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Scotland to ban Smoking


Talon
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Ministers to ban smoking in pubs

MURDO MACLEOD

POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT

SMOKING is to be banned in all of Scotland’s 7,500 pubs and bars under government plans to follow the highly successful tobacco-free zones in Ireland and New York, it emerged last night.

Ministers had previously restricted any plans for a smoking ban to restaurants because they feared a massive backlash from drinkers and the tobacco lobby.

But after similar moves in New York and Ireland were met with less resistance than expected and produced evidence some smokers were quitting, Scottish ministers now want a more far-reaching crackdown.

Scotland on Sunday can reveal that deputy health minister Tom McCabe wants to introduce a draft bill by the end of the year that will include the country’s 5,100 pubs and 2,400 hotel bars in a smoking ban.

First Minister Jack McConnell, who has been sceptical about a ban, has now made it known he is "open to persuasion".

Medical professionals and anti-smoking campaigners were last night delighted at the change in thinking at the Scottish Executive, but the tobacco lobby claims the moves are Draconian and are marshalling their forces to oppose them.

Last month, Prime Minister Tony Blair strongly signalled that a ban on smoking in public might be included in the Labour manifesto for the next Westminster election. Any such move would, however, only apply south of the Border.

Scottish ministers are eager to move more quickly on the issue because of the nation’s high rates of cancer and heart disease. Last week, a medical study suggested that passive smoking might be twice as deadly as previously thought, increasing the risk of a heart attack for non-smokers who live with a smoker.

A source close to McCabe, who is steering the Executive’s consultation on a possible smoking ban, said last night: "Although he is waiting for the end of the consultation he is very much of the view that there should be a ban on smoking in pubs and restaurants."

A source on the parliament’s health committee said: "Tom McCabe is up for a ban. He has let it be known to us that he is convinced that it will be a good idea. Jack McConnell has been unconvinced in the past but the weight of evidence of public opinion is making him keener on the idea."

Ministers will also meet with officials from the Irish Republic to discuss how the ban on smoking in pubs, introduced earlier this year, has worked.

Landlords fear that a ban would mean lost takings as smokers opt to have their pint and a puff at home instead of at the bar.

And while taking their drink outside while they smoke might be an option in some parts of Scotland, both Glasgow and Dundee have passed by-laws against drinking alcohol outside, meaning that smokers will have to leave their drinks in the bar while they pop out for a cigarette.

In Ireland, however, there has been hardly any overt opposition to the ban, although the first trading figures from the aftermath of the ban show that takings in bars were down by 3.9% in April, compared with the previous month.

Supporters of a ban have claimed that the dip will be temporary, and that bars and restaurants will see their business bounce back.

Last year, New York introduced a smoking ban, leading to claims that smokers would take their trade to nearby states where smoking was still allowed in bars and eating places.

Officials from New York have since claimed that after an initial slump, the hospitality trade has recovered. Crucially, there is evidence that 100,000 smokers have quit since the ban.

Speaking to the Scottish Parliament’s health committee, Dr Nancy Miller, assistant commissioner of the New York City department of health and mental hygiene’s bureau of tobacco control, said: "When we consider the hospitality industry in particular, as opposed to the economy in general, we see that it is doing even better than everyone else, especially since the law was implemented."

The British Medical Association, which represents doctors and which last week called on ministers to push through a complete ban on smoking in public places, welcomed the signals from the minister.

A spokeswoman for BMA Scotland said: "We believe that there is growing public support for a ban. We would welcome the strong political leadership bringing it in would show."

Stewart Maxwell MSP, who introduced a member’s bill to ban smoking in restaurants, said last night: "I welcome the fact that the Executive appears to be accepting the argument that smoking needs to be banned in pubs and restaurants. It’s very welcome that Tom McCabe fully accepts the ban should be comprehensive."

Brian Monteith, a Tory MSP who is sceptical of the arguments for a ban, said: "The evidence from New York is inconclusive at best. And no one should base any decisions on the evidence from Ireland. Anecdotal evidence shows that Irish smokers are heading to Scotland for smoking holidays."

