American Competitiveness

[Rock Slinger]

Found a well thought out response to an article that Coca Cola CEO says China is more business friendly than the current American regime. Not better in any way... But aggressively business friendly.

http://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/coca-cola-ceo-says-china-now-more-business-friendly-than-the-united-states/

......But even with those caveats, it’s not a good thing that America’s corporate tax system is so unfriendly. And it’s not a good thing that investors, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and others have a perception that it’s better to produce outside of America.

And below is the response I would like to talk about which I find cuts to the chase and gave a plausible explanation to the precariousness of America's future... Koudos to Zorba, whoever you are. And let's hope it is not too late to change our course!

Please think twice before posting useless unwanted partisan BS that is so freaking boring. Oh and please avoid fearmongering as that is just as tiresome. Thank you!

Zorba

Nonwithstanding Mr. Mitchell’s last paragraphs which I tend to agree with,… the larger issue is Competitiveness.

So, Yep! A country with 4 times the population of the US is already on the verge of being more competitive than the United States – and fundamental, structurally pernicious to competitiveness entitlements (like ObamaCare) have not even quite kicked in yet!!

Not to worry though, we have the coercive power of our superb military (a net consumer of business produced wealth), momentum, history, and some yet undefined mystical forces on our side. Thus America is destined to remain the dominant economic force in the world. So, move on folks, nothing to see here, return to HopeNChange.

Bailouts, monetary policies, QE1,2,…i,i 1,…, jobs programs that destroy three jobs to create one for which government can take credit, and other macroeconomic gimmicks may have some limited and ephemeral effect, but they are simply sandbags trying to paper over and delay revealing the true source of America’s decline: An American competitiveness which Americans have long taken for granted, whose margin of advantage has been eroded, and is now finally dangerously close to parity with the rest of the world. Once water from that huge dam reaches the crest, it’s all over — decline will become irreversible. Worst yet, America may have already crossed that point.

So for those who are willing to see the forest for the trees the longer and terminal prosperity prospects of this country hinge on one thing: Loss of Competitiveness on the World Stage.

Has anything been done to increase American competitiveness (ie. offer a better product quality / price ratio) in the past three years? The simple answer is a resounding NO. Just structurally pernicious fundamental changes that flatten the effort reward curve. Thus Americans are firmly setting the stage for their own decline. Tea parties will not save America. They are simply the predictable scream of a minority that has seen the writing on the wall. But, alas, mandatory collectivism and delusional attempts to enslave the individual to serve the common good are intoxicating, inescapable, like the song of the sirens… Can we bring America down to parity with the rest of the world? YES WE CAN!

So, to conclude, Americans can increase Competitiveness two ways: Either by lowering their compensation, or, by adopting freer economic policies that lead to higher value work. Since freer economic policies are nowhere in the horizon, one way or another compensation will come down (in relative terms compared to the rest of the world).

Edited September 29, 2011 by Rock Slinger

[Damrod]

I disagree to an extent. Yes there are some things that are done here that are "business unfriendly". Things like "clean air standards", "river toxin level limits", "land reclamation" and "waste disposal standards". Pick the world you want to live in...a clean, healthy one or a dirty and toxic but profitable one. Third world countries currently don't care about their environment...yet. They have big populations and are generally low on compassion for human life...they really don't care how many children get poisoned or how many are born with defects...they just want the money from cheaply produced products and that is partially due to low or NO EPA standards.

Lowering wages will not make us more competitive if the corporation's pricing structure does not implement it and adjust their product mark ups and target profits accordingly. The whole system...top to bottom...must come down...some things more than others.

Get rid of the advertising monstrosity that drives our day to day media and consumerism...Personally, I know what products I need. There are vulgar amounts of money spent to convince the consumer to buy this product over that product and the cost of all that media and celebrity endorsements inevitably ends up tacked on top of the cost to produce the product...which makes the product substantially more expensive ...then...they can claim those costs for taxes...Removing this alone could take down the percentages of difference in prices for the competitiveness on a world market.

Stop sharing technology to our competitor countries. For instance...Say we develop an advance in assembly line production...make it highly unprofitable to take that technology out of the country where it can be hacked, and pirated by the other companies in said country to turn around and be used against us.

[ninjadude]

Well let's see, companies move production outsourced out of the US, outsource all kinds of other jobs to other countries, those US employes are unemployed, taking less money jobs, so they don't buy as much, towns and businesses in the network close up, which causes the economy to tank. And people wonder why. Seriously?

