is evil to eat any part of the child you have killed. So what causes it to go from bad to evil? Maybe it is just our inability to accept that someone who is only bad would eat a dead child. So he must be evil instead of just bad. Maybe there really isn't anything thats evil, just what we as humans have tittled something that seems worse than bad. I don't believe in demons, so maybe there is really nothing other than good and bad, maybe just varrying degrees of good and bad. As I sit here watching the evening news and see that 29 thousand children have starved to death and there are still 3 million people starving to death. So is this bad or evil? So many starving children and so many mothers praying to god to save them. If I believed in God, I would say that he is evil.He is the one with the power to stop it but choses not to. We are all a part of this wonderful planet, we are no more special that the rabbit being chased by the wolf. Some days we get away and some days we don't.

It is the natural world weather you are man or wolf, rabbit or victim. Which ever end you are are on dictates weather you are good or bad, devine or evil. Maybe I am right, maybe there is no God and we are truly governed by the laws of nature. So if you are the rabbit in the jaws of the wolf then you would say, "Yes, the wolf is evil." becuse he is going to eat you for dinner. But the wolf believes himself devine.

Rocketgirl

(I know, I am a terrible speller!)

I said this before: choice is what separates bad from evil. Animals don't have the choice because they do what is natural for them, and so there cannot be evil in nature. When a person chooses bad it's a whole other deal: Evil. This is basic philosophy/logic.

[markprice]

It goes with out saying that the occult is a mishmash of beliefs. The net of deception is greater that way. Being a mishmash gives it all the more hiding spots. Darkness hides from being exposed, but it's always there.

You do realize that if knowledge was not hidden it would be destroyed, right? So they hid everything in every way they could. I'm no expert on the occult, but you seem to take the position of a church that would destroy knowledge, because the church said so--it was their job/law to do that--? If they had to hide the light in the dark it does not mean that the light was darkness/evil. Evil has hidden itself much more efficiently within the church, anyway.

Edited August 8, 2011 by markprice

[markprice]

that really didnt take long, so, the problem of evil states that if there is evil there has to be no god.

what?

God is beyond good and evil.

[OrdinaryClay]

I'd say most mainstream religions are huge deceptions as well, but there's no point in arguing with fundamentalists. Tell me, which has inspired more chaos and violence in the modern world: occult philosophies or mainstream religions?

Which god? Ghosts, spirits, etc. existing doesn't necessarily make the Christian God more likely. People believed in these things long before the birth of monotheistic religions. If you divorce yourself from dogma, there is no reason why an afterlife or good or bad spirits would require that there be some sort of omnipotent and omniscient cosmic creator. So I suppose proof of the supernatural would automatically make every god and pantheon throughout history more likely to exist?

Yes, and as I alluded to before, this has a basis in evolution and is related to the fact that we must live in groups to survive, not in any objective order imposed upon the cosmos that exists independently of human thought. Some things that are considered good and evil today would not have been in the past, though.

For example, in some parts of the world and in some historical contexts, it is/was considered "okay" to murder baby girls in order to prevent the financial burden and loss of labor they'd place on their family later in life. Ritualistic human sacrifices to the gods was also considered very good and necessary in many cultures across the world.

What anyone considers mainstream to be is meaningless as far as truth and the supernatural is concerned. The question is what is the truth. The evidence clearly points to there being a Creator. That Creator loves us and deserves our unmitigated worship. Furthermore, arguing is meaningless and petty. I don't engage in it. It doesn't matter who imagines themselves being right. All that matters is the truth.

Christianity has inspired no violence. The dark heart of men, which the occult fertilizes, inspires the hideous crimes we see in history.

The case for the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Christ is made through a bulk of evidence not simply through the existence of the supernatural. For example, the Creator has to be outside the universe in order for Him to have created it. This then allows us to conclude that any deity such as the Greek pantheon and many many others as being false.

Evolution did not magically instill in us an absolute sense of morality. Lions kill, but they don't murder. Humans murder. There is a fundamental difference. All humans have a fundamental sense of right and wrong. Just because they bend there morays for selfish reasons does not mean they think they are being moral.

No society considers it morally good to kill arbitrarily. You are confusing societal acceptance and an economy of benefits with morality. Societies and individuals do things for benefit, that DOES NOT mean they think it is morally good to do so.

[OrdinaryClay]

that really didnt take long, so, the problem of evil states that if there is evil there has to be no god. but many theologists believe that if god didnt allow evil to exist then it would infringe on free willl, easy enough to understand

*Problem of natural evil

Free will is not the only cause of evil in the world. For instance, David Attenborough often tells this story:

My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And , 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy'.

to be honest david attenborough has hit the nail on the head in proving that there are evils in the world that god could have avoided if he had not created such things and also does not infringe on free will because the parasitic worm would have no concept of right and wrong only survival and it must do what it needs to survive. but if the creationists are right and god did create this then he would have created something that cause pain and suffering which he himself is directly responsible for.

*source wiki problem of evil

If you are truly seeking understanding don't use wikipedia for the source of spiritual subjects. Only a fool would trust those who write wikipedia articles with your soul.