Monteith appealed for backers of the bill to allow smoking clubs to be set up even if a ban goes ahead.

Simon Clark, the director of the smokers’ rights lobby group Forest, said: "This all seems to have an air of déjà vu about it. The smoking ban in Ireland was forced through by an ambitious minister who wanted to make his name. This ban is about politics, and the need to be seen to be doing something rather than about health. We believe there should be changes and better facilities for non-smokers. But a ban will be a disaster for the hospitality industry. I don’t understand why people are objecting to them turning up for meetings and making their views known."

MSPs who want smoking forbidden suggest the tobacco and hospitality trades are trying to head off a ban by deluging the Scottish Executive’s smoking consultation with replies opposing the curb and by filling public meetings with critics of a clampdown on smoking.

Last week’s consultation meeting in Dundee was dominated by licensees who spoke out against a smoking ban, and pubs in Glasgow are organising a ballot which has so far come out against prohibition.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/polit...fm?id=766292004

About time, decrease our cancer rates, and if Pubs suffer as well, then thats our alcohol problem out the window too cool.gif

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No alcohol in Scotland?!

Now theres a crime against humanity for you all!

Call amnesty!

Call the UN!

cool.gif

Edited by Erikl
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No, they'll be alcohol, just pubs think that a ban on smoking will kill 25% of the pub trade.

I think if it was Alcohol they were banning not only would the tax man be getting less, but I'm pretty sure they'd be riots on the street original.gif

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Dude smoking related disease is killing our population, we need a ban ever you guys don't

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I'm a smoker but i truly believe that eventually the govts of this planet will completely put an end to it in any form.

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Actually I just noticed that article to two months old and not the one I wanted;

Here the one printed today:

McConnell copies Ireland and pushes smokers out into cold

HAMISH MACDONELL

SCOTTISH POLITICAL EDITOR IN DUBLIN

THERE were so many smokers standing outside Grogan’s Bar on South William Street that it was impossible to read the sign.

But in the window of the pub was a small piece of paper telling customers of the landlord’s application for planning permission.

He wanted authorisation for three tables, nine chairs, an awning and gas heaters outside his pub.

It was the same in Tralee, where one pub landlord has taken to enticing drinkers with a huge canvas advertisement bearing the message: "Huge beer garden with gas heaters."

Almost by default, Ireland has become a café society. The pavements everywhere are crammed with tables, chairs and windbreaks as the pubs, cafés and restaurants try to find a way of coping with the ban on smoking and keeping their customers.

Ireland’s ban on smoking inside public places was introduced in March this year. And its most striking aspect, five months on, is how the Irish have taken to it with hardly a murmur of complaint.

A straw poll of smokers huddled outside Dublin’s pubs on Monday night revealed that only about one in four of those who light up actually opposes the ban.

The majority opinion among smokers is that the ban has been a good move.

Such equanimity will encourage those who are lobbying for a similar ban in Scotland.

One smoker, standing outside the International Bar on Wicklow Street, said: "It’s only the old school who are opposed to it. Everybody else realises that we couldn’t go on exposing children and non-smokers to smoke like that. I actually smoke less now, as there are so few places to smoke. I’m down from 50 to 60 a day to about 20."

His colleague, however, disagreed. "It’s absolute rubbish. I do not like being told what I can or cannot do by the government. I come outside to smoke but I now smoke even more because every time I come out I have two, rather than one."

But his was very much a minority opinion. Ireland’s smokers seem to have accepted the ban with more good nature and less antagonism than anybody expected.

There was apparently one night of protest in Grogan’s Bar when a group standing at the bar suddenly lit up herbal cigarettes - which are exempt from the ban. But the response from the rest of the customers, smokers and non-smokers alike, was so vociferous that the foul-smelling herbal cigarettes were soon extinguished.

