Guest Posted August 24, 2011 #101 Share Posted August 24, 2011 (edited) I have had to move for work, it's what any self respecting adult would do when it's required. My advice to these people with "problems" is stop being a victum, put on your big boy pants, and get on with it. Life isn't fair, theres no point moaning about it What you are actually advocating is the destruction of stable communitees as government policy. Communitees are the basis of successful stable and happy people. As Thatcher said "There is no such thing as Community" and so started the systematic destruction of large parts of the British way of life. Not everyone can be a professional and the jobs which you speak of are largely for the professional classes. Again you confuse the victims with the causes. Large parts of the industrial base of England and the communitees they supported were attacked by the state in the Thatcher era, with the intention of weakening organised labour. It worked and instead of trying to rebuild those communitees with alternatives they were left to wither. The is the cause of the current problems - and not the liberals which you would like to point the finger at. Destruction of communitees as a political tool - nice !! Br Cornelius Edited August 24, 2011 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted August 24, 2011 #102 Share Posted August 24, 2011 (edited) What you are actually advocating is the destruction of stable communitees as government policy. Communitees are the basis of successful stable and happy people. As Thatcher said "There is no such thing as Community" and so started the systematic destruction of large parts of the British way of life. Not everyone can be a professional and the jobs which you speak of are largely for the professional classes. Again you confuse the victims with the causes. Large parts of the industrial base of England and the communitees they supported were attacked by the state in the Thatcher era, with the intention of weakening organised labour. It worked and instead of trying to rebuild those communitees with alternatives they were left to wither. The is the cause of the current problems - and not the liberals which you would like to point the finger at. Br Cornelius I don't want the govt involved at all. And if the communities are so stable, why is there no work and plenty of voilence? I bet there is plenty of seasonal work (which i have experiance doing while at uni) in forestry, produce, fruit and veg picking which require people to move into the area for months at a time. A great quote attributed (falsely?) to Bill Gates is "Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping; they called it opportunity." Edited August 24, 2011 by Professor Buzzkill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 24, 2011 #103 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I don't want the govt involved at all. And if the communities are so stable, why is there no work and plenty of voilence? I bet there is plenty of seasonal work (which i have experiance doing while at uni) in forestry, produce, fruit and veg picking which require people to move into the area for months at a time. A great quote attributed (falsely?) to Bill Gates is "Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping; they called it opportunity." I would love to see the masses of south London moving across the country to pursue those lucrative burger flipping opportunities . You position is insulting to the complexity of issues which have created the atmosphere where riots become inevitable. Simple off the shelf Neo_liberal dogma just doesn't cut it when running something as complex as a country. I suppose you also think the current health care reforms will bring efficiency to one of the most efficient health systems in the world. Slogans are cheap, analysis takes a bit of thought. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted August 24, 2011 #104 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I would love to see the masses of south London moving across the country to pursue those lucrative burger flipping opportunities . You position is insulting to the complexity of issues which have created the atmosphere where riots become inevitable. Simple off the shelf Neo_liberal dogma just doesn't cut it when running something as complex as a country. I suppose you also think the current health care reforms will bring efficiency to one of the most efficient health systems in the world. Slogans are cheap, analysis takes a bit of thought. Br Cornelius The point i am trying to make (and im sure you understand it) is that any employment is an oppertunity. If you try hard and show promise, the world is your oyster. If you complain that you're only getting paid $12 an hour to flip burgers while the banker down the road is getting paid $60 dollars an hour for advice, you will get no where. The problem is attitude. Specifically the attitude that you are owed money for being alive, and that all your problems are other peoples fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runekazter Posted August 24, 2011 #105 Share Posted August 24, 2011 So in other words we should push marriage? Force women to stay home and drop babies and watch soap operas and cook and clean and wait on their man? That's the answer? women already do this. there are countless unmarried women staying at home spitting out babies watching oprah and living off the government without waiting on any men. must be liberating to not need the man and just take the tax payers money. cause all of us love to see our tax dollars supporting someone's eight kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotoutthere Posted August 25, 2011 #106 Share Posted August 25, 2011 The point i am trying to make (and im sure you understand it) is that any employment is an oppertunity. If you try hard and show promise, the world is your oyster. If you complain that you're only getting paid $12 an hour to flip burgers while the banker down the road is getting paid $60 dollars an hour for advice, you will get no where. The problem is attitude. Specifically the attitude that you are owed money for being alive, and that all your problems are other peoples fault Once again, spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2011 #107 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Once again, spot on Not really - social disadvantage is shown to correlate very strongly with your status in society at birth. Sure start was an attempt to break that correlation but it has been largely axed after just a decade - far to short a time to have made a difference. Coupled to the recent changes in Student grants it seems that the class divide will become a Berlin Wall of social division. