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Erikl

BREAKING NEWS: Attackers seize Russian school

299 posts in this topic

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Seraphina

No....I was just trying to point out to you that the fight does not begin and end with the same single terrorist group. In many ways, it would be easier if it was...we're not facing a single entity, where you might be able to cut off its head and do away with it, but many hundreds of thousands of different groups that, even if loosely tied together, operate alone, and will continue to function even if all the others have been wiped out.

I really do wish it was a case of "go kill the terrorists"...would make our lives a damn sight safer if it was.

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Babs
Bab, this attack had absolutely nothing to do with the US, 9/11, or much at all with anything happening in the west....it was an action by a Chechen seperatist group. I would try and take the time to explain to you exactly what their goals were, and why this happened...but quite frankly, I don't think there IS a reason that could possibly explain this.

Not correct - as you probably heard, half of the terrorists that have been killed were Arabs, Saudis as it is now appeared, from the same region that the Saudi terrorists of 9/11 came.

This is far from being solely about Chechnya independence anymore - it's now part of international terrorism.

253763[/snapback]

What?...OMG!

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Babs

And gollum...you say you would have assisted them in their cause before this incident? ohmy.gif

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Babs

The terrorists didn't give the hostages_children_ any food or WATER for 3 days.

Edited by Babs

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Velikovsky

The terrorists making these decisions have got to be complete idiots.

They've now decided to go around and attack the countries that were against invading Iraq because you know they would have been against invading any of the other middle-eastern countries.

Now through association they're setting up their home countries to have enemies world-wide.

Honestly what has Russia done against a single Arab nation since the fall of the USSR.

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gollum
And gollum...you say you would have assisted them in their cause before this incident?

Yes, that is correct. In the past I did concider going to assist them in there cause.

If you look up the history of the Chechen people you will see that all they wanted was independence from a crippled Tyrant of a country(Russia).

Just to give you an example, did'nt Texas try some form of move towards independence from the rest of the USA?

My sympathy was with the plight that the Chechen people where and still are in.

What do you find so shocking about me having empathy for a cause?

Are you so shallow as to think that if it aint the US of A way then it's no way?

My country has been down trodden and slapped back into poverty too many times for me to recognize a nation that is being used and corrupted by the big bully boy tactics that the Russians used towards the Chechen people. The Region has vast amounts of oil and that, and only that, is what the Russians want from that region.

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Velikovsky

Gollums right on this one. The Russians have treated the Chechens really, really badly. They should have a right to have a seperate nation. This attack wasn't the answer though.

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Erikl

I think both gollum and velikovsky, and to some degree sera, has made a foundamental mistake.

These are not freedom fighters.

They are terrorists, and there is a huge difference.

I'm, for one, do not buy into the saying that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" - this is bogus.

The biggest difference between freedom fighters and terrorists is their main targets:

While freedom fighters mainly target military installations and personal, terrorists target mainly civilians.

I'm not saying the Russians are innocent here - I already stated that Stalin killed 75% of the Chechen people, and that the motives of the Russians in staying in Chechnya are anything but pure.

Also the Russians have commited huge human rights violations in Chechnya (and for some reason - the EU and UN always seem to look the other way).

But what the Chechnians are doing, and have done today, is anything but freedom fighting.

This is pure terrorism - in it's worst.

Terrorism - the targeting of civilians as main targets - can never be accepted, no matter what are the reasons.

So gollum - even if this attack didn't take place - I think you will still be wrong in siding with the Chechnians.

No one is a saint in this conflict.

The Russian army killed 75% of the Chechenians, carpet bombed their capital city, and turtured to death many civilians.

The Chechenians are targeting civilians, killing men, women and children in brutality unlike anything we've seen in the last 59 years.

But this attack today had nothing to do with Chechen independence - it was another attack on Western civilization by Al-Qaeda and their collaborators.

The Chechens somewhat lost their hope for a state of their own - but those terrorists groups hate Russia so much, they have become part of the global Jihad which was declared upon us, westerners.

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Babs

I understand, Sera, what you are saying, but I agree with Erikl. Thank you, Erikl, for clearing a lot of things up for me.

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LoPar

I have to agree with Erikl as well. I think that, fundamentally, the UN and all nations have failed in this. I can not agree with aiding or abetting any terrrorist activity even if the basic principle behind the activity is 100% pure.

Having said that.....how should a group of people who are under siege react? How can they achieve their goals if the rest of the world turns a blind eye to what is happening?

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DC09

Russia Hostage Death Toll Said to Top 200

BESLAN, Russia - Commandos stormed a school Friday in southern Russia and battled separatist rebels holding hundreds of hostages, as crying children, some naked and covered in blood, fled through explosions and gunfire. Estimates of the number of dead were as high as 200.

The hostage-takers, who had been demanding independence for Chechnya, fled the assault, took refuge in a nearby house and a basement in the school compound and traded fire with security forces. After about 12 hours, the Russian government said resistance had ended, though four others were still being sought. Twenty militants were killed, including 10 Arabs, officials said, and there were reports of three arrested.

