West wants to punish Serbians

[Persia]

The defense team of the former Yugoslav army general Momcilo Perisic say they'll appeal the verdict of the Hague tribunal. It's after the military leader was sentenced to 27 years in prison for war crimes. Perisic was convicted of abetting atrocities during the Balkans War in the 1990s, including the massacre of 8-thousand Muslims in Srebrenica. He is one of several ethnic Serb military officials on trial in The Hague. Balkans political expert Marco Gasic says the West wants Serbians to feel guilty for the whole Yugoslavia war.

[Helen of Annoy]

And who should feel guilty?

The victims?

Who had all the military? Who started ethnic cleansing?

No town in Croatia or in Bosnia and Herzegovina was safe, some of them were destroyed completely, while no town in Serbia was touched by war.

What does that say?

Wake up, Marko, and smell the coffee.

Your country started and lost one classical imperialist war. (Imperialist in the sense of conquering territories that do not belong to you.)

The most bizarre problem in Serbia today is that most of its population doesn’t know and doesn’t want to know what exactly happened in the 1990s.

“Experts” like Gasic are in fact ultra-nationalists and I wouldn’t be so p***ed off if they had intention to die themselves in the next war they will instigate in the end. But no, they plan to sit in Belgrade and jerk off on destruction, pain and death their primitive wailing has caused.

The ICTY in Hague continues to whitewash Serbian crimes with ridiculously mild sentences, while it applies draconic principles on Croats.

Perisic, proven war criminal, one of leading executives of Serbian expansionist project got the same sentence for conducting genocide in Croatia and B&H as it was given to Croatian general who was accused for “overuse of artillery” when liberating his own country.

This won’t end well.

It doesn’t take more brains than various lords who stand behind this abomination of politics have to to realize that.

[dekker87]

And who should feel guilty?

The victims?

Who had all the military? Who started ethnic cleansing?

No town in Croatia or in Bosnia and Herzegovina was safe, some of them were destroyed completely, while no town in Serbia was touched by war.

What does that say?

Wake up, Marko, and smell the coffee.

Your country started and lost one classical imperialist war. (Imperialist in the sense of conquering territories that do not belong to you.)

The most bizarre problem in Serbia today is that most of its population doesn’t know and doesn’t want to know what exactly happened in the 1990s.

“Experts” like Gasic are in fact ultra-nationalists and I wouldn’t be so p***ed off if they had intention to die themselves in the next war they will instigate in the end. But no, they plan to sit in Belgrade and jerk off on destruction, pain and death their primitive wailing has caused.

The ICTY in Hague continues to whitewash Serbian crimes with ridiculously mild sentences, while it applies draconic principles on Croats.

Perisic, proven war criminal, one of leading executives of Serbian expansionist project got the same sentence for conducting genocide in Croatia and B&H as it was given to Croatian general who was accused for “overuse of artillery” when liberating his own country.

This won’t end well.

It doesn’t take more brains than various lords who stand behind this abomination of politics have to to realize that.

i agree with your thrust helen.

but do you not think that bosnians or croats or kosovans should also stand trial for war crimes?

[Helen of Annoy]

i agree with your thrust helen.

but do you not think that bosnians or croats or kosovans should also stand trial for war crimes?

Everyone should stand trial, absolutely.

Everyone must answer for everything they ever did. No exceptions.

There are few Croatian traitors I’d happily hang myself for destroying our reputation (if not for any other reason). They confused “patriotism” with “psychopathy” and it was government’s fault.

My government at that time was incompetent and probably trying to sit at at least two chairs at the same time (deep conspiracy but not that impossible if you look at it from my perspective and know all the little nasty facts).

Funny thing is, Hague showed no interest in true crimes, they went after top of Croatian military with clear intention to twist Croatian fight for regaining independence (and for our own dear lives, by the way) into “criminal enterprise”. According to Hague, I’m criminal that took part in criminal enterprise because I wasn’t standing still when Serbian artillery was pulverizing my house.

There were people of Serbian descent in the same cellars and ditches in which I had to occasionally dive head-first when another drunken chetnik was in the mood to shell civilian targets. This war was not their fault. They were often twice victims of the same war.

But they are traitors in the eyes of average Serbian chauvinist.

