If God Exists

[Unorthodox Thesis]

Fluffybunny, that actually made sense. But what I don't get is

why don't people follow the Bible. Just for the record, I think that

most churches are making their own doctrine rather than following

the doctrine of God. Since Jesus did't come to condemn us, but

to save us, we should do the same. Not to condemn people!

Where did religion go wrong? I don't know, but if someone truly

lives by the Bible that person will have a good life. The problem is

that most people are afraid to interpret the Bible.

[Fluffybunny]

I have been reading the bible for many years. I interpret it myself, without the input of a bible school, or a theology class. Although much of what is in the bible is very good in my opinion, there are fundemental flaws in the bible that I cannot get past. Too much information to get into in this thread, but suffice it to say that there are many mistakes, inequalities, and judgements in the bible that are archaic and do not fit in this current world, nor should they.

I don't want to start a flame war, but I think that it is impossible to get past/overlook the fundemental flaws in the bible and moreso in the current churches of today...

People in my country have the freedom to choose what religion they want, if any at all. That is a good thing...

[Stellar]

whatever. brainwhased or not, I think God does exist,

and they should close this topic because your argument

won't change anyone's opinion. And also, what do people hope

to accoplish by prooving or disprooving God?

270764[/snapback]

Im not trying to say you're brainwashed if you believe in God, but surely you can see why #17 is NOT evidence? How can it be? "The bible say so, so that means creationism is true!" yeah well, the Koran says something different I imagine, so do all the other religions. Oh look, im gonna write down on a piece of paper "And God told him HE created evolution!" and then I guess that counts as evidence for evolution?

[parks]

Why am I on this discussion forum.Because of love for each one of you.I am only motivated becausee of love-as every christian should be.Does God exist?

The answer is yes.A big YES.Why because I am here to tell you that I am not a deciever,a crackpot or motivated by anything other than love and to tell you that yes this small insignificant human being with all his normal trials and tribulations in life and his downfalls and sin-like every human being busy everyday trying to come to terms with understanding Gods meaning for my life, has first hand personal evidence that there is an Almighty God and I have had a physical encounter with an angle which I have shared with many people.It is true and it is a fact.Whether you want to explain this away in your human ability or not and find another defensless theory -like most of use do-then do that.

I will share this experience with you shortly.It costs alot to type on line so please if someone can tell me how to write off line then send the next letter I will be grateful.Sorry I am a bit thick when it comes to technology.Thanks and have a lovely dayI will be back for this second part.Remember you are here because of love.Its not what you think it is.Go read it up.Love is about dying yes choosing and dying for the love and promotion of another not yourself.But thats for another day.I love you whether you like that or not.I don't care who you are where your from.I love you.Take it or leaveit.

[Stellar]

This is it. I'm gonna start using absolutes now, seeing as how everyone else uses them.

Does God exist?

The answer is yes.A big YES.

The answer is no. A big NO. N-O. NO.

Why because I am here to tell you that I am not a deciever,a crackpot or motivated by anything other than love and to tell you that yes this small insignificant human being with all his normal trials and tribulations in life and his downfalls and sin-like every human being busy everyday trying to come to terms with understanding Gods meaning for my life, has first hand personal evidence that there is an Almighty God and I have had a physical encounter with an angle which I have shared with many people.

First of all, you saying you're not a crackpot or a deciever means absolutely zilch.

Second of all... present your evidence. I dont care what you say you experianced because people come here claiming to have experienced the same thing, but about another religion... and for the most part... because someone who wants to believe something, will accept stuff as "evidence" too easily... that or the mind can come up with the "evidence" itsself.

It is true and it is a fact.

It is false and it is not a fact.

Whether you want to explain this away in your human ability or not and find another defensless theory -like most of use do-then do that.

What do you mean "defensless theory"? I can defend the theories I believe in adequetly.

I will share this experience with you shortly.

And if I told you I had an experiance where some angelic being told me you were right, christians are being controlled by an evil god, and that some other religion is right...?

It costs alot to type on line so please if someone can tell me how to write off line then send the next letter I will be grateful.

Copy + Paste

Sorry I am a bit thick when it comes to technology.