There were reports of at least 100 dead in the school gym. Lines of dead children and adults could be seen lying on stretchers, covered with white sheets. Grieving parents and loved ones knelt beside the dead.

Bodies of children also were laid out under a grove of trees near a hospital awaiting identification. Nearby anxious crowds gathered around lists of injured posted on the walls of the hospital buildings.

The Arab presence among the attackers would support President Vladimir Putin's contention that al-Qaida terrorists were involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been battling Russian forces in a brutal war of independence on and off since the early 1990s.

Security sources accused al-Qaida of financing the takeover of the school and said Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev masterminded the raid, the ITAR-Tass new agency reported. The report also said an alleged al-Qaida operative, Abu Omar as-Saif, coordinated the financing of the attack.

On the campaign trail in Wisconsin, President Bush said the hostage siege was "another grim reminder" of the lengths to which terrorists will go.

Officials at the crisis headquarters said 95 victims have been identified so far. Health Ministry officials said the total death toll was more than 200, the Interfax news agency reported.

Emergency Situations Ministry officials said 704 people were hospitalized, including 259 children. Many were badly burned.

Full Article

Edited by Kellalor

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Kismit

I sat through the first 2 hours of the seige on television last night . I was horrified by the screams the density of gunfire and the rate at which the injured where pulled from the School . Private cars where comandered by the millitary when ambulances where not available , and I witnessed 3 people being plced in a car at a time . The injured where coming out thick and fast and none where being sent to hospital for dehydration that much was obvious .

I heard the scream of a young boy and the voice of a journalist saying

" Oh god , there's nothing they could do for that kid " , I do not believe the journalist knew he was being broadcast at the time .

The first half an hour was absolute bedlam and it appeared to be mostly the children who had tried to escape . The carnage was un-discribable and I knew I was lucky my children layed warm and safe in there beds .

This is the war we should be fighting , these are the terrorist attacks that I want as a human being and as a Mother stopped . This incidiousness is equatable with 911 . This was an attack on our babies .

If I have to swallow the words George Bush's success in the war against terrorism again , I don't know what I will do .

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Stellar

Say what you will about the death toll, but the Russians did the right thing. They couldnt accept the terrorists demands, and IMO they shouldnt have even said they were going to negotiate with the terrorists. Saying that gives other potential terrorists hope. There was nothing else the Russians could have done, so I guess its better to be thankful that this amount of people survived and not less, because it could have been worse.

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Kismit

Absolutely Stellar , no quater should be granted to people who threaten innocents with harm .

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Talon

'EVERYTHING IS CHAOTIC'

Sky News reporter Rachel Amatt witnessed the siege turn from violence into chaos.

Surrounded by the crack of gunfire and sound of explosions, she said:

"Chaos has erupted at the scene, with vigilantes attacking one of the rebels.

Special forces brought out a man on a stretcher and the crowd moved as one and began to attack him.

The soldiers made a token effort to protect him but they have no control.

What is clear, and not a lot is, is that there is still fighting going on.

It's totally chaotic. Snipers on the roof are shooting at somebody but quite how they know who to shoot at I don't know as there are so many people around.

The families are surrounding the school, many of them armed, desperately waiting for their children.

They stare in the windows of cars and ambulances, hoping to catch a glimpse of their sons and daughters.

I can see a woman dressed in black with tears pouring down her face.

All the hostages have been evacuated from the gym but they're still coming out of the school.

They've been coming out in a stream but they've all been unconscious.

Almost everybody who has come out has been in a dreadful state.

They are nearly all badly injured and all have burns to the legs, are unconscious and in a bad way.

We can still hear scattered gunfire."

Heart-warmingly, townspeople have been bringing their cars to take the children to hospital.

The cars dash past with children in the back, their legs bloodied.

It is a dreadful scene. There was a brief lull but the crack of gunfire has returned.

This is far from over and is not going to have a happy ending.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13212125,00.html

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Talon

'GUNMEN OPENED FIRE'

Russian forces opened fire on armed gunmen after they shot at children trying to escape the school siege.

Senior Russian security official Valery Andreyev said hostages being held in the school in Beslan tried to escape after a number of explosions.

"The hostages started running out of the building," he said.

"The rebels opened fire in order to kill children. In order to save their lives we have also opened fire.

"Local people who had arms also started opening fire. When we have entered the building we have tried to save the hostages. A lot of hostages have been saved.

"I would like you to know that we were not planning any storming of the building.

"We are still trying to negotiate but I can't say the exact numbers of how many people have been saved."

Reports suggest as many as 100 people may have been killed in the incident.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13212501,00.html

VICTIMS' MENTAL ORDEAL

The children caught up in the three-day hostage drama in North Ossetia will have probably suffered major psychological damage and some may never get over their ordeal completely.

A French expert has warned a child subjected to a deep shock of this kind is likely to show a long range of symptoms, including anxiety, depression, and problems in his family relationships.

Gilbert Vila, a paediatrician who specialises in child trauma, said: "This case is of the gravest kind.

"The psychological problems will be major."

Vila has authored several studies into the psychological impact on children who suffer a catastrophic shock, including a group of primary-school children taken hostage at their school in the Paris suburb of Neuilly in 1993.