The war that followed the ex-Yugoslavia breakdown was not intended for any other reason but conquest of territories and installing totalitarian government led by Milosevic and his clique. Certain groups in the West that supported them did that for two reasons: first, “zombie” imperialism, and second, simple profit.

The point is, Milosevic is dead, but his politic is not. The Hague abomination of justice is just a part of still going project that sees Greater Serbia as its agent and stronghold in Europe, a link between dead empire (yes, UK) and Russia.

It's about European pecking order, not about Serbs or Croats or any "little" man that gets run over by their vanity wars.

[dekker87]

Everyone should stand trial, absolutely.

Everyone must answer for everything they ever did. No exceptions.

There are few Croatian traitors I’d happily hang myself for destroying our reputation (if not for any other reason). They confused “patriotism” with “psychopathy” and it was government’s fault.

My government at that time was incompetent and probably trying to sit at at least two chairs at the same time (deep conspiracy but not that impossible if you look at it from my perspective and know all the little nasty facts).

Funny thing is, Hague showed no interest in true crimes, they went after top of Croatian military with clear intention to twist Croatian fight for regaining independence (and for our own dear lives, by the way) into “criminal enterprise”. According to Hague, I’m criminal that took part in criminal enterprise because I wasn’t standing still when Serbian artillery was pulverizing my house.

There were people of Serbian descent in the same cellars and ditches in which I had to occasionally dive head-first when another drunken chetnik was in the mood to shell civilian targets. This war was not their fault. They were often twice victims of the same war.

But they are traitors in the eyes of average Serbian chauvinist.

The war that followed the ex-Yugoslavia breakdown was not intended for any other reason but conquest of territories and installing totalitarian government led by Milosevic and his clique. Certain groups in the West that supported them did that for two reasons: first, “zombie” imperialism, and second, simple profit.

The point is, Milosevic is dead, but his politic is not. The Hague abomination of justice is just a part of still going project that sees Greater Serbia as its agent and stronghold in Europe, a link between dead empire (yes, UK) and Russia.

It's about European pecking order, not about Serbs or Croats or any "little" man that gets run over by their vanity wars.

bravo! great post...

have you ever read a book called 'my war gone by i miss it so' by anthony loyd? primarily about bosnia but i've never read anything that really got the reality of war across..

My link

[Helen of Annoy]

No, I haven’t. Thanks for link, it will probably be useful for people who want to get a glimpse at the end of one world.

I had more than a glimpse.

I do occasionally broaden my views, but I use local sources, simply because the author who lives here and is directly involved will be inevitably biased, but will also have the complete understanding of seemingly unimportant details. (For example, have you ever heard of Luka Bebic? Of course not. But I dream of poor guy sometimes because he tried to pass an order that – if it was carried out – would make Croatia lose the war. I still have doubts if he was that stupid or that rotten. Sits in Croatian Sabor (Parliament) today. Voters of his party are so very nationalistic, yet they chose to forget that little incident. I won’t forget it until the day I die, and most likely not even then.)

It’s easy to filter the bias out once you can routinely recognize it. Then you harvest the info and put it in its right place in your own puzzle.

What many of my countrymen fail to do, instead they take the holy gospel of truth their political fraction is serving today. *vomits* There's even worse deliberate blindness in the neighbourhood, for large portion of Serbs there was no war, everything was staged and exaggerated, and then Americans bombed them for laughs. Reading radical Serbian authors requires a lot of nerves or strong sense of very morbid humour.

And the war, I don’t know what Loyd’s book articulates, but for my part war is... was... the most annoying combination of excruciating boredom, lack of comfort, lack of info, lack of sleep, lack of everything except irritation, guilt and mortal fear.

It’s not like in the movies or games. There are no glorious moments, no thrill. Even if something epically good was achieved you’re too screwed up to enjoy the moment. And there’s nothing so epically good one common politician couldn’t completely destroy.

The best part, it never really ends. It took me 10 years to accept the sound of thunder as natural occurrence again, without trying to guess the direction, distance and calibre. Looks like it’ll take about 20 to be able to watch documentary without falling apart. It will take life time to actually forgive and an eternity to forget.

To be honest, I envy those stupid chauvinist freaks. They have their unquestionable truths, god that speaks their language, flat earth populated with us and them, unlimited love for themselves and close to zero compassion. Compassion can drive you insane.

[hetrodoxly]

"Compassion can drive you insane"

That's a great quote, i googled it and it appears to be your.