Dont worry, lots of people are, until they learn to use it efficiently.

[trublvr]

I don't want to put words in anyones mouths, but to answer the question you asked I would have to say that disproving god would go along way towards ending the horrible control issues that the church has been guilty of for so long. Perhaps without the threat of eternal damnation hanging over their heads, people can just be people, without the constant fear that the church tries to instil into everyone in order to have control over them.

The effects on our society from "god" have been more negative than positive, and I know I am not alone hoping to see current day religions go the way of Apollo and Zues...

Fluffy,

You assume a lot in believing that the only reason that Christ-followers practice goodness is because we are living in incessant fear of hell-fire. You are also unreasonably optimistic in assuming that people will be "good" without God. What's interesting is that I keep hearing folks talk about how we don't need God to be good, and yet when we survey the 20th century, we see the blood-shed caused by atheism. I'm in no way trying to suggest that if one is an athiest that one is predisposed to murder. But it is interesting that entire societies that have been atheistic have performed grievous acts of inhumanity and murder.

It is true that many have done evil in the name of religion. More specifically, many have performed grave evil in the name if Jesus Christ. But why do you think that people are so upset and enraged when they read about and witness the hypocrisy of supposed-Christians? It is because they harbor an expectation that if one names the name of Jesus and claims to be commited to the Way of Christ, that one will not murder, persecute, or exploit people. Peoples' outrage over hypocrisy is an indirect--but very powerful--testimony to their expectations that Christians should hold to what they believe. And they are right to be outraged. They are justified in that outrage. As a Christian, I can say that perpetrating evil in Jesus's name is blasphemous because the standard of truth to which I hold is absolute and transcendant in nature and life-giving in character and persona.

But when atheistic regimes (like the communists and fascists of the 20th century) butcher people, what you are seeing is the outgrowth of godlessness. And then what can we appeal to? If humankind is the measure of all things and God a distant fairy-tale, then what is to make one expression of humanity better than another? We not only lack the measuring stick by which to gauge what is right and wrong, but we also have very little to be righteously indignant about. Currently, it is very popular to site the various evils done in the name of Christianity or some other theistic religion, and then to say that because of these evils that religion (in a monotheistic sense) ought to be done away with (and some of this involves distortion of history). But what of all of the evil that atheism has wrought in the world? Few are quick to speak of this.

[Mekorig]

But when atheistic regimes (like the communists and fascists of the 20th century) butcher people, what you are seeing is the outgrowth of godlessness.  And then what can we appeal to?  If humankind is the measure of all things and God a distant fairy-tale, then what is to make one expression of humanity better than another?  We not only lack the measuring stick by which to gauge what is right and wrong, but we also have very little to be righteously indignant about.  Currently, it is very popular to site the various evils done in the name of Christianity or some other theistic religion, and then to say that because of these evils that religion (in a monotheistic sense) ought to be done away with (and some of this involves distortion of history).  But what of all of the evil that atheism has wrought in the world?  Few are quick to speak of this.

271117[/snapback]

Here si some data i get from here:

http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?act=idx

Wir glauben auf dieser Erde alleine Adolf Hitler. Wir glauben, dass der Nationalsozialismus der allein seligmachende Glaube ist für unser Volk. Wir glauben, dass es einen Herrgott im Himmel gibt, der uns geschaffen hat, wir glauben, dass es einen Herrgott im Himmel gibt, der uns führt, der uns lenkt, und der uns sichtbar segnet. Und wir glauben, dass dieser Herrgott uns Adolf Hitler gesandt hat, damit Deutschland für alle Ewigkeit ein Fundament werde.

Heil Hitler.

Translation (as exact as I can translate the crap):

"We believe on this earth in Adolf Hitler alone. We believe that national socialism is the only faith that brings salvation for our race. We believe that there is a Lord in heaven who created us, we believe that the Lord in heaven guides and visibly blesses us. And we believe that the Lord sent us Adolf Hitler so that Germany will be a foundation for eternity. Heil Hitler."

Here is the original in German

QUOTE

"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he [Hitler] was sent to us by God to save Germany."