Suffering caused by the natural world is terrible I admit, but it is not evil. It just is. We all die. Some people die in car accidents and some die slowly in bed from heart failure. We live in fragile biological vessels.

Please read deeper on the subject. Try googling William Lane Craig. He is a Christian theologian and philosopher.

[xyroblaze]

to be honest i'd trust wikipedia a hell of a lot more than the bible, at least if i wanted i could have found evidential proof and talk to someone who wrote a wikipedia article

also why would i read up on someone who is already biased towards the bible and against atheism, of course he's going to say "god did this" and "god did that" but never the less here's some of what i thought and some more references

the kalam cosmological argument, used mostly to disprove athiestic beliefs which is as follows

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe had a cause.

lets start with number 1 (and the only one i will quote. source's at the end for further reading)

The problem is that the premises of his argument are not true. His first premise, Everything that begins to exist has a cause collapses in light of our understanding of quantum mechanics. For example, scientists have found that particles of energy may come into existence, completely uncaused, in empty space[3]. Another exception to the Law of Cause and Effect is found in the decay of Carbon-14 atoms: After every interval of 5730 years, half of the Carbon-14 present in a given measurement will have decayed into Nitrogen-14. All of these carbon atoms are identical, yet they decay at different times. Why is this? If all the atoms are exactly the same, shouldnt they decay at precisely the same time? Since they do not, most scientists have come to believe that atomic decay is spontaneous (and therefore uncaused).[/i]

source Pages 123-125, Victor Stenger, God: The Failed Hypothesis, Prometheus Books 2007

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2009/03/15/a-critical-examination-of-the-kalam-cosmological-argument/

any more you want me to look up?

Edited August 9, 2011 by xyroblaze

[xyroblaze]

Christianity has inspired no violence. The dark heart of men, which the occult fertilizes, inspires the hideous crimes we see in history.

so what was the crusades then?

or Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT, Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT, Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Isaiah 14:21 NAB, Hosea 9:11-16 NLT, Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT, Jeremiah 48:10 NAB

especially Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT and Numbers 25:1-9 NLT

[OrdinaryClay]

to be honest i'd trust wikipedia a hell of a lot more than the bible, at least if i wanted i could have found evidential proof and talk to someone who wrote a wikipedia article

also why would i read up on someone who is already biased towards the bible and against atheism, of course he's going to say "god did this" and "god did that" but never the less here's some of what i thought and some more references

the kalam cosmological argument, used mostly to disprove athiestic beliefs which is as follows

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe had a cause.

lets start with number 1 (and the only one i will quote. source's at the end for further reading)

The problem is that the premises of his argument are not true. His first premise, “Everything that begins to exist has a cause” collapses in light of our understanding of quantum mechanics. For example, scientists have found that particles of energy may come into existence, completely uncaused, in empty space[3]. Another exception to the Law of Cause and Effect is found in the decay of Carbon-14 atoms: After every interval of 5730 years, half of the Carbon-14 present in a given measurement will have decayed into Nitrogen-14. All of these carbon atoms are identical, yet they decay at different times. Why is this? If all the atoms are exactly the same, shouldn’t they decay at precisely the same time? Since they do not, most scientists have come to believe that atomic decay is spontaneous (and therefore uncaused).[/i]

source Pages 123-125, Victor Stenger, God: The Failed Hypothesis, Prometheus Books 2007

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2009/03/15/a-critical-examination-of-the-kalam-cosmological-argument/

any more you want me to look up?

Wikipedia is a hive of intrigue. http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/08/05/1621200/Wikipedia-Losing-Contributors-Says-Wales

If you had read as you suggest than you would have known that Stenger in his debate with Craig looked foolish, and again looked foolish when he showed up at latter debates as an audience member. QM is the result of the laws of physics, which means these events are caused by the laws of physics. Creation is the act of creating the laws of physics. Don't be bamboozled by vague answers. Think about things first.

Watch the Stenger Craig debate. It is free.

[OrdinaryClay]

so what was the crusades then?

Those who perpetrated the crusades were not in fellowship with Christ.

or Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT, Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT, Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT, Isaiah 14:21 NAB, Hosea 9:11-16 NLT, Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT, Jeremiah 48:10 NAB

especially Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT and Numbers 25:1-9 NLT

I thought you did not believe the Bible, or is it the case you believe those parts that make you feel better about your position?

[xyroblaze]

did you even read what the post was in reply to,

OrdinaryClay, on 08 August 2011 - 02:55 AM, said:

Christianity has inspired no violence. The dark heart of men, which the occult fertilizes, inspires the hideous crimes we see in history.

my response proved to you that the bible has inspired violence over and over agaim, it is not what i believe, it is not what i have written, but you can read about it in the passages that i have referenced, and by the way, i never said anything about christ, the people on the crusades were christian, if christianity hadn't inspired violence there wouldnt have been the mass slaughter of millions of muslims, all because of what it says in the bible

....

oh and i dont need to believe the bible to read it,

let me ask you this question, why do you believe in christ, why not hindu, pagan, sikh, buddhist or one of the many other religions in the world, or the thousands that have passed before our time, because in each of those religions the people believed in their god(s) as much as you do for your god, so what makes you right and them wrong?