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SwordMonkey

[Merged] Neutrinos travel faster than light?

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Robbie333

If an observer (or a measuring device) were equidistant from both the starting point and ending point of the neutrino's path, and the neutrino traveled faster than the speed of light, the neutrino would be observed to reach its ending point before it started.

As Rlyeh said this would violate causality and would be equivalent to the neutrino traveling backward in time. An effect occurring before its cause.

My thoughts exactly. This is what astounded me so much as I first read this phenom. This, in a round about way, is speaking of going backward and forward in time. I am sure this will make smoke come out of a lot of ears.

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questionmark

Maybe I missed the meaning of the relativity concept. Does it actually apply to neutrinos? By definition a neutrino has no mass or size and on popping out of existence neither slows down nor turns solid/massive. Perhaps they mearly exist outside the scope of what the relativity covers?

While researching this I ran across another article on "teleportation" of subatomic particles. These particles are transported between atoms a good distance apart now, several meters. The interesting thing to me is they appear simultaniously to being transported so exist what seems to be at the same time in two places. This would mean instant travel, not speed of light travel and these particles are solid so deffinitely should be covered by relativity.

Mark

There is where the dog is buried, if there is no mass we cannot apply e=mc2 for lack of m. So we end up having e=0c2 Therefore a speed superior to light possible. But does a neutrino have no mass?

Edited by questionmark

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Emin

This is hot!

XD

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bison

Neutrinos seem to have a very small, but not-very-well-defined mass. In the experiment being discussed, the neutrinos arrived at the receiver *after* they left the source, so they seem to be traveling forward in time, not backward. Yes, if this holds up it will play havoc with special relativity, including, it seems, the existence of a preferred frame of reference, which is anathema to that theory.

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Rolci

Almost as interesting as Super Light. See http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/milewski.htm for the works. To quote:

"SuperLight was identified scientifically over 100 years ago when James Clerk Maxwell solved his famous wave equation. This occurred shortly after radio was invented by Nikola Tesla, and theoretical physicists tried to find a mathematical model to explain radio waves. When using positive numbers in Maxwell's Equations this explains radio waves and also all forms of electro–magnetic radiation such as light, radio, TV, microwaves, x–rays, etc. What his equation also explains 100 years ago was SuperLight but because it was the solution that comes from the use of negative numbers, "this second solution" was ignored for over 100 years. Remember when you were taught algebra and were told to ignore imaginary numbers (e.g. The square root of –1) because they have no meaning in this world. Well, times have changed and now we have a very valid second solution to Maxwell's equation and it is SuperLight. "

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StarMountainKid

I wish this Super Light guy would learn where to use and where not to use commas in a sentence.

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ovaz1088

I didn't say the speed of a brain's reaction time. The nature of thought itslef, not the human thinking process. For example, someone telepathic can commnicate with someone else on the other side of the universe the instant the thought is thought of; no lapse in time. If that's too difficult to beleive in, take the fact that quantum entanglement is way faster than light; instantaneous lol. But then again, it's mostly the non-physical or information, not matter, that should be able to go faster than light; unless spacetime is warped I guess.

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encouraged

To TheMcGuffin: your link to the Josh Bell page is interesting to me. It's what I've been trying to say in every thread here about what time is. Nice that Mr. Bell and I agree.

As for the faster than light speed neutrinos I think we'll have to wait until the experimental results can be duplicated by other scientists.

I'm unable to get the link to work. Any suggestions? Maybe it is elsewhere?

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StarMountainKid
I'm unable to get the link to work. Any suggestions? Maybe it is elsewhere?

Try this link. It's a PDF document.

http://bama.ua.edu/~joshua/archive/may04/Josh%20Bell.pdf

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Timothy

Ok so the Earth spins East. The particles are shot from Switzerland to Italy which is West to East. Therefore the position the particles are detected will be further away from the origin by the time they are measured.

So something traveling at the speed of light would be measured as taking longer than it should have which result in a lower value for it's speed. (I'm not sure how much difference it would make and I'm not going to work it out right now).

Now I'm sure they took this into account, but if not this would be even more special.

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Rlyeh

I didn't say the speed of a brain's reaction time. The nature of thought itslef, not the human thinking process. For example, someone telepathic can commnicate with someone else on the other side of the universe the instant the thought is thought of; no lapse in time. If that's too difficult to beleive in, take the fact that quantum entanglement is way faster than light; instantaneous lol. But then again, it's mostly the non-physical or information, not matter, that should be able to go faster than light; unless spacetime is warped I guess.