Indeed, an odd camaraderie has grown up between those forced to huddle outside doorways. Friendships have been forged, business deals done and, it is said, even romances have blossomed beneath the doorways of Ireland’s public houses - doting couples brought together by their nicotine habit.

The real test, however, will come in the winter. Eamonn Baxter, who has smoked for 20 years, asked: "What is going to happen in December?" He went on: "No one knows how bad it will get then."

The tables, chairs and even the gas heaters are fine for late August but no-one quite knows what will be happening by Christmas when the wind and sleet is driving in off the Irish Sea.

When that happens, any number of gas heaters are not going to make the experience of drinking beer outside a pleasant one.

It will only be at that time that the Irish government will know whether it has won.

However, what is equally noticeable, five months on from the ban, is the huge change to Ireland’s social life.

The bars are quieter and emptier. There are fewer customers than there were a few years ago and much of the atmosphere seems to have disappeared with the drinkers.

The process started with Ireland’s conversion to the euro. Prices went up across the board, including drink, and this is when landlords first began to see a dropping off in customer numbers.

The smoking ban has greatly accelerated that trend.

Some drinkers have decided to stay at home, where they can drink and smoke in peace. Others simply drink outside the pubs, only venturing in to buy another round or use the facilities.

The feel of the pubs has changed as well.

The landlord of O’Brien’s in Upper Leeson Street said: "Twenty years ago it wouldn’t have been a good night if you could see the far wall through the fug. Now we can even see the ceiling."

It is not just the lack of smoke though: it is also the smell.

Nobody realised what pubs actually smelled like until they took the smoke away.

Now the predominant smell inside many bars is the whiff from the gents toilets - a less than heady mixture of urine and disinfectant.

The Irish bar as an institution has been marketed successfully all around the world, based loosely on the pubs of Dublin with knick-knacks in the window, grubby wooden floors and spartan furniture.

But it is becoming increasingly clear that the one place in the world where it is impossible to find an authentic Irish bar, in the traditional sense, is Ireland. The attraction of Irish bars has always been their atmosphere and it appears that this has been diminished, if not in all then in many establishments, as the customers have stayed away.

This is the argument that the landlords and the licensed trade associations are using to try to persuade the Scottish Executive not to follow Ireland’s lead.

They warn of job losses and economic problems if Scotland applies a similar ban, pointing to evidence from Dublin-based vintners who claim that trade has dropped by 15 per cent.

The Executive’s consultation on smoking has already generated 22,000 responses, more than any other, and it is understood that the vast majority are in favour of a ban.

The official results will be announced at the end of this month.

It is partly because of the response to the consultation and partly because of the positive news from Dublin that Jack McConnell, the First Minister, has moved towards the radical step of introducing a similar move in Scotland, believing that such a move would improve the country’s appalling health record.

John Daly of the campaign group Sad Ireland urged Mr McConnell not to fall for government "spin".

"The Irish government will portray the ban as popular and successful," he said.

"The truth is that the smoking ban is deeply resented by many smokers and non-smokers, especially regular pub-goers.

"It has had a profoundly adverse effect on the social life of many Irish people, not least the more vulnerable and marginalised in society such as the elderly and handicapped."

The various points of view are difficult for Mr McConnell to assess but, if a small cross-section of Ireland’s smokers is anything to go by, an outright ban is not as insurmountable as perhaps it appeared to be on the other side of the Irish Sea.

If Ireland’s smokers can accept it with such ease, there is every reason to believe that Scotland’s smokers will do likewise.

Whether or not Scotland’s one million smokers have woken up to the reality of the situation - that an all-out ban appears to be just around the corner - is another matter.

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=663&id=1023742004

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Actually the Scotsman seems to take a negative view.... which isn't actually surprising their all right-wing over there.

Need to find an article which is either nuetral, or in favour of it grin2.gif

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No, they'll be alcohol, just pubs think that a ban on smoking will kill 25% of the pub trade.