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotoutthere Posted August 25, 2011 #108 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Aw bless, our Politicians are playing the blame game as to why the Utopia they promised us (using our own money) hasn’t materialised. All those think tanks, pressure groups, SpAds, vested interests, working groups, lobbyists and not an ounce of common sense between them. Meanwhile, back on the housing estates created by Politicians, the feral classes, created and paid by Politicians to be feral will continue to hide the loot, continue to buy and sell drugs to supplement their benefits and when challenged will scream “poverty, inequality, prejudice” An army of Sociologists, the same ones who told us this was the route to Nirvana will now scream that we must have more of the same to overcome the very problem they created. There is no way back from this. The Fabians have won. They have destroyed the family in their vision to build the all powerful State, they have destroyed decency because a minority refused to be decent, they have destroyed morals because only the State can provide morals and they have silenced their critics with violent accusations of “bigotry”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotoutthere Posted August 25, 2011 #109 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Not really - social disadvantage is shown to correlate very strongly with your status in society at birth. Sure start was an attempt to break that correlation but it has been largely axed after just a decade - far to short a time to have made a difference. Coupled to the recent changes in Student grants it seems that the class divide will become a Berlin Wall of social division. Br Cornelius Not really - social disadvantage correlates with staring out the window & making your teachers life a living nightmare all through school rather than choosing to listen & educate yourself. As a general rule of thumb, feckless parents tend to produce feckless children, & you could see the calibre of parent defending their thuggish offsping in the aftermath of the riots whilst their little disadvantaged angels were attending court. Where were the 'parents' of those 11 to 14 year old criminals when the rioting was taking place? They obviously weren't at home helping their kids with their homework, probably had more pressing matters to attend to down the pub. Edited August 25, 2011 by itsnotoutthere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted August 25, 2011 #110 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Not really - social disadvantage is shown to correlate very strongly with your status in society at birth. Sure start was an attempt to break that correlation but it has been largely axed after just a decade - far to short a time to have made a difference. Coupled to the recent changes in Student grants it seems that the class divide will become a Berlin Wall of social division. Br Cornelius I just don't see how giving people more money, or creating false a economy in the low wage market will help the core problem. As i have said before, it will lead to inflation. And we all know that coming from a "lower class" (which is a term i tend to only hear about in England) is not a death sentence. Our prime minister (NZ - John key) grew up in a council house, with only his mother on a benefit as her income, and he ended up making millions in the financial markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf0852 Posted August 25, 2011 #111 Share Posted August 25, 2011 The point i am trying to make (and im sure you understand it) is that any employment is an oppertunity. If you try hard and show promise, the world is your oyster. If you complain that you're only getting paid $12 an hour to flip burgers while the banker down the road is getting paid $60 dollars an hour for advice, you will get no where. The problem is attitude. Specifically the attitude that you are owed money for being alive, and that all your problems are other peoples fault no right thinking human wants money for being alive .they want a fair wage for the work they do they want to be able to provide for there family through hard work.this is impossibal to many in the u.k because our housing/living costs are so high when compared to stupidly low wages .i hear the right wing scream work is the way forward and it would be if people got paid for the work they do.the most benefits paid out by the goverment are paid out to working people to subsidise the profits of big companys.no one complains about that we dont see the right wing saying why are we paying tax to support a low paid workforce only why are we paying the unemployed.they dont complain because paying a worker a wage they can live on and have dignity in would hit there short term goal of making as much personal weath as they can and be damned with the peasents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf0852 Posted August 25, 2011 #112 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Not really - social disadvantage correlates with staring out the window & making your teachers life a living nightmare all through school rather than choosing to listen & educate yourself. As a general rule of thumb, feckless parents tend to produce feckless children, & you could see the calibre of parent defending their thuggish offsping in the aftermath of the riots whilst their little disadvantaged angels were attending court. Where were the 'parents' of those 11 to 14 year old criminals when the rioting was taking place? They obviously weren't at home helping their kids with their homework, probably had more pressing matters to attend to down the pub. well my eldest son is taking this gcse exams 2 years early because he is extremely bright(unlike his dad) .i am however under no illusion that because of the area of the world he is from he will have very little chance of making as much of himself as he could and