Years of liberal dogma spawned a generation

[ohio traveler]

I agree with the OP, too many are being rewarded for doing nothing but scratching their ass all day and drinking beer/watching soaps cause they can, the dole just keeps on coming every month and that is more then enough for them.. Especially if they have 15 kids running around dirty and unwashed, that also improves the situation since the more kids you dropped the more money you get and screw educating, clothing and caring about them. And yes I am not PC nor will I ever be when it comes to speaking the truth...

Government's should just erect tent cities for people like that to live in. Quit rewarding them with just free money. Tents, a cot, and some field rations to eat should just about do it.

[tapirmusic]

Ok but I just don't see how it's years of liberal dogma when the capitalists gained so much.

maybe you should repeat yourself again...

or possibly you could add something to this discussion by listing at least 2 things 'capitalists' have gained because of the London riots.

[conspiracybeliever]

maybe you should repeat yourself again...

or possibly you could add something to this discussion by listing at least 2 things 'capitalists' have gained because of the London riots.

This is the title of the article:

Years of liberal dogma spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent youthRate Topic:

Look around you. Who else has gained in this economy? Where is the money? If the liberal dogma created this horrible generation how did capitalists gain so much? You can't argue all the money is sitting at the top. Those people are richer than they ever have been. If all the money was going to the welfare dependent at the bottom of the human ladder how did the welfare dependents at the top end up with so much of it? Did I repeat myself enough? Now why don't you add to the discussion another complaint about the people with nothing because you know you aren't capable of doing anything about the real criminals... the welfare recipients at the top.

[Indiogene]

I rather live in a comparably "liberal" society than a traditionalist "conservative" one, because the liberals in the last 50 years made it a priority to improve living standards for lower-income and under-represented groups of people in society. Also from my own experiences with a mental disability (high-functioning Autism) and not inherited a great deal of family wealth from a "wealthy" ancestor, even though I have enough to get by on my own through budgeting skills and I work at least part-time to support my family.

But I question some liberal policies on stifling freedoms of speech and expression out of fear in appearing "racist" when it's clearly not the case...and a constant imposition of "nanny state" laws to have someone pay a $200 fine by the traffic cops by the driver forgetting to wear a seat belt, to me is a low blow. Teachers' unions, prison guards and public sector employees are said to abused their contract bargaining powers to create laws, enforce age-old attitudes and earn more cash than our presidents or governors when they can't afford it.

[farandaway]

The only thing I see that capitalists have gained from liberal social programs is their taxes being sucked into a black hole. Where do you think the money for the infrastructure of society comes from? Roads, schools, police and fire squads, defense and public transportation are all products of capitalists doing business. Of course they make a profit, there's not much point in doing business without it, right?

Liberals have basically told people, "it's okay, your government will take care of you, you don't have to do anything yourselves."

The government will pay for their food, education and medical expenses. All they have to do is play video games and watch TV, and stay out of everybody's hair. Then they riot because they want more and they're bored.

If these thugs think they can improve their lives by rioting, they're in for a dramatic wake up call. Their lives are about to become alot more dismal. Their neighborhoods are destroyed, and there will be fewer jobs, higher prices and more distrust.

And what do capitalists gain from the riots? Higher insurance premiums. Higher costs of doing business (which will be passed on to consumers, BTW). They get to pay to rebuild their neighborhoods and businesses, if they don't decide to pack up and move away altogether.

Where will the money and jobs come from if they can't afford to rebuild?

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

The only thing I see that capitalists have gained from liberal social programs is their taxes being sucked into a black hole. Where do you think the money for the infrastructure of society comes from? Roads, schools, police and fire squads, defense and public transportation are all products of capitalists doing business. Of course they make a profit, there's not much point in doing business without it, right?

Liberals have basically told people, "it's okay, your government will take care of you, you don't have to do anything yourselves."

The government will pay for their food, education and medical expenses. All they have to do is play video games and watch TV, and stay out of everybody's hair. Then they riot because they want more and they're bored.

If these thugs think they can improve their lives by rioting, they're in for a dramatic wake up call. Their lives are about to become alot more dismal. Their neighborhoods are destroyed, and there will be fewer jobs, higher prices and more distrust.