[Helen of Annoy]

That's a great quote, i googled it and it appears to be your.

When you throw so much text on the screen, as I occasionally do, there must be one good sentence in that pile

It’s like throwing darts, sooner or later you’ll hit the centre of the board... or waitress’s ass, depends how disoriented you are.

[dekker87]

And the war, I don’t know what Loyd’s book articulates, but for my part war is... was... the most annoying combination of excruciating boredom, lack of comfort, lack of info, lack of sleep, lack of everything except irritation, guilt and mortal fear.

It’s not like in the movies or games. There are no glorious moments, no thrill. Even if something epically good was achieved you’re too screwed up to enjoy the moment.

that is pretty much what his book articulates..the author basically travelled on his own to bosnia and stayed there for most of the conflict.....ultimately becoming a heroin addict to deal with the things he was experiencing in bosnia...

"Compassion can drive you insane"

are you SURE you haven;t read that book?? lol..that's pretty much the thrust of it....

It took me 10 years to accept the sound of thunder as natural occurrence again, without trying to guess the direction, distance and calibre. Looks like it’ll take about 20 to be able to watch documentary without falling apart. It will take life time to actually forgive and an eternity to forget.

that's tragic.

[Helen of Annoy]

Oh, no, Dekker! It’s not tragic at all!

I’m very much alive and if I die today, I still had a chance to put my soul back in my body.

Tragic is when people are not given such luxury, when they are dead before their time. Tragic is also when people survive but their losses were too great to keep on living.

Tragic is, too, when survivors are complete pricks by nature and instead of becoming better people through hard experience they become even worse.

Various “experts” that are trying to lawyer their way out of responsibility are also tragic.

(There’s one of few cultural differences between Serbs and Croats showing. In Croatia, it’s a matter of honour to accept responsibility for all the crap you flung around. In Serbia, it’s a matter of honour to keep denying you flung any crap around. I blame long Ottoman rule over Serbia for that unslavic understanding of honour. Not that we don’t have our ottomans too.)

And the compassion, apart from driving people insane, it also made actual miracles happen

[odas]

Oh, no, Dekker! It’s not tragic at all!

I’m very much alive and if I die today, I still had a chance to put my soul back in my body.

Tragic is when people are not given such luxury, when they are dead before their time. Tragic is also when people survive but their losses were too great to keep on living.

Tragic is, too, when survivors are complete pricks by nature and instead of becoming better people through hard experience they become even worse.

Various “experts” that are trying to lawyer their way out of responsibility are also tragic.

(There’s one of few cultural differences between Serbs and Croats showing. In Croatia, it’s a matter of honour to accept responsibility for all the crap you flung around. In Serbia, it’s a matter of honour to keep denying you flung any crap around. I blame long Ottoman rule over Serbia for that unslavic understanding of honour. Not that we don’t have our ottomans too.)

And the compassion, apart from driving people insane, it also made actual miracles happen

Not sure that their "honor" system was influenced by the ottomans. If it was not for the serbian "honor understanding" it would have not fallen into ottoman hands in the first place (read Brankovic).

As for the war aftermath, well, I ended up in Germany (where I grew up) and it took me a while to be able to walk without fear on the streets. Fear of granades. It was also a different feeling to just walk, instead of running. Those bosnians who did not experiance the war thought I am crazy. I thought so too for a while. But, as Helen said, I put my soul back in to my body eventualy.

[Helen of Annoy]

Not sure that their "honor" system was influenced by the ottomans. If it was not for the serbian "honor understanding" it would have not fallen into ottoman hands in the first place (read Brankovic).

As for the war aftermath, well, I ended up in Germany (where I grew up) and it took me a while to be able to walk without fear on the streets. Fear of granades. It was also a different feeling to just walk, instead of running. Those bosnians who did not experiance the war thought I am crazy. I thought so too for a while. But, as Helen said, I put my soul back in to my body eventualy.

Welcome back, odas.

I missed you.

There is a difference between Middle Eastern and East European understanding of honour, but I’m not going to nitpick.