251779[/snapback]

They thought that would happen in our city, but it really hasn't. For the first little while smokers don't go out as much, but you get used to it. No one really complaines about it anymore. original.gif

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Oh its cause all the smokers are making up nonsense figures

Here's another headline by the pro-smoking Scotsman paper

The Scotsman - Scotland - Only 25% back total smoking ban

er..er.. its actually supported by about 60% I've read two other papers say

Plus the whole 25% is rubbish, its based on Ireland's drop, but in truth thats only about 15% and it doesn't include the increased profits made from snacks.

Its just Cig makers and their zeolots complaining that the governments finally trying to save people's health at the expense of their profits. Despite what smoking does to Scotland:

* About 13,000 people die in Scotland each year from smoking-related illness

* Smoking costs the NHS £200m a year

* In 2002 about 1.15 million people smoked in Scotland

* At least 20 to 25% of all deaths in Scotland result from smoking

* More than four out of five lung cancer deaths are smoking related

* Smokers who die are losing about 14 years of life expectancy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3606071.stm

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clap.gifclap.gifgrin2.gif YAY!! grin2.gifclap.gifclap.gif i think they banned smoking in MA bars too...yup! lol

Boston bans smoking in bars

Smokers will have to step outside

The authorities in Boston, Massachusetts, have banned smoking in restaurants, bars and night-clubs.

The city became the latest to declare indoor workplaces smoke-free zones, following the recent lead of California and New York City.

Smokers and business owners alike have attacked the move as an infringement upon their rights and a potential blow to revenue at a time of economic turndown.

"This is the most terrible time for this to be going into effect," said Bruce Potter, membership director of the Massachusetts Restaurant Association (MRA).

But the authorities say the ban, which still allows smoking in the street, in private homes and in some cigar bars, is in the interests of everyone.

"We're just trying to make sure every employee at every workplace in this city is not exposed to something as dangerous and as carcinogenic as second-hand smoke," John Auerbach, executive director of the Public Health Commission (PHC), told AP news agency.

Elsewhere in Massachusetts, business owners in the town of Framingham are expected to launch a court action against a smoking ban which also came into force there on Monday.

'Undemocratic'

In Boston, the MRA predicted the ban would simply push smokers out of the city to nearby towns where smoking was still permitted.

Mr Potter added that other smokers would gather on footpaths and in car parks, creating a hazard.

You're not allowed to take liquor outside, and what happens outside, we can't control

Bruce Potter

Massachusetts Restaurant Association

"I think it's going to end up being a real problem," he said.

"You're not allowed to take liquor outside, and what happens outside, we can't control."

But the authorities, who have eight inspectors ready to visit venues, believe the ban will take effect smoothly.

Beer mats handed out by the PHC read: "Tomorrow morning, your shirt will still smell April fresh."

However, in Framingham, the local restaurant association is due to go court to challenge the new smoking ban, arguing that the Board of Health had ignored a town ordinance allowing restricted smoking.

A request from the Board in 2002 for that ordinance to be withdrawn was rejected in a vote at the Framingham Town Meeting.

Along with Framingham and Boston, the Massachusetts towns of Saugus and Watertown also adopted bans on Monday.

BBC linky:

Edited by Anti_girl17
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The smoking bans down in victoria australia are coming along nicely, but I believe a ban on all pubs and other similar instituions hould be implemented, smoking id not just a hazard for thsoe doing it, but those around them.

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I got my hopes up when I heard "Scotland to ban smoking" because I thought it meant anywhere and everywhere in scotland! Oh well, its a start. After the pubs its the street, after the street, its the houses with non smokers and children, after that, its a complete ban! grin2.gif

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After the pubs its the street, after the street, its the houses with non smokers and children, after that, its a complete ban! grin2.gif

clap.gif YAY!! clap.gifclap.gif healthier sheep!! clap.giflaugh.gif

Edited by Anti_girl17
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Okay honestly everyone slams smoking because it's bad for your health. But really if you read the papers the only thing that is healthy for you is broccolli. What won't kill you anymore?