And what do capitalists gain from the riots? Higher insurance premiums. Higher costs of doing business (which will be passed on to consumers, BTW). They get to pay to rebuild their neighborhoods and businesses, if they don't decide to pack up and move away altogether.

Where will the money and jobs come from if they can't afford to rebuild?

Replace certain words with American unions and the statements still ring true. LOL

[Indiogene]

The London Riot received a good weight of criticism by conservatives in America, claimed the "old European style of socialism or colonialism over non-white peoples" continue to keep down or oppress African and Asian subjects..."in the mother countries". To me, their opinions are ungrounded in real hard truth of the current economic ailments affecting everyone in the world at this moment, and the British are no exception of what they're going through: high unemployment, depletion of public social services and distrust of government officials. Politicians are under control of their right-handed man: megacorporations and bankers, whom pull the strings to made their business decisions, and what's happening is their transactions are all negative.

Edited August 12, 2011 by DeMikeDe

[Wandering]

The riots were not political, they were envy and greed. You have what I want, so I will take it. If I cannot have what you have, I will destroy it. You have given me every opportunity to have what you have, but you have also given me every opportunity to not bother. You paid me to go to school and fail. You paid me to stay at home on the sofa all day and fail. You will pay for my housing, my taxes, my heating and my beer. I will repay you with spite and destruction. It is my right. I am equal to you. You cannot touch me because I have chosen to be “deprived” but I can threaten, rob and steal from you because you gave me a label that says I can have anything I damn well like.

So, the much lauded “equality” that we have built over the past 50 years is nothing more than an excuse to be feckless and lawless and have others rebuild what you have torn down in a fit of jealous rage. And it’s my fault, of course.

We have tolerated the expansion of a feral class of youth. We have celebrated “diversity” whilst they have celebrated the freedom under the auspices of “equality” to turn parts of London into gang run shooting alleys.

We have spawned an entire generation that is not educated enough to earn a living from anything other than drug dealing and crime. A dangerous generation that values “status” above morals, materialism above society and has no concept of “improvement”

WE told kids it was OK to be a gangsta. We protected them from the consequences of their actions under the banner of equality and diversity. We told them it was fine to act and behave as a lawless thugs as if challenging that behaviour would somehow offend them.

Whilst “da bruvvers” are celebrating an intake of free widescreen TVs, those who defend them by inaction against their lawlessness are preparing to complain to me that no businesses or jobs will come to the areas they trashed. And it will be my fault. Again.

None of the looters over the weekend is “trapped”. All of them make a choice, as we all do. Live your life as you see fit. If you choose drug dealing, theft and violence as a career choice, don’t you dare call me a bigot when I refuse to support your “diversity”

Here’s a plan.

You get nothing. You want it, go and get it with hard work, application, self discipline, ambition, pride and self respect. You will not get a “certificate” for trying, you will not have your bills paid by me “to get you started”. You are entitled to nothing from me. You will stand on your own two feet and take responsibility for your own life. You will not rely on the endless handouts of hardworking taxpayers, you will not beg Politicians for a bigger slice of the cake you refuse to help bake and you will not cling to the apron strings of the State whilst throwing tantrums because others might have what you do not.

I'm confused, is it their fault or 'our' fault? Because if It's our fault we should definitely just execute them all, that will teach them a lesson for listening to the people they grow up around!

[Paracelse]

Ok but I just don't see how it's years of liberal dogma when the capitalists gained so much.

Perhaps while leftists liberals were paying attention to create equal diversity to correct the mistakes of colonialism, capitalists payed attention to increase their income. Liberalism just like capitalism can't work without morals.

[Habitat]

The economic troubles manifesting themselves around the world, aka GFC and its continuing dramas, are simply the consequence of a relapse into the historically discredited dogma of laissez-faire capitalism that re-appeared in the 1990's. It is arguable that the collapse of the equally discredited dogma of state-controlled economies in Eastern Europe gave it the opportunity for re-birth. Just because one end of a scale is no good, doesn't mean the opposite is desirable.

[Space Commander Travis]

Ample further evidence is provided by this thread as to why the old "Lib!" "Con!" abuse-hurling system of politics will get absolutely nowhere in moving humanity to a brighter future. What practical use is the old "Us/Them", "Lib/Con", "Left/Right", "Repub/Dem!" divide, other than as something to throw things at people over ? Surely it's had its day long, long ago. Or does it just mean that, as long as people can hide behind their comfortable little walls of "it's all the fault of the Libs!!!", they don't have to give any thought to the subtleties of issues.