~Hermann Göring ('Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen,' Berkley Books, 1990)

QUOTE

"The Führer wanted to achieve the unification of the Protestant Evangelical Churches by appointing a REICH BISHOP, so that there would be a high Protestant church dignitary as well as a high Catholic church dignitary."

~Hermann Göring (Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945, Vol.9)

With the Catholic Church the Führer ordered a concordat to be concluded by Herr Von Papen. Shortly before that agreement was concluded by Herr Von Papen I visited the Pope myself. I had numerous connections with the higher Catholic clergy because of my Catholic mother, and thus-- I am myself a Protestant-- I had a view of both camps."

~Hermann Göring (Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945, Vol.9)

QUOTE

"You Einsatztruppen (task forces) are called upon to fulfill a repulsive duty. But you are soldiers who have to carry out every order unconditionally. You have a responsibility before God and Hitler for everything that is happening. I myself hate this bloody business and I have been moved to the depths of my soul. But I am obeying the highest law by doing my duty. Man must defend himself against bedbugs and rats-- against vermin."

~Heinrich Himmler, in a speech to the SS guards, ('Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen,' Berkley Books, 1990)

My father was really a bigot. He was very strict and fanatical. I learned that my father took a religious oath at the time of the birth of my younger sister, dedicating me to God and the priesthood, and after that leading a Joseph married life [celibacy]. He directed my entire youthful education toward the goal of making me a priest. I had to pray and go to church endlessly, do penance over the slightest misdeed-- praying as punishment for any little unkindness to my sister, or something like that."

~Rudolf Hoess ('Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen,' Berkley Books, 1990)

QUOTE

"A Jew is for me an object of disgust. I feel like vomiting when I see one. Christ could not possibly have been a Jew. It is not necessary to prove that scientifically-- it is a fact."

~Joseph Goebbels, in his attempt to win the eternal gratitude of Hitler, (Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen," Berkley Books, 1990)

QUOTE

"We have a feeling that Germany has been transformed into a great house of God, including all classes, professions and creeds, where the Fuhrer as our mediator stood before the throne of the Almighty."

~Joseph Goebbels, in a radio broadcast, 19 April 1936

QUOTE

"Understanding sometimes is not enough to explain something. Only faith is sufficient. The Führer in Nuremberg said: "Woe to him who does not believe!" He who does not believe has no soul. He is empty. He has no ideals. He has nothing to live for. He has no sunshine, no light, no joy in life. He is a poor, poor man. What is wealth? What are possessions? What does it all mean? Problems come despite them, only faith is left. Woe to him who does not believe!"

~Robert Ley, Reichorganisationsleiter and head of the Nazi German Labor Front (DAF),

in his speech, "Fate-- I believe!"

QUOTE

"If the danger of the reproduction of that curse of God in the Jewish blood is finally to come to an end, then there is only one way-- the extermination of that people whose father is the devil..."

~Julius Streicher paraphrasing John 8:44 as his justification for extermination of Jews (Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945, Vol. 12)

QUOTE

"Adolf Hitler gave us back our faith. He showed us the true meaning of religion. He came to take us from the faith of our fathers? No, he has come to renew for us the faith of our fathers and to make us new and better things. Just as Christ made his twelve disciples into a band faithful to the martyr's death whose faith shook the Roman Empire, so now we witness the same spectacle again: Adolf Hitler is the true Holy Ghost."

~Hans Kerrl, addressing SA leaders, Brunswick, 19 November 1935

(interestingly enough, the same HG claim has been made about Christian cultist Moon's wife...)

.......There has been too much cod-psychology about Stalin's childhood but this much is certain: raised in a poor priest-ridden household, he was damaged by violence, insecurity and suspicion but inspired by the local traditions of religious dogmatism, blood-feuding and romantic brigandry. "Stalin did not like to speak about his parents and childhood" but it is meaningless to over-analyse his psychology. He was emotionally stunted and lacked empathy yet his antennae were supersensitive. He was abnormal but Stalin himself understood that politicians are rarely normal: History, he wrote later, is full of "abnormal people."