We need one simple thing. A BIG incentive for companies NOT outsource and move production outside the US. Or conversely incentives to move it back to the US. The "Free market" will not fix this in spite of what Republicans say. Companies have a large incentive to move as much as possible off shore. We need to change that.

[questionmark]

The reason for the economic malaise of the US of A is much more complex than just outsourcing. Oversimplifying things just lead to more complex problems.

The main problem the good old US of A has, and that way before any outsource, is that it consumes more than it produces... for the better part of the last half a century at least.

[ninjadude]

The reason for the economic malaise of the US of A is much more complex than just outsourcing. Oversimplifying things just lead to more complex problems.

The main problem the good old US of A has, and that way before any outsource, is that it consumes more than it produces... for the better part of the last half a century at least.

Because the production has been moved off shore. We let that happen and continue to do so.

[questionmark]

Because the production has been moved off shore. We let that happen and continue to do so.

In the 70s no production was moved offshore, only the oil production in the US was lower. And there the negative payment balance started. In the 80s, due to lack of innovation the general consumer goods were built by Japanese companies and in the 90s US companies started to move offshore.

Moving production offshore was the end game, not the beginning of the problems.

[preacherman76]

How can you compete against slave labor forces? Especialy when your own government supports it through unfair trade agreements. The American people support it as well by buying those products. We as a country litteraly support slavery, to our own destruction.

[conspiracybeliever]

How can you compete against slave labor forces? Especialy when your own government supports it through unfair trade agreements. The American people support it as well by buying those products. We as a country litteraly support slavery, to our own destruction.

We support it in our own country. We have the largest prison system in the world. People work for .25 an hour for these corporations. That's slavery!

[preacherman76]

We support it in our own country. We have the largest prison system in the world. People work for .25 an hour for these corporations. That's slavery!

True, but they really dont produce anything but license plates, and cleaner highways.

[Damrod]

How can you compete against slave labor forces? Especialy when your own government supports it through unfair trade agreements. The American people support it as well by buying those products. We as a country litteraly support slavery, to our own destruction.

This is also true to an extent. We like our "stuff" and especially "cheap stuff". Take 10 people that need any given product...send them into a store and 9 of them will buy the cheaper foreign made one even when an American made product is sitting right beside it for only a couple bucks more...I suppose the thinking is then they can go add some more lard to their backsides at McDonald's with the couple bucks they "saved" by not buying American.

While it is sadly true that not everything we need is always made here...it's a shame that we are nickel and dime-ing our manufacturers to death and when they leave to be more competitive...we cry foul...

Edited October 1, 2011 by Damrod

[conspiracybeliever]

True, but they really dont produce anything but license plates, and cleaner highways.

Not true.

Using cheap prison labor to build profits

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lQucYdOUHkAw.tXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1amZoNTY0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1NNRTAzOV8yMTY-/SIG=12eh76e6g/EXP=1317527982/**http%3a//www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_3440.shtml

Edited October 1, 2011 by conspiracybeliever

[Rock Slinger]

The Chinese and multinational manufacturers backhaul our natural resources back to China on what otherwise would be empty containers.

We let them get away with monetary manipulations so that our own manufacturers can't buy our domestic raw material

at a price that could work to make the product even though it doesn't have to travel around the world first. And we have very efficient manufacturing capabilities already in some cases. I've seen it first hand in the lumber and flooring industry.

We are being bamboozled.

[theGhost_and_theDarkness]

Not true.

Using cheap prison labor to build profits

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lQucYdOUHkAw.tXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1amZoNTY0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1NNRTAzOV8yMTY-/SIG=12eh76e6g/EXP=1317527982/**http%3a//www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_3440.shtml

Well, to be fair, they ARE in prison. They are there to pay back a debt to society, and what better way to pay off a debt than contribute something to the society that you wronged?

Edited October 2, 2011 by theGhost_and_theDarkness

[conspiracybeliever]

Well, to be fair, they ARE in prison. They are there to pay back a debt to society, and what better way to pay off a debt than contribute something to the society that you wronged?

To be fair our court system put them in these prisons therefore I don't know if they have done anything to be in prison. I think many who work in our courts should be in prison. And are these corporations our society? How is working for .25 an hour for big corporations paying back society? It seems to me they are taking jobs from those who "don't owe society anything"? I'm confused.