[conspiracybeliever]

The only reason I commented on this thread to begin with is the title of the thread blaming "liberal dogma" and then the first comment blaming THE SINGLE MOTHER. I've never been to Europe but it doesn't seem like its any different over there as far as the blame games go. I was talking to a co-worker yesterday who is from Britain and the first thing he did was blame blacks and the other non-whites and the second thing that came out of his mouth was that it was the single mothers. This is why I think women should have all those extras that black people have now. Women are the ones that are taking care of the children. That's usually how it works out so why not educate women and teaching them they can take care of these children so they don't have to depend on others whether it be social services or men that worry more about keeping their money than they do their kids and getting in sometimes life threatening situations fighting over someone else's money and not forcing marriage on them like that is going to help anything. The majority of the time that just brings more children into the situation and it ends in the same way.

And as far as the riots go they scare me. They aren't going to solve anything and they are just going to make things worse. They remind me of riots here in the states years ago that were in non-white neighborhoods.And I can see this happening here soon. The only difference is if the police could not get it under control our military would have moved in before they let it go on this long. And when it happens here I can bet the body count is going to be much higher.

[Cyberfly]

conspiracybeliever, not all single mothers are bad parents. But when I was working as a police officer, I ran into MANY single mothers who couldn't tell you where any of her brood were at any given time of day (during the day when other kids were in school, she couldn't tell you). Eight kids, by eight different fathers, making a 'living' off the state because of her kids and the food stamps and the rent subsidies and the heating subsidies and <the list goes on>.

She didn't know, she didn't care. And if any of them got arrested, don't ask her to bail them out. Let the juvie courts deal with him/her, she couldn't be bothered with it cuz Oprah's on. This isn't a 'parent'. Not the kind that we think of when we hear the word PARENT.

I also ran into parents that if their child set fire to a classroom, they would fight tooth and nail to defend their child, there was nothing wrong with the way THEIR kid behaved, it had to be somebody else's fault because there was nothing wrong with their little angel and don't you DARE threaten to bring charges on their child!

When parents stop being parents and children realize that there are no consequences for their actions...or that mommy or daddy will get them out of whatever they get into? That generation is ruined.

Personal responsibility HAS to be taught to kids. Early.

Unfortunately, when the grand majority of our exposures are to the negatives of an equation, then that is what the mind conjures when we think of examples.

As for me, the grand majority of my friends are married people with children. Of those people, a large majority are church goers. Not all, but a lot. Many have been married for many years and are actually quite happy. Their kids are well adjusted, well behaved, do well in school and aren't problem children. I do know a few single parents with good kids as well, but again, the grand majority of single parents that I've had to deal with were on the job and the situation was not a good one.

At what point do we stop blaming society and start pointing the finger at personal decisions and bad choices?

[meryt-tetisheri]

conspiracybeliever, not all single mothers are bad parents. But when I was working as a police officer, I ran into MANY single mothers who couldn't tell you where any of her brood were at any given time of day (during the day when other kids were in school, she couldn't tell you). Eight kids, by eight different fathers, making a 'living' off the state because of her kids and the food stamps and the rent subsidies and the heating subsidies and <the list goes on>.

She didn't know, she didn't care. And if any of them got arrested, don't ask her to bail them out. Let the juvie courts deal with him/her, she couldn't be bothered with it cuz Oprah's on. This isn't a 'parent'. Not the kind that we think of when we hear the word PARENT.

I also ran into parents that if their child set fire to a classroom, they would fight tooth and nail to defend their child, there was nothing wrong with the way THEIR kid behaved, it had to be somebody else's fault because there was nothing wrong with their little angel and don't you DARE threaten to bring charges on their child!

When parents stop being parents and children realize that there are no consequences for their actions...or that mommy or daddy will get them out of whatever they get into? That generation is ruined.

Personal responsibility HAS to be taught to kids. Early.

Unfortunately, when the grand majority of our exposures are to the negatives of an equation, then that is what the mind conjures when we think of examples.