The seminary provided his only formal education. This boarding school's catechismic teaching and "Jesuitical methods" of "surveillance, spying, invasion of the inner life, the violation of people's feelings" repelled, but impressed, Soso so acutely that he spent the rest of his life refining their style and methods. It stimulated this autodidact's passion for reading but he became an atheist in the first year. "I got some friends," he said, "and a bitter debate started between the believers and us!" He soon embraced Marxism.....

Well, its looks like the Atheist regimes arent soo atheist after all. Face it: Religions bring only ignorance and pain to humankind.

[trublvr]

"We believe on this earth in Adolf Hitler alone. We believe that national socialism is the only faith that brings salvation for our race. We believe that there is a Lord in heaven who created us, we believe that the Lord in heaven guides and visibly blesses us. And we believe that the Lord sent us Adolf Hitler so that Germany will be a foundation for eternity. Heil Hitler."

Mekorig,

First of all, greetings to you. To my recollection we've never been touch.

As for your quotes, they at least help to make the case that the Nazis were not and did not think themselves to be Christian.

As to the various (and at times contradictory) quotations we find here, let's be clear: Showing that some madmen came up with a religious justification to legitimize their evil is not the same as demonstrating that their evil was a product of religion. In fact, many people adopt and appeal to religious language and inspiration to justify godlessness, when they don't even believe in what they are saying. For instance,

QUOTE

"If the danger of the reproduction of that curse of God in the Jewish blood is finally to come to an end, then there is only one way-- the extermination of that people whose father is the devil..."

~Julius Streicher paraphrasing John 8:44 as his justification for extermination of Jews (Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945, Vol. 12)

If by quoting this you are trying to show that by reading John 8.44, this German believed that murdering Jews was justified by Christ, you run into serious problems. Had Streicher actually believed in Jesus or in God, he would kinda have to comes to terms with the fact that Jesus himself was Jewish and that the God Jesus incessantly spoke of was the architect not only of Judaism but also of the Jewish nation (in addition to the fact that this quote is yanked COMPLETELY out of context). When people such as the Nazis make statements like this, we've got to see that they are not espousing these things out of a sense of devotion, but out of a sense of self-justification. Their use of religion as the object of said justification doesn't speak ill of the religion, but it does reveal that their evil was in full operation outside of any religious influence.

By the by, much of the things that Hitler said in the way of justifying his murderous acts by appealing to Christianity was just window-dressing to basically cow Christians into a false sense of security in Nazi Germany. Here's quote from him that sheds light on his true feelings: "It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity, because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and in blood." He went on to say, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

Also from Hitler: "Do you really believe the masses will ever be Christian again? Nonsense. Never again. The tale is finished..but we can hasten matters. The parsons will be made to dig their own graves.." And the Polish priests were made to do so.

Religion is often appealed to by atheistic people for a variety of ends. Saddam Hussein, for instance, is not truly Muslim. All Muslims that I know (Sunni, Shi'ite, and Sufi) are quick to say that he is not a Muslim, but that he used Islam to get what he wanted. Satanists, for example (and I'm not trying to say that satanists are alike in character to Hussein), don't really believe in satan; it's just that they are so ticked off with Christianity that they have adopted satanic rituals and the like as a mode of self-expression to demonstrate their defiance toward anything Christian. I've met Wiccans who are atheists (most are not) and for whom Wiccan religious language, ritual, and symbolism is merely a way that they can express their disdain toward Christianity. And many Republicans are highly atheistic, but they utilize Judeo-Christian language and symbols as vehicles to further conservative aims and to garner the support of Christian constituents and to denounce liberalism.

Something I've always found interesting, though, concerning Hitler, the Reich, and religion. What is known about Hitler and the Reich is that they practiced some strange forms of paganism that at times involved appeals to many of the deities that are a part of the Wiccan pantheon. Yet I've never heard anyone try to link Hitler and Wicca. Keep in mind, I know that Wiccans without question denounce the evil of the Third Reich. I am not trying to suggest that they do not. However, if we employ the same logic in attempting to connect the inhumanity of the Reich with any particular religious practice, why can't we make the connection with Wicca?