[theGhost_and_theDarkness]

To be fair our court system put them in these prisons therefore I don't know if they have done anything to be in prison. I think many who work in our courts should be in prison. And are these corporations our society? How is working for .25 an hour for big corporations paying back society? It seems to me they are taking jobs from those who "don't owe society anything"? I'm confused.

There might be a few people in there who were wrongly put in there, but I believe the majority are right where they belong. If you, personally, want to find out whether they belong there, you can go and individually look at every prisoner and their rap sheets and determine it for yourself.

As for the jobs, there has to be something. What do you get when you mix a bunch of thieves, rapists,gang bangers, murderers, etc together who have absolutely nothing to do? You get a big mess. It's hard enough to keep the violence to a minimum when they have something to do, taking those things away would just make the situation worse. Give them some sort of job that they have to do and they are more likely to stay out of trouble. We have a huge prison population, and there are only so many jobs available to them without bringing outside sources in.

It's a rather ingenious set up, if you ask me. They are in prison, they get three meals a day, a place to sleep, education, cable, gyms and rec centers, health care, etc paid for by tax dollars. In return, they become the cheap work force of America. They may make 25 cents an hour, but it costs an average of $47,000 a year to house one prisoner, not including overhead. I think it makes up for itself.

Are corporations greedy? Yes, they are. They will take advantage of any cheap labor they can find. If they don't find it in prisons, they can find it in China. So which would you choose? At least in the prisons it's going to benefit us in some small way.

[conspiracybeliever]

There might be a few people in there who were wrongly put in there, but I believe the majority are right where they belong. If you, personally, want to find out whether they belong there, you can go and individually look at every prisoner and their rap sheets and determine it for yourself.

As for the jobs, there has to be something. What do you get when you mix a bunch of thieves, rapists,gang bangers, murderers, etc together who have absolutely nothing to do? You get a big mess. It's hard enough to keep the violence to a minimum when they have something to do, taking those things away would just make the situation worse. Give them some sort of job that they have to do and they are more likely to stay out of trouble. We have a huge prison population, and there are only so many jobs available to them without bringing outside sources in.

It's a rather ingenious set up, if you ask me. They are in prison, they get three meals a day, a place to sleep, education, cable, gyms and rec centers, health care, etc paid for by tax dollars. In return, they become the cheap work force of America. They may make 25 cents an hour, but it costs an average of $47,000 a year to house one prisoner, not including overhead. I think it makes up for itself.

Are corporations greedy? Yes, they are. They will take advantage of any cheap labor they can find. If they don't find it in prisons, they can find it in China. So which would you choose? At least in the prisons it's going to benefit us in some small way.

The answer to your question which I bolded is OUR SOCIETY!!!! And add stupid to your list.

[+DieChecker]

Has anything been done to increase American competitiveness (ie. offer a better product quality / price ratio) in the past three years? The simple answer is a resounding NO. Just structurally pernicious fundamental changes that flatten the effort reward curve. Thus Americans are firmly setting the stage for their own decline. Tea parties will not save America. They are simply the predictable scream of a minority that has seen the writing on the wall. But, alas, mandatory collectivism and delusional attempts to enslave the individual to serve the common good are intoxicating, inescapable, like the song of the sirens… Can we bring America down to parity with the rest of the world? YES WE CAN!

So, to conclude, Americans can increase Competitiveness two ways: Either by lowering their compensation, or, by adopting freer economic policies that lead to higher value work. Since freer economic policies are nowhere in the horizon, one way or another compensation will come down (in relative terms compared to the rest of the world).

I'd agree "No". Little has been done to make America more competative. It seems to me that most of the nations government efforts go toward making things more "Fair" for everyone. That is to say we need to pull down or slow down those who are the highest achievers and greatest producers. We need to enforce monopoly laws against companies that have no direct competitors and heavily tax any industry that is actually making a profit. Let's run what good individuals, companies and industries we have right out of the country by penalizing them for being successful.

I was listening to the radio at lunch and they were talking about this boy on a middle school (American) football team who could score three or four times every quarter. So the school district decided that he could only play one quarter or till he got 3 touch downs. Then he had to be evicted from the game. The scholl Administrator said it was not fair to the other players and the ruling would be enforced even to the point where if the boys team lost every time.

That is todays America, elevate those who will not do for themselves and handycap those who succeed at elevating themselves.