(Zlatko Dizdarevic, Bosnian ambassador to Jordan is writing absolutely riveting weekly columns in my favourite newspaper, I’m going to use his observations if we do go nitpicking )

I had some things to do in Zagreb in the early 90s, when it was all too fresh for me. And they have that medieval cannon that goes off at noon... so it was noon, the cannon went off, I was on the main square where you can hear it nicely. I ducked, automatically, then I realized people are staring at me. I was so angry, because they have to have goddamned noon announced with a #@*$! cannon, because they are not ducking without thinking, because the whole mess could have been avoided, because...

Then the planes and helicopters. For a while I still had to duck, it was stronger than my rational mind, but I didn’t want to make a spectacle of myself, so I’d pretend I’m tying my shoelaces. On one occasion, there was a guy tying his shoelaces just next to me

[make me believe]

This nightmare began long ago with the multicultural experiment called 'Yugoslavia'.

Yugoslavia was proof that multi-cult-ism never works.

[Habitat]

This nightmare began long ago with the multicultural experiment called 'Yugoslavia'.

Yugoslavia was proof that multi-cult-ism never works.

Yugoslavia was an 'artificial' country, thrown together because of historical happenstance ? Iraq probably fits the same description, a creation of the British Foreign Office circa WW1. Yet to be shown that it will 'work' in the longer term, too.

[make me believe]

Yugoslavia was an 'artificial' country, thrown together because of historical happenstance ? Iraq probably fits the same description, a creation of the British Foreign Office circa WW1. Yet to be shown that it will 'work' in the longer term, too.

Yea, Iraq is another brilliant example of multi-cult-ism at work. South Africa, Afghanistan, Sudan, and many other examples highlight the failure of multiculturalism even more.

.

Edited September 10, 2011 by make me believe

[Helen of Annoy]

Yugoslavia was an 'artificial' country, thrown together because of historical happenstance ? Iraq probably fits the same description, a creation of the British Foreign Office circa WW1. Yet to be shown that it will 'work' in the longer term, too.

Well, ex-Yugoslavia evidently was British project. Actually there were three Yugoslavias: kingdom after WWI, socialist republic after WWII and illegal union of Serbia and Montenegro after everyone else left. Each broke down and a lot of people were buried under that rubble.

The fourth Yugoslavia, that is still an option in some heads, is obviously not going to work and I take efforts to reinstall that “Greater Serbia lite” very personally. British can give Peckham to Serbia if they feel such strong need to see it greater than it is.

Will the same happen to Iraq it’s of course impossible to tell with certainty. Just like people, each country has its unique history, character and its expiry date.

Yea, Iraq is another brilliant example of multi-cult-ism at work. South Africa, Afghanistan, Sudan, and many other examples highlight the failure of multiculturalism even more.

.

Just one little correction or actually just something to add to the “multi-cult-ism” as it was seen in ex-Yu.

Multicultural state was glued together with real cult. It was cult of Josip Broz Tito, actual person (and rather efficient guy, to be honest) that was transformed into some kind of living communist deity. Like that King-Kong or whatever his name is of North Korea.

[MichaelW]

Where's our resident Serbian?

Of course Serbia wants to blame the west for problems it created.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Yugoslavia was proof that multi-cult-ism never works.

And yet Australia and Britain still function and are amongst the countries with the best standards of living in the world. There's crime and poverty, there's racial and cultural tensions for sure. But on the by and large multiculturalism can work, if people want to make it work.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Where's our resident Serbian?

Of course Serbia wants to blame the west for problems it created.

Whenever there is a topic about the Balkans or even a small mention about Serbia, tends to lie low.

I don't know but I had afeeling he may have supported right-wing or at least in that sort of area.

[smurf0852]

This nightmare began long ago with the multicultural experiment called 'Yugoslavia'.

Yugoslavia was proof that multi-cult-ism never works.

here we go with your racial purity ****.multiculturism works very well in places which aint inhabited by knobheads .to try and link what happend over there with your own warped beliefs is wrong at best.i wish people like you could have spent a year over there like i did then maybe you may think along different lines.but i guess your ilk would end up hiding behind the likes of me and screaming like a girl what the **** hit the fan.your kind always do.

[Helen of Annoy]

here we go with your racial purity ****.multiculturism works very well in places which aint inhabited by knobheads .to try and link what happend over there with your own warped beliefs is wrong at best.i wish people like you could have spent a year over there like i did then maybe you may think along different lines.but i guess your ilk would end up hiding behind the likes of me and screaming like a girl what the **** hit the fan.your kind always do.