As for your final quote concerning Stalin:

.......There has been too much cod-psychology about Stalin's childhood but this much is certain: raised in a poor priest-ridden household, he was damaged by violence, insecurity and suspicion but inspired by the local traditions of religious dogmatism, blood-feuding and romantic brigandry. "Stalin did not like to speak about his parents and childhood" but it is meaningless to over-analyse his psychology. He was emotionally stunted and lacked empathy yet his antennae were supersensitive. He was abnormal but Stalin himself understood that politicians are rarely normal: History, he wrote later, is full of "abnormal people."

The seminary provided his only formal education. This boarding school's catechismic teaching and "Jesuitical methods" of "surveillance, spying, invasion of the inner life, the violation of people's feelings" repelled, but impressed, Soso so acutely that he spent the rest of his life refining their style and methods. It stimulated this autodidact's passion for reading but he became an atheist in the first year. "I got some friends," he said, "and a bitter debate started between the believers and us!" He soon embraced Marxism...

I think this is a feeble attempt to say that because he ran into some bad priests, that this explains why he became a Marxist and ultimately a mass-murderer. I don't think so. Having a bad experience with religious people (here, Christians) doesn't neccesarily lead to this. Also, I find this account to be highly romantic in nature: The poor, poor Stalin child turned to the supposedly loving arms of the church and then the evil priests (because it's easy to blame Catholics for everything these days) let him down, subsequently flinging him into the arms of Marxism... I'm not trying to legitimize the evil of religious people or anything, nor am I trying to turn a blind eye to it. However, I'm more inclined (barring further evidence to the contrary) that Stalin became what he became of his own volition.

[Unorthodox Thesis]

"We believe on this earth in Adolf Hitler alone. We believe that national socialism is the only faith that brings salvation for our race. We believe that there is a Lord in heaven who created us, we believe that the Lord in heaven guides and visibly blesses us. And we believe that the Lord sent us Adolf Hitler so that Germany will be a foundation for eternity. Heil Hitler."

wow, you're either not familiar with Hitler and what he did, or

you're some evil dude trying to take over the world!

Edited September 18, 2004 by Norman

[crosswarrior]

There have been many evils performed in the name of the Christian Church; just as there have been terrible things done in the name of Buddism, Hinduism, Islam, Atheism... the list goes on and on. Man will always justify what he does by some belief. Even if his actions are not in keeping with that belief.

[aquatus1]

Terrible things done in the name of Buddhism? And Atheism?

[crosswarrior]

The Japanese claimed that they were furthering Buddism in WWII when they raped and pillaged whole cities of woman and children. The Soviets in China (and until recently the Soviet Union) still persecute people in the name of science and enlightenment. And lets not forget the French Revolution if we want to talk about atroscities done in the name of enlightenment.

[trublvr]

Crosswarrior,

Excellent points on this issue, CW. Good job.

[aquatus1]

Really? I was not aware of that. I'm afraid that social studies has never been my strong suit.

[nate0192]

QUOTE

"We believe on this earth in Adolf Hitler alone. We believe that national socialism is the only faith that brings salvation for our race. We believe that there is a Lord in heaven who created us, we believe that the Lord in heaven guides and visibly blesses us. And we believe that the Lord sent us Adolf Hitler so that Germany will be a foundation for eternity. Heil Hitler."

wow, you're either not familiar with Hitler and what he did, or

you're some evil dude trying to take over the world! w00t.gif disgust.gif

he wasn't saying that's what he believed, he was making a point that religion is bad for society by quoting the beliefs of Hitlers followers

[beowulf]

The Japanese claimed that they were furthering Buddism in WWII when they raped and pillaged whole cities of woman and children

I had meant to respond to this very false bit of misinformation but just now refound where it was. The Japanese practiced Shinto (Ancestor Worship) and Bushido (Way of the Warrior) as the official religion of the nation until Buddhism was forced upon them by the Allied forces after the Japanese surrender in 1946. There had been a small Buddhist group in Japanese society for centuries but they never had social influence.

lets not forget the French Revolution if we want to talk about atroscities done in the name of enlightenment.

But it was Xian enlightment....The French Revolution was recognized (reluctantly) by the Catholic Church, but only after it was a foregone conclusion. Never once did the revolutionary committee issue anti-Xian edicts, and many times acted in concert with the Church.