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it is going to be a long time before there is a major world wide ban, think of how much money smokers are making for their governments, if they aren't getting it from us smokers, there why will be gotting it another way

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YAY!!  healthier sheep!!

Whats that supposed to mean ant-girl?

Talon already mentioned this, but the pub trade in ireland has hardly been affected.

I mentioned this in another thread but why the hell should I inhale someone else's manky, minging , disease ridden second hand smoke.

I tell you what for all the smokers against the ban i think it fair that i can reserve the right to pir toxic waste down your throat.

I think that sounds fair, dont you??

Okay honestly everyone slams smoking because it's bad for your health. But really if you read the papers the only thing that is healthy for you is broccolli. What won't kill you anymore?

Yeah but you eating broccoli has no effect on me. That is why its being banned.

Smokers say "its our right". WHy the Hell should you be entitled to a right that is harming other people???????

Edited by wunarmdscissor
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Smokers say "its our right". WHy the Hell should you be entitled to a right that is harming other people???????

It really isn't about the 'smokers' rights. It is more about the 'pub owners' rights.

If I own a pub, I should have the right to allow smoking in MY establishment. If smoke bothers you .... don't come to my establishment...go somewhere else. If there is no other pub that is smokeless...open one yourself. My opinion. whistling2.gif

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After a while you'll get used to not being able to smoke in a pub. I went to Montreal a month ago, and you can smoke in all the bars and restaurants there... it felt a little wierd.

Smoking bans are becoming so common. Pretty soon it'll just be an understanding that you can't smoke in a public establishment. Smoking used to be permitted in hospitals, grocery stores, office buildings... slowly but surely it's being banned everywhere.

Here in Canada we get really cold winters, it can go as low as -40 C, and sometimes even lower! Kinda sucked when you had to go smoke outside.

I quit smoking 3 months ago, and I'm really happy I did. Now I'm really happy I can walk into a bar and not have people blowing smoke in my face. And I'm sure most non-smokers are too.

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It really isn't about the 'smokers' rights. It is more about the 'pub owners' rights.

If I own a pub, I should have the right to allow smoking in MY establishment. If smoke bothers you .... don't come to my establishment...go somewhere else. If there is no other pub that is smokeless...open one yourself. My opinion. 

Excelt that pubs often from a centre part in social interaction, if you what a soap opera for example, normally a pub will be a main focal point of it. If voluntary non-smoking pubs exist they must be 1 in a million. People have a right to go to them, or for that matter work in them (what it something like 5000 pub workers last year were diagnosed with cancer?) without being subjected to other peoples poison. You wanna commit delayed suicide, do it in your own homes, stop being so selfish and trying to take with you.

Edited by Talon S.
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Its taken decades, but finally we're winning the war laugh.gif

251804[/snapback]

Are we winning? It would be interesting to see the smoking statistics for the past four decades compared with now. Even if it was just the sales statistics from cigarette companies. Has there been a drop. Even with all the information about what cigarettes do to an individual, new people begin smoking all the time. Will the next generation of smokers - the ones who smoke outside or in specially designated buildings be less in number?

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It really isn't about the 'smokers' rights. It is more about the 'pub owners' rights.

If I own a pub, I should have the right to allow smoking in MY establishment. If smoke bothers you .... don't come to my establishment...go somewhere else. If there is no other pub that is smokeless...open one yourself. My opinion.

Joc most pubs HAVE to employ staff, this mean sthey are bound by laws taht entitle workers to be able to work safely.

If one guy could own and run a pub then fair enough but he cant.

Smoking is not essential talon is right.

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Are we winning? It would be interesting to see the smoking statistics for the past four decades compared with now. Even if it was just the sales statistics from cigarette companies. Has there been a drop. Even with all the information about what cigarettes do to an individual, new people begin smoking all the time. Will the next generation of smokers - the ones who smoke outside or in specially designated buildings be less in number?

AHh well in countries with climates like ireland and scotland if people are forced to smoke outside all winter constantly i can see quite a few quitting.

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