that is the problem. i hope i am wrong but history has shown that if you come from certain areas in the u.k you are disadvantaged from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F3SS Posted August 26, 2011 #113 Share Posted August 26, 2011 So in other words we should push marriage? Force women to stay home and drop babies and watch soap operas and cook and clean and wait on their man? That's the answer? He clearly said "encourage" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F3SS Posted August 26, 2011 #114 Share Posted August 26, 2011 ~~~Quinns Laws Liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent. Liberals never believe that their policies have failed, only that they have not done enough of it. ~~~Jim Quinn, conservative talk radio host. Pittsburgh, Pa USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2011 #115 Share Posted August 26, 2011 ~~~Quinns Laws Liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent. Liberals never believe that their policies have failed, only that they have not done enough of it. ~~~Jim Quinn, conservative talk radio host. Pittsburgh, Pa USA Nice. A new Biblical rule from a Bible thumping conservative talk show host. We should care because ??? he spent so much time on educating himself about the issues. The simple point is it was not the poor which created poverty and unfortunately it is not the poor who have the power to change the system which allows poverty. Blaming the poor is just ignorant. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2011 #116 Share Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) Duplicate Edited August 26, 2011 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotoutthere Posted August 26, 2011 #117 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Nice. A new Biblical rule from a Bible thumping conservative talk show host. We should care because ??? he spent so much time on educating himself about the issues. The simple point is it was not the poor which created poverty and unfortunately it is not the poor who have the power to change the system which allows poverty. Blaming the poor is just ignorant. Br Cornelius So, in effect what you're saying is all those people we saw rioting & looting a couple of weeks ago were just victims of circumstance & in fact everybody else was to blame. Well that's what i'd expect you to say & sounds like the type of ideology that got us to this point in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conspiracybeliever Posted August 26, 2011 #118 Share Posted August 26, 2011 He clearly said "encourage" I know what he said. I just can't believe how ignorant people like you are. All I hear is "it's the single mother! It's the single mother's fault"! If the single mother is as smart as you people think and stole all your money why is she still at the bottom? Where did all the money go? Oh I forgot. She went out partying with it. Spent it on drinking and drugs. Those single mothers must be really smart. I mean even wasted she took down the world's economy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2011 #119 Share Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) So, in effect what you're saying is all those people we saw rioting & looting a couple of weeks ago were just victims of circumstance & in fact everybody else was to blame. Well that's what i'd expect you to say & sounds like the type of ideology that got us to this point in the first place. I am not excusing anyones behaviour and find what happened on the street of London disgusting. That doesn't stop me from understanding that if you allow systemic social inequality and alienation to develop - riots are as inevitable as daffoldils in the spring. If you don't attempt to understand why things happen - you are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. I prefer to solve problems rather than let them be. Have you ever heard the term "Enlightened Self Interest" that means doing things which don't immediately appear to serve your interests - but in the long-run pay dividends. Allowing people to live in situations where unemployment runs at 20% or more means that inevitably those same people will one day come and burgle your house. Far better to give productive work than leave them in a situation which encourages crime to develop. Solve the cause of a problem and the problem goes away - do nothing and we all end up in gated communittees with armed private security firms to keep the plebs out. We have choices about how society function - it just seems to me that we made all the wrong ones about 30yrs ago. Br Cornelius Edited August 26, 2011 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSS Posted August 26, 2011 #120 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I am not excusing anyones behaviour and find what happened on the street of London disgusting. That doesn't stop me from understanding that if you allow systemic social inequality and alienation to develop - riots are as inevitable as daffoldils in the spring. If you don't attempt to understand why things happen - you are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. I prefer to solve problems rather than let them be. Have you ever heard the term "Enlightened Self Interest" that means doing things which don't immediately appear to serve your interests - but in the long-run pay dividends. Allowing people to live in situations where unemployment runs at 20% or more means that inevitably those same people will one day come and burgle your house. Far better to give productive work than leave them in a situation which encourages crime to develop. Solve the cause of a problem and the problem goes away - do nothing and we all end up in gated communittees with armed private security firms to keep the plebs out. We have choices about how society function - it just seems to me that we made all the wrong ones about 30yrs ago. Br Cornelius I can see your thinking on this - but I think you may be looking for a larger problem as a possible reason for what is essentially a smaller problem. What I mean is, when I was growing up on a rough estate back in the early nineties (which tied in with the previous far deeper recession) it wasn't a case that the lack of jobs lead to a lifestyle, it was a lifestyle that meant that getting a job was a low priority....you actively see yourself as outside