There has been detailed research into Cambodian children who were tortured under the Pol Pot regime and Armenian children who survived an earthquake.

It shows that, for most victims, the big symptoms will gradually ease but for a minority the problems will be lifelong, Vila said.

As for very young children and babies, "we still lack data" on the long-term repercussions.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13212436,00.html

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Stellar
The families are surrounding the school, many of them armed,

Thats not the brightest idea...

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DC09

user posted image

BESLAN, Russia (AP) - The three-day hostage siege at a school in southern Russia ended in chaos and bloodshed Friday, after witnesses said Chechen militants set off bombs and Russian commandos stormed the building. Hostages fled in terror, many of them children who were half-naked and covered in blood. Officials estimated the death toll at more than 200.

Early Saturday, 531 people remained hospitalized, including 283 children - 92 of the youngsters in "very grave" condition, health officials said.

Sixty-two hours after the hostage drama began during a celebration marking the first day of the school year, the Russian government said resistance had ended.

Valery Andreyev, Russia's Federal Security Service chief in the region, said 10 Arabs were among 27 militants who were killed. The ITAR-Tass news agency, citing unidentified security sources, reported the hostage-taking was the work of Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, who had al-Qaida backing.

Full Article

crying.gif

Edited by Kellalor

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Talon

I think the with the first pic you should have just given the link and a warning of the contained graphic image, considering its pictures of dead children.

Edited by Talon S.

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DC09
I think the with the first pic you should have just given the link and a warning of the contained graphic image, considering its pictures of dead children.

254122[/snapback]

Yeah, you're probably right. I removed the more disturbing ones.

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Talon

Aye, nothing wrong with pics themselves, just some people on this site are children themselves, to weak stomached etc and might get distressed by them. So we're best warning them that they're there first. sad.gif Its sad that the the modern world that things such as this exist to be photgraphed in the first place... I mean of all the possible victims.. children...

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Seraphina
I think both gollum and velikovsky, and to some degree sera, has made a foundamental mistake.

These are not freedom fighters.

They are terrorists, and there is a huge difference.

I didn't say these people were freedom fighters...in fact, I'm pretty sure by refering to them as "b*******", "scum", and "lowest form of filth" I made that pretty clear...

My point was that these people, claiming to fight for the Chechans, have probably done their cause greater harm than anything else they could possibly have done, and that their actions will likely have disgusted the very people they claim to have been defending.

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bathory

apparently a large number of them were arabs

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Lottie
y point was that these people, claiming to fight for the Chechans, have probably done their cause greater harm than anything else they could possibly have done, and that their actions will likely have disgusted the very people they claim to have been defending.

I absoloutely agree! In fact fighting for the Chechans was probably just an excuse. These people are terrorists, scum, lower than low, Dispicable evil creatures.

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gollum
I think both gollum and velikovsky, and to some degree sera, has made a foundamental mistake.

These are not freedom fighters.

They are terrorists, and there is a huge difference.

I'm, for one, do not buy into the saying that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" - this is bogus.

The biggest difference between freedom fighters and terrorists is their main targets:

While freedom fighters mainly target military installations and personal, terrorists target mainly civilians.

I'm not saying the Russians are innocent here - I already stated that Stalin killed 75% of the Chechen people, and that the motives of the Russians in staying in Chechnya are anything but pure.

Also the Russians have commited huge human rights violations in Chechnya (and for some reason - the EU and UN always seem to look the other way).

But what the Chechnians are doing, and have done today, is anything but freedom fighting.

This is pure terrorism - in it's worst.

Terrorism - the targeting of civilians as main targets - can never be accepted, no matter what are the reasons.

So gollum - even if this attack didn't take place - I think you will still be wrong in siding with the Chechnians.

No one is a saint in this conflict.

The Russian army killed 75% of the Chechenians, carpet bombed their capital city, and turtured to death many civilians.

The Chechenians are targeting civilians, killing men, women and children in brutality unlike anything we've seen in the last 59 years.

But this attack today had nothing to do with Chechen independence - it was another attack on Western civilization by Al-Qaeda and their collaborators.

The Chechens somewhat lost their hope for a state of their own - but those terrorists groups hate Russia so much, they have become part of the global Jihad which was declared upon us, westerners.

253876[/snapback]

If you take the time to read my posts you will note that I said that I considered assisting them in the past.

By that, I mean during the first Chechen war(1994-96). The similarities(sp) between the Chechen people and my own race are stricking. The Chechens, as you say, were almost wiped of the face of the planet by the Russians. President Yeltsins failure to not only broker some form of agreement with the Chechen people but to then declare war on them has, in the most part, contributed to this situation they are in today. He was more than willing to bend over backwards to appease Tatarstan with there demands when they, at the same time as Chechnya, where declaring independence from the former Soviet Union.

So when I say I concidered assisting them, it was when I seen a nation of people being beaten into none existance by a bully boy Russia for nothing more than OIL.

So Erikl, when I say that I have empathy for a cause, please do'nt assume that I am being naive or ill-informed about this.

Thank you.

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