As for me, the grand majority of my friends are married people with children. Of those people, a large majority are church goers. Not all, but a lot. Many have been married for many years and are actually quite happy. Their kids are well adjusted, well behaved, do well in school and aren't problem children. I do know a few single parents with good kids as well, but again, the grand majority of single parents that I've had to deal with were on the job and the situation was not a good one.

At what point do we stop blaming society and start pointing the finger at personal decisions and bad choices?

The highlighted case is also that of eight absent fathers, 'absentee' parents who didn't even bother to be around their children, participate in their upbringing, or accept any level of responsibility for their offspring, including providing a roof over their heads. They abandoned their children to the single mother and society at large. It is unfair to single out the mother for blame while not mentioning the 'other'no show parent. I am not trying to absolve careless mothers, but fathers, in such a case, are even worse.

The problem IMO is the education of both parents, and the message given by society at large, which detaches freedom of choice and action from responsibility for the consequences, and the moral duty to shoulder such responsibility.

[conspiracybeliever]

conspiracybeliever, not all single mothers are bad parents. But when I was working as a police officer, I ran into MANY single mothers who couldn't tell you where any of her brood were at any given time of day (during the day when other kids were in school, she couldn't tell you). Eight kids, by eight different fathers, making a 'living' off the state because of her kids and the food stamps and the rent subsidies and the heating subsidies and <the list goes on>.

She didn't know, she didn't care. And if any of them got arrested, don't ask her to bail them out. Let the juvie courts deal with him/her, she couldn't be bothered with it cuz Oprah's on. This isn't a 'parent'. Not the kind that we think of when we hear the word PARENT.

I also ran into parents that if their child set fire to a classroom, they would fight tooth and nail to defend their child, there was nothing wrong with the way THEIR kid behaved, it had to be somebody else's fault because there was nothing wrong with their little angel and don't you DARE threaten to bring charges on their child!

When parents stop being parents and children realize that there are no consequences for their actions...or that mommy or daddy will get them out of whatever they get into? That generation is ruined.

Personal responsibility HAS to be taught to kids. Early.

Unfortunately, when the grand majority of our exposures are to the negatives of an equation, then that is what the mind conjures when we think of examples.

As for me, the grand majority of my friends are married people with children. Of those people, a large majority are church goers. Not all, but a lot. Many have been married for many years and are actually quite happy. Their kids are well adjusted, well behaved, do well in school and aren't problem children. I do know a few single parents with good kids as well, but again, the grand majority of single parents that I've had to deal with were on the job and the situation was not a good one.

At what point do we stop blaming society and start pointing the finger at personal decisions and bad choices?

It's not all about personal decisions and bad choices. Now you sound like Dubya.

[conspiracybeliever]

The highlighted case is also that of eight absent fathers, 'absentee' parents who didn't even bother to be around their children, participate in their upbringing, or accept any level of responsibility for their offspring, including providing a roof over their heads. They abandoned their children to the single mother and society at large. It is unfair to single out the mother for blame while not mentioning the 'other'no show parent. I am not trying to absolve careless mothers, but fathers, in such a case, are even worse.

The problem IMO is the education of both parents, and the message given by society at large, which detaches freedom of choice and action from responsibility for the consequences, and the moral duty to shoulder such responsibility.

You do know a lot of those fathers I was talking about are educated right? They are. I'm talking about preparing women to take care of the children they have from whatever bad decisions or mistakes they made because in the end the majority of the time women are raising the children.

[meryt-tetisheri]

You do know a lot of those fathers I was talking about are educated right? They are. I'm talking about preparing women to take care of the children they have from whatever bad decisions or mistakes they made because in the end the majority of the time women are raising the children.

I didn't mean "schooled" by 'educated', some might have PHD degrees, but if they fail to shoulder their responsibilities towards the children they fathered, then there is something lacking in their social and moral 'education'. Even though it is the mother who ends up raising the children alone, it is unfair for her and them. I agree with you that the mothers should be prepared to take care of their children, but the fathers are just as responsible for the children and should also be held accountable, for the sak eof the child also. That does not necessarily mean that the parents should be forced into marriage either, but if they fathered a child, then they must be there for it. My husband once told our son, when he was a teenager, that if he ever fathered a child and failed to take care of it (thank goodness that never happened, nor was the threat ever necessary), then he should expect that his 'inheritance' will pass straight to the child, bypassing him. I know this sounds extreme, but it helped illustrate to our son that fatherhood is just as much a responsibility as motherhood. On this thread some people laid responsibility for rioting youth on single mothers, but what example do these looters have in totally absent fathers, who weren't even mentioned?