of society, and you seek that and like minded people....our thinking was why would we want to get up early every day, work a manual job 5/6 days a week, for the same that could be stolen in a hour one night? We all wanted the easy life, quick money, maintained reputations as being people who operated outside the law, outside society....this mindset has been around since the dawn on time...every council estate in the country has a hardcore element that operate like this, when you have situations like the recent riots they are the ones that are first on the scene - the growing crowds are little more then the mob mentality you get with any situation, young people who get caught up in the excitement and adrenalin rush - most probably operate the right side of law normally, but got caught up in unusual times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2011 #121 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I can see your thinking on this - but I think you may be looking for a larger problem as a possible reason for what is essentially a smaller problem. What I mean is, when I was growing up on a rough estate back in the early nineties (which tied in with the previous far deeper recession) it wasn't a case that the lack of jobs lead to a lifestyle, it was a lifestyle that meant that getting a job was a low priority....you actively see yourself as outside of society, and you seek that and like minded people....our thinking was why would we want to get up early every day, work a manual job 5/6 days a week, for the same that could be stolen in a hour one night? We all wanted the easy life, quick money, maintained reputations as being people who operated outside the law, outside society....this mindset has been around since the dawn on time...every council estate in the country has a hardcore element that operate like this, when you have situations like the recent riots they are the ones that are first on the scene - the growing crowds are little more then the mob mentality you get with any situation, young people who get caught up in the excitement and adrenalin rush - most probably operate the right side of law normally, but got caught up in unusual times... I agree with you to some degree but would also ask the "Chicken and Egg" question as well. Crime is statistically related to poverty and that is a fact. Reduce poverty and crime goes down. Complex issues no doubt - but as far as I am concerned you can expect to see a hell of a lot more riots as the current round of cuts bite deeper and we settle into another decade and generation which opportunity left behind. As I said before, Britain has a structural problem which is related directly to the fact that we never moved beyond a class system when opportunities were been doled out. I came at the end of the Labour period of enlightened self interest where University Education was free to anyone with talent, where the Middle Class favouring 11plus was done away with and which produced some of the most creative and productive people of the last century. The UK is going backwards and all those gains are now lost. If you were to be born in a poor estate in the 1980's and you applied yourself you could go to university and advance yourself into upper management or technical fields. That opportunity is not available to the young of today who will not take on debts of 10's of thousands for the very real prospect that they will be just another person with a degree and no prospects of a job. Those people will be the ones who become the serious criminals who have the brains to get into real trouble rather than petty crime. Fundamentally we are seeing the Capitalist system moving on and grinding our country into the ground. Capitalism always eats its children in its perpetual pursuit of lower costs and higher margins. We as a people have lost the ability to control our economy and we are left to compete with the likes a India and China in a race which we can never win. I really do think the future is very very bleak for those youths rioting in London - and don't imagine that they don't know it. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F3SS Posted August 26, 2011 #122 Share Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) Nice. A new Biblical rule from a Bible thumping conservative talk show host. We should care because ??? he spent so much time on educating himself about the issues. The simple point is it was not the poor which created poverty and unfortunately it is not the poor who have the power to change the system which allows poverty. Blaming the poor is just ignorant. Br Cornelius Actually his partner Rose is more of a 'bible thumper.' He focuses more on the problems with liberal and socialist ideas. Noone blames the poor, just the ones who work the system knowing darn well that they are fully capable of helping them selves. The real problem is the government. The government dishing out enetitlements and checks on behalf of hard workers like myself is the problem. If the gov. wouldn't hand out so much to people who don't really need it then those people would be forced to go earn their own living or live on the streets. They do have a choice. I'm talking about the 18-65 with general good health people who'd rather sit on the butts and collect from US. I know there are folks out there who really need help and those are the ones we(conservatives) don't mind helping. You don't need to care, but blaming capitalism is asinine. Capitalist create jobs. Government and entitlement doesn't. So, in effect what you're saying is all those people we saw rioting & looting a couple of weeks ago were just victims of circumstance & in fact everybody else was to blame. Well that's what i'd expect you to say & sounds like the type of ideology that got us to this point in the first place. Agree. Nobody's doing anything for me. Whaaa! I know what he said. I just can't believe how ignorant people like you are. All I hear is "it's the single mother! It's the single mother's fault"! If the single mother is as smart as you people think and stole all your money why is she still at the bottom? Where did all the money go? Oh I forgot. She went out partying with it. Spent it on drinking and drugs. Those single mothers must be really smart. I mean even wasted she took down the world's economy! I'm sure you know what he