Telepathy... the wonders of make believe. Edited by Rlyeh

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Chimpanzee

I (with some shame)admit that i have no idea what this really means, as in what this means for a non-brainy person like myself. Will this have any real ramifictions to normal people. Or is this something that will mostly stick to the science community.

It means either -

1. Some type of space warping has occured between the neutron emitter and detector.

2. Neutrons have different physics which we are about to discover.

3. The experiment has allowed errors to creep in.

4. What we understand about graviy and mass may be wrong.

I'm going for a combination of 1+4 - Dark Matter.

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antonT

Could these neutrinos be doing the real speed of light and Einsteins speed of light calculations simply incorporating the time consciousness needs to process the information?

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NatureBoff

Too true. Newton's isotropic gravity assumption was his biggest mistake, and Einstein copied it without question apparently. An Archimedes screw as a graviton is the only solution which makes sense imo, hence anisotropic gravity.

My guess as to the neutrino results is that the LHC needs recalibrating w.r.t earth tides. The rise of Jupiter in the sky signals a slight decrease in the overall tidal effects acting upon the Earth as a whole.

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Rlyeh

Could these neutrinos be doing the real speed of light and Einsteins speed of light calculations simply incorporating the time consciousness needs to process the information?

I don't see why they'd be measuring the time it takes for them to process the information, their devices would have already recorded the information.

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antonT

I don't see why they'd be measuring the time it takes for them to process the information, their devices would have already recorded the information.

,

Ok, but if the neutrinos were travelling faster than the speedd of light, why werent they observed to have arrived in Italy before they left Switzerland?

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redredred

It means either -

1. Some type of space warping has occured between the neutron emitter and detector.

2. Neutrons have different physics which we are about to discover.

3. The experiment has allowed errors to creep in.

4. What we understand about graviy and mass may be wrong.

I'm going for a combination of 1+4 - Dark Matter.

lol...I think we understand gravy pretty well.

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Chimpanzee

,

Ok, but if the neutrinos were travelling faster than the speedd of light, why werent they observed to have arrived in Italy before they left Switzerland?

I think to do that they'd need to be going just over twice the speed of light.

Just over once the speed of light means they get there a little before they should do.

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SwordMonkey

Here is an update to this, CERN has released it's result publicly for other research labs to try and replicate. The document is a PDF file and can be found at the Cornell University Website:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897

After doing a quick look over, that's an awful lot of Scientists... :V

EDIT: Would it be possible to have a mod add the link to the original post so it is easy to find for new users to this topic? I can no longer seem to edit it...

Edited by SwordMonkey

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Chimpanzee

Here is an update to this, CERN has released it's result publicly for other research labs to try and replicate. The document is a PDF file and can be found at the Cornell University Website:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897

After doing a quick look over, that's an awful lot of Scientists... :V

EDIT: Would it be possible to have a mod add the link to the original post so it is easy to find for new users to this topic? I can no longer seem to edit it...

I think they already know its real they are just wording it right because its controversial.

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questionmark

Ok so the Earth spins East. The particles are shot from Switzerland to Italy which is West to East. Therefore the position the particles are detected will be further away from the origin by the time they are measured.

So something traveling at the speed of light would be measured as taking longer than it should have which result in a lower value for it's speed. (I'm not sure how much difference it would make and I'm not going to work it out right now).

Now I'm sure they took this into account, but if not this would be even more special.

The relative position of the measuring station remains the same, as it moves with the earth, so you can ignore that to determine the velocity of the particle.

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encouraged

According to Max Planck, there are ways of going faster than the speed of light. Einstein certainly never claimed that he was always right about everything.

http://bama.ua.edu/~joshua/archive/may04/Josh%20Bell.pdf

Enjoyed the article. Now I realize I got so enthralled by it I didn't note the Planck ways "of going faster than the speed of light." My bad!

I sure am glad someone has found Zeno's work good for something! like getting out of the Ivory Tower and into reality.

Thanks for the citing.

Oh, my Adobe Acrobat and Windows Vista aren't agreeable, so I had to use Chrome.

Edited by encouraged

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Dom3434

That is truly incredible. would throw away a lot about what we know of physics out the window. I have been reading this book that states "correct me if I'm wrong" that through the eyes of a photon no matter how vast the distance it arrives at his destination instantaneously. for when you are traveling the speed of light there is no existence of distance, space and time. this breakthough "if it is a breakthrough" can bring a whole new meaning to time travel.

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kenobe

can theory of everything explains this?

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