[conspiracybeliever]

I didn't mean "schooled" by 'educated', some might have PHD degrees, but if they fail to shoulder their responsibilities towards the children they fathered, then there is something lacking in their social and moral 'education'. Even though it is the mother who ends up raising the children alone, it is unfair for her and them. I agree with you that the mothers should be prepared to take care of their children, but the fathers are just as responsible for the children and should also be held accountable, for the sak eof the child also. That does not necessarily mean that the parents should be forced into marriage either, but if they fathered a child, then they must be there for it. My husband once told our son, when he was a teenager, that if he ever fathered a child and failed to take care of it (thank goodness that never happened, nor was the threat ever necessary), then he should expect that his 'inheritance' will pass straight to the child, bypassing him. I know this sounds extreme, but it helped illustrate to our son that fatherhood is just as much a responsibility as motherhood. On this thread some people laid responsibility for rioting youth on single mothers, but what example do these looters have in totally absent fathers, who weren't even mentioned?

I agree with what you are saying but many don't have inheritance or anything else to threaten with and it just isn't happening. I also don't think the majority of single mothers are stereotypes you hear about in this thread and all over the place but our tv has told our ignorant society they have someone to blame so they've done it. Single mother is about as equal to criminal as you can be. And our society is too stupid to question either. It's not a perfect world and certainly not perfect people. Give women the means to take care of their own children.

[Tiggs]

In my opinion - riots have occurred in the UK at points in time which are uncorrellated to whichever party held power (apart from the Poll tax riots, which were politically motivated).

The general decline of morality has happened on both the major political party's watch, as evidenced by the continuing decline in marriage since the early 70's.

It's my belief that we're still weathering the storm of the sexual revolution caused by the birth control pill, which has made sex outside marriage not only thinkable, but commonplace. Divorce rates, thankfully, have started to decline, but I suspect that may be due to only "committed" couples getting married.

In general, I believe that marriage currently needs to be heavily incentivised via taxation, in order to encourage the kind of stable environment and role models that children need. I also believe that Social safety nets are absolutely essential, but have been subject to long term abuse and are in dire need of reform.

The entitlement culture that currently exists where people believe that the Government should pay for them on an ongoing basis has to be completely shattered.

In return, however, the Government needs to have a coherent framework in place to deal with the issues that will be created by doing such - else the recent riots will look like a picnic.

To be honest - I'm not sure that there are any quick win scenarios - or at least none that don't involve relocation/removal of the population.

[hetrodoxly]

The vast majority of Afro Caribbean people who arrived in the UK 50-60 years ago were god fearing (i know this doesn't make you a good person)honest and hard working, left wing lib lab teachers and hand wringing social workers made short work of decimating the lives of their children and their children's children, they've never been shown any discipline never been taught to respect people in authority, their olders or anyone! they've been allowed to skip education with no consequence, physical punishment was stopped to the mantra of "violence causes violence" well with each passing decade the violence shown by children increases considerably so at least we can put that fallacy to bed.

Edited August 12, 2011 by hetrodoxly

[conspiracybeliever]

Please go on. Tell us what you should do with all these stupid worthless women and children you created. Aren't these great societies we live in? How cool is that when we can blame all our problems on women and children!? Boy this is the life!!

[Indiogene]

I have my TV on FOX News right now: Sean Hannity interviews all 8 Republican presidential hopefuls in the Iowa State Fair, and the same channel aired the Republican presidential debate yesterday from Des Moines. The TV ratings for them are phenomenal and surpassed its' "liberal" rivals CNN and MSNBC in the news channel genre.

When I viewed it, they all talk about Iowa as a state of lower-middle class/hardworking and self-reliant country rural white folk not having welfare handouts, but from my family friends who live near Iowa City in the town of Hills and Riverside (the future birthplace of Captain James Kirk of 'Star Trek' fame), the region of southeast Iowa can boost a whopping 20 to 45% federal poverty rate and there's a 25 to 30% unemployment rates, varied from county with the least urban/most rural ones have the worse.