said. Folks like you love to twist words. You changed "encourage marriage" to "forced marriage." NOT the same. She's probably at the bottom because she's popping out kids just for enetitlement checks. There is something called personal responsibility. I've known single mothers who hold jobs and make things work without help from the state. And no they're not rich. On the other hand, I have known far too many who are spending all there money on booze, cigarettes and drugs. All the while being proud of that providing zilch for their kids and not giving a dam. It is a reality you should face. It's disgusting. Once again, the government is on top of the blame ladder. Fundamentally we are seeing the Capitalist system moving on and grinding our country into the ground. Capitalism always eats its children in its perpetual pursuit of lower costs and higher margins. We as a people have lost the ability to control our economy and we are left to compete with the likes a India and China in a race which we can never win. I really do think the future is very very bleak for those youths rioting in London - and don't imagine that they don't know it. Br Cornelius Their future is what they want to make of it. They need to stop whining, stop asking for more for doing less, go find jobs. If they all did just that, their future would be brighter. And for those of them who do work and complain about where they are and how much they make...Well were they forced at constant gunpoint to take and stay at that job? If jobs are scarce then move. And don't ask how the poor are supposed to afford a move. They can find a way if they want to. It can be done. Just look up the millions of poor who immigrated to the USA way back when. Many of them became great successes thanks to our capitalist system. Edited August 26, 2011 by Is it for real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conspiracybeliever Posted August 26, 2011 #123 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I'm sure you know what he said. Folks like you love to twist words. You changed "encourage marriage" to "forced marriage." NOT the same. She's probably at the bottom because she's popping out kids just for enetitlement checks. There is something called personal responsibility. I've known single mothers who hold jobs and make things work without help from the state. And no they're not rich. On the other hand, I have known far too many who are spending all there money on booze, cigarettes and drugs. All the while being proud of that providing zilch for their kids and not giving a dam. It is a reality you should face. It's disgusting. Once again, the government is on top of the blame ladder. Alright so why do we need to "encourage" marriage? I was a single mother for many years and I've known many single mothers and very few were on welfare. I can't say the same about the married couples I know. Almost all of them were dropping kids left and right and were almost all on welfare. That is the reality you should face. And another reality you should face is that you caused your own problems. What kind of people, specifically "men" blame their problems on women and children? What a bunch of worthless ****ing cowards! It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "women and children first". When we go down it won't be like the Titanic that's for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F3SS Posted August 26, 2011 #124 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Alright so why do we need to "encourage" marriage? I was a single mother for many years and I've known many single mothers and very few were on welfare. I can't say the same about the married couples I know. Almost all of them were dropping kids left and right and were almost all on welfare. That is the reality you should face. And another reality you should face is that you caused your own problems. What kind of people, specifically "men" blame their problems on women and children? What a bunch of worthless ****ing cowards! It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "women and children first". When we go down it won't be like the Titanic that's for sure! No kidding I have caused my own problems in life. That's the whole point here. Personal responsibility is the answer to all this nonsense. Noone needs to encourage marriage, but it can't hurt to. People who are raised in a complete and caring family are more likely to do better in life vs people who are raised in a welfare house. I know it goes either way like you stated. However, I think I see what you are doing here. You are taking all the crappy cards you have been delt in life and taking your problems out on us. I think you were in a bad marriage, had a scummy husband, had to do things on your own, didn't like it, became an anti-marriage man-hating liberal feminist who thinks the world owes you something. How many of those did I get right? You certainly are angry, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 27, 2011 #125 Share Posted August 27, 2011 (edited) No kidding I have caused my own problems in life. That's the whole point here. Personal responsibility is the answer to all this nonsense. Noone needs to encourage marriage, but it can't hurt to. People who are raised in a complete and caring family are more likely to do better in life vs people who are raised in a welfare house. I know it goes either way like you stated. However, I think I see what you are doing here. You are taking all the crappy cards you have been delt in life and taking your problems out on us. I think you were in a bad marriage, had a scummy husband, had to do things on your own, didn't like it, became an anti-marriage man-hating liberal feminist who thinks the world owes you something. How many of those did I get right? You certainly are angry, that's for sure. So we are in control of all our circumstances and if we all just pulled up our socks and got on our bikes we would be living in Utopia. Simple solution's don't cut it in a world of complexity. Thats the problem with the Conservative outlook - a few simple rhetorical tools can solve all issues without even understanding them :w00t: And those ****ing Grannies can get a job to Sponging cows Br Cornelius Edited August 27, 2011 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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