Hmm, well, you know... he'd fit in just fine

The truth is mostly a little uglier than official version insists. That's why I think it's essential that MMB has the right to offer his view too, since the actual situation is somewhere in between.

Multicultural ex-Yu crashed and burned because people want bread and games, and it was out of bread, so the games became rougher than usual.

It didnt happen because other countries are populated with beautiful people only, that make multiculti work, it happened because a whole number of factors were in favour of said crash&burn scenario. It could have ended differently (Czech and Slovak peaceful separation) but it doesnt really matter now.

Facts won't go away just because someone decides to ignore or forge them (like the "expert" from the OP is doing, and not only him), and that applies to history in general, not just to this little ****hole in which I live. Happily everafter.

Edit: I accidentally tricked the profanity filter Fixed.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Helen of Annoy

[make me believe]

here we go with your racial purity ****.multiculturism works very well in places which aint inhabited by knobheads .to try and link what happend over there with your own warped beliefs is wrong at best.i wish people like you could have spent a year over there like i did then maybe you may think along different lines.but i guess your ilk would end up hiding behind the likes of me and screaming like a girl what the **** hit the fan.your kind always do.

"Knobheads"

"Your ilk"

"Screaming like a girl"

"****" ?

"****" ?

Not only did you offend most women, you also demonstrated your inability to make a point or use proper English without relying on insults or four letter words...

.

Edited September 15, 2011 by make me believe

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Many non-plural words in the English language are four letters long. I fail to see how saying "using four letter words is a failure to argue properly"

[Helen of Annoy]

Many non-plural words in the English language are four letters long. I fail to see how saying "using four letter words is a failure to argue properly"

You’re right. Defining ex-Yu nations as “knobheads” and claiming that was the only reason why that artificial state failed is one good and civilized argument, despite it’s nine letter word. Still, it’s only two syllables, but that’s one of charming characteristics of English language.

The irony is overwhelming.

Anyway, Kosovo is burning again and Russian ambassador is hissing at participants at some event in Belgrade: “Are there any Serbs among you? Why don’t you go and defend your Kosovo?!”

Large photo of Putin stands on top of Serbian barricade on border crossing.

This is what 21st century looks like in a country that believed in more convenient history instead of in the real one.

These are the results of chauvinist expertises, supported for 70 years because it looked like good idea.

Jesus, this world is run by morons. Not exactly news, but it's relieving to say that from time to time.

[odas]

Youre right. Defining ex-Yu nations as knobheads and claiming that was the only reason why that artificial state failed is one good and civilized argument, despite its nine letter word. Still, its only two syllables, but thats one of charming characteristics of English language.

The irony is overwhelming.

Anyway, Kosovo is burning again and Russian ambassador is hissing at participants at some event in Belgrade: Are there any Serbs among you? Why dont you go and defend your Kosovo?!

Large photo of Putin stands on top of Serbian barricade on border crossing.

This is what 21st century looks like in a country that believed in more convenient history instead of in the real one.

These are the results of chauvinist expertises, supported for 70 years because it looked like good idea.

Jesus, this world is run by morons. Not exactly news, but it's relieving to say that from time to time.

Yugoslavia as a federation of southslavic countries was a good Idea on paper. In reality it was Serbia ueber alles. The sole rule of Serbia over every other country in that federation. Yugoslavia did not collaps because of multi culti but because of Serbia's bully politics. Religion and history was used as the main tool in the eve of the war, during and after. For those who are not quiet familiar with the history of the various republics in ex Yugoslavia here is one example how different the republics were in this regard. Slovenia: I do not even know if they ever had history lessons. They never cared. For them it was always more important to prosper and have a decent life.

Croatia: History in the classroom. Mainly inner history were they learn about Ban Jelacic, the peasant uprirsing and the less popular NDH.

Bosnia and Hercegovina: History lessons of who made the best sljiva (plumshnaps).

Macedonia: Songs, songs, songs.

Montenegro: History of......whatever.

Serbia: Fake History in History, in Life, in gusle songs....everywhere. Serbs saved the world from.....feel free to put whatever you want. If there was ever a danger for the world the serbs were there to save us. I wish they would finaly save us from themselfs.

Now, they are on the march again. In Kosovo, again. And, again, they will end up with a bloody nose. But in their history and songs they will be again the winners. As usual.

Edited September 17, 2011 by odas