Obama's "Jobs Bill" will give money to the poor and lower middle class, but how will that create jobs? That might create Demand, and thus maybe more jobs, or at least a couple hours of Overtime for some people every week. But, it is not going to make people go, "Gee, I need to open a bakery, because Obama gave everyone a tax cut.", or, "I think I need to start a car dealership because people will have a hundred dollars more every month and so they'll buy cars."

Supposedly the bill is going to help hire more teachers and more police officers. But how many? We have 10% unemployment here in my city next to Portland and about 90,000 people. So that is 9000 people out of work. How many teachers and cops will be hired out of those? 100, 150? YES, way to crack that unemployment percentage....

And... the people in prison really should be abused. If it was more of a punishment and less of a Spa and criminal university, then we'd probably have less repeat offenders.

[Damrod]

Monopoly laws are a must have....or do people always play fair and to the good of humanity on your planet?

So handing crushing defeats in middle school ball is your idea of a good time...nice.

Today's America...hehehe...it's called civilization...most educated and distinguished minds surpassed those ideals when we stopped whacking women on the head and dragging them bag to our caves.

You are basically talking in favor of continuing to embrace the "animal" aspects of our nature..."greed", "might makes right"..."the end justifies the means"..."rule by an iron fist"...those instincts are what creates pain and misery...they have not and will not ever be redeeming or acceptable human traits....they offer nothing to society or civilization and will hopefully... eventually... be removed via evolution...but I suppose we have to remove the carriers and propagators first.

About the "jobs act"...if you actually knew anything about the 40's and 50's and how the work programs put money into the workers pocket who then went out and bought cars and houses and appliances...you would know how it works...

Edited October 3, 2011 by Damrod

[+DieChecker]

Monopoly laws are a must have....or do people always play fair and to the good of humanity on your planet?

So handing crushing defeats in middle school ball is your idea of a good time...nice.

Today's America...hehehe...it's called civilization...most educated and distinguished minds surpassed those ideals when we stopped whacking women on the head and dragging them bag to our caves.

You are basically talking in favor of continuing to embrace the "animal" aspects of our nature..."greed", "might makes right"..."the end justifies the means"..."rule by an iron fist"...those instincts are what creates pain and misery...they have not and will not ever be redeeming or acceptable human traits....they offer nothing to society or civilization and will hopefully... eventually... be removed via evolution...but I suppose we have to remove the carriers and propagators first.

About the "jobs act"...if you actually knew anything about the 40's and 50's and how the work programs put money into the workers pocket who then went out and bought cars and houses and appliances...you would know how it works...

Ohhhh shutt upppp.... Come on. Who was destroyed for life the other 230 years of US history when their team lost 70 to 7? 40 years ago this kid would have been a Hero and on Johnny Carson, but now, he is just an embarisement to his school.

I do agree Monopoly Laws have a good purpose, but if someone makes a startup, say in Civilian space travel to the moon, and has the only ship, is that Monopoly and does it need to be broken up when the 2nd ship is built?

I'm not promoting the USs animal aspect, I'm just saying that it made the US as a whole, more competitive in the past, against other nations. And that is what this thread is about, right?

I'd buy the Jobs Bill if I believed that it would be done like those in the 40s and 50s. But, what I have seen is a LOT of projects started or planned and few people working on them. I see a lot more sites opened for repairs/expansions/ect and equipment just sitting there. I don't beleive they have hired extra people to build infrastructure. I believe the Good Ol' Boy system is simply backing up the projects so that the existing construction personnel are getting richer, or at least more hours.

I also believe that todays citizens think they are "too good" to go dig ditches, pack asphalt and pour concrete. I see it everytime I visit someone who is unemployed. They say, "I'm doing good. Still getting a check and waiting to get the... Engineering, software, management, technician, writing, marketing, sales, advertising, realestate... whatever... job. If people really were wanting Any Job and if the states were really Hiring Anyone to work in construction projects, then we'd already be seeing tremendous drops in unemployment, which have just not happened.

You can find lots of articles about all over the Nation on how such and such project will cost 30 million, but never is mentioned how many jobs the project will create.

[conspiracybeliever]

And... the people in prison really should be abused. If it was more of a punishment and less of a Spa and criminal university, then we'd probably have less repeat offenders.

First we need to get the real criminals in jail instead of protecting them to build the only real businesses we have left in this country...prisons and social services. Imagine what the numbers would look like without those.