Rural poverty and economically-weakening small towns don't get much media publicity than urban ghettos, but to think how bad has the majority of the USA and EU outside metro areas, you find the soul of America and building block of western Europe is tampering off to history, a "ghost town" is really a farm field...way out in the countryside.

Edited August 13, 2011 by DeMikeDe

[asc.rudeboy]

It's not all about personal decisions and bad choices. Now you sound like Dubya.

it is 100% about personal decisions and bad choices. it was that couples choice to have unprotected sex and have unwanted children,it was their choice to party drink and fight instead of learning a trade. its 100% their choice to riot and burn down their neighborhood...who made them do it? no one could make them better them selves,educate themselves,support their family..if we as society can not make them behave better because they choose to reject being a productive member of society,how are we making them riot..they choose it plain and simple.personal responsibility.

Please go on. Tell us what you should do with all these stupid worthless women and children you created. Aren't these great societies we live in? How cool is that when we can blame all our problems on women and children!? Boy this is the life!!

please your feminism is showing and its lacking,you blame a women getting pregnant on men,really? so your implying women are to stupid to protect them selves and men should be there to protect them by being then only responsible person at the party? those pregnant girls laid down and excepted the risks just as much as the man who was there....i think some of your femanazi counter parts might be insulted by that point of view..

i believe in welfare and helping someone who needs it,but i also believe nothing in life is free.ill help you but you have to go to school maintain a certain gpa,work what ever job deemed necessary or you loose benefits.i believe it should be a helping hand not a life time gift,you refuse to show progress and help yourself then your on your own.if you can grow up and do absolutely nothing and still maintain the life style youve had since you were a child.why would you better yourself? why go the extra step to do the right thing when doing nothing get you everything you need...

and before you fun loving liberals attack capitalism,remember without capitalist and hard working tax payers,there would be no money to support your liberal agendas...these kids are doing nothing less then biting the hand that feeds them,and still some people will sit back and try to make every excuse in the book for them...amazing

[meryt-tetisheri]

please your feminism is showing and its lacking,you blame a women getting

pregnant on men,really? so your implying women are to stupid to protect them

selves and men should be there to protect them by being then only responsible

person at the party? those pregnant girls laid down and excepted the risks just

as much as the man who was there....i think some of your femanazi counter parts

might be insulted by that point of view..

While I agree with you that those who rioted and looted freely chose to do that and should be held accountable, I find the position of stereotyping single mothers into a generalized, out of focus, caricature figure of an irresponsible parent who is the root cause of social ills, totally unrealistic, unfair, and inaccurate. 'Single mother' also includes women who are divorced, widowed, or just separated from their partners for any number of reasons. The majority of these women chose not to abandon their children but instead to play the roles of both parents at the same time, while maybe holding one or more jobs to support them. This is not an issue of 'liberal' versus 'conservative' ideology .

You must be also aware that no contraceptive is 100% efficient at all times, and that "protected sex" is the responsibility of BOTH partners, and yes they should BOTH take responsibility for the child they conceived, otherwise, when you are speaking about 'responsibility' yet criticize a single mother while absolving an absentee no show father, you are simply contradicting your own argument. If you want to offer for debate an opinion based on the role played by 'irresponsible'single mothers, you should also include a breakdown of the family background of those arrested for looting vandalism etc., what percentage came from one parent/single mother families? What is the role played by peer pressure, educational system, juvenile penal system, role of the media, and a multitude of cultural and social factors, otherwise all we have are value judgments and a propensity to jump into unfounded conclusions with both feet.

[Space Commander Travis]

The vast majority of Afro Caribbean people who arrived in the UK 50-60 years ago were god fearing (i know this doesn't make you a good person)honest and hard working, left wing lib lab teachers and hand wringing social workers made short work of decimating the lives of their children and their children's children, they've never been shown any discipline never been taught to respect people in authority, their olders or anyone! they've been allowed to skip education with no consequence, physical punishment was stopped to the mantra of "violence causes violence" well with each passing decade the violence shown by children increases considerably so at least we can put that fallacy to bed.

How can you decimate the lives of children? reduce them by 10 years?