Reincarnation

[Taita]

Where does everyone stand on this possibility and why?

For a very long time I understood it to be deviltry as was taught in my church (Southern Baptist) growing up. Later I noticed Jesus said John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. Older Jewish books mention several instances of reincarnation and as far as I can find, it isn't regarded as a purely Satan inspired act of deception but more like sooth saying. That it is dangerous possibly and therefore forbidden or to be seen as a likely deceit.

As it stood promenantley on the Godly side of Christianity and Judaism, the same with soothsaying and dream interpretation, I can't see it as evil in nature.

Mark

[keven3]

Where does everyone stand on this possibility and why?

For a very long time I understood it to be deviltry as was taught in my church (Southern Baptist) growing up. Later I noticed Jesus said John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. Older Jewish books mention several instances of reincarnation and as far as I can find, it isn't regarded as a purely Satan inspired act of deception but more like sooth saying. That it is dangerous possibly and therefore forbidden or to be seen as a likely deceit.

As it stood promenantley on the Godly side of Christianity and Judaism, the same with soothsaying and dream interpretation, I can't see it as evil in nature.

Mark

Reincarnation may occur in certain contexts such as what you mentioned, but as a whole I reject the notion because if you believe in reincarnation you are essentially saying that Christ had no purpose to suffer and die on the cross for you.

He was humiliated, tortured, and executed soley to allow mankind to be able to spend eternity with God.

The idea of reincarnation is that you will eventually reach your own Godhood through multiple lives on earth. Not only don't you need Christ to have suffered and died for you, but you yourself will eventually uncover your own state of being God.

Take care,

Keven

[Bendy Demon]

Well..you can think of reincarnation as merely a cycle in energy.

If you look at electricity, or example, you have a range of "positive" and a "negative" in which the electrical bolt cycles between. Neither charge is good or bad..it is just the nature of electricity.

If souls do exist then it is really no different, the soul in its energy form can be thought of as being in the "positive" charge and the body as the "negative" charge. As a side note, this whole "positive" versus "negative" is not meant to denote good or bad..it is just a cyclical thing.

Anyway, the soul simply oscillates between the two states only each soul has a different range, frequency and strength in which it oscillates.

Now whether reincarnation is a valid, scientifically proven fact is another thing altogether.

[Taita]

Reincarnation may occur in certain contexts such as what you mentioned, but as a whole I reject the notion because if you believe in reincarnation you are essentially saying that Christ had no purpose to suffer and die on the cross for you.

He was humiliated, tortured, and executed soley to allow mankind to be able to spend eternity with God.

The idea of reincarnation is that you will eventually reach your own Godhood through multiple lives on earth. Not only don't you need Christ to have suffered and died for you, but you yourself will eventually uncover your own state of being God.

Take care,

Keven

I hadn't heard that theory of reincarnation before, at least not exactly like that, and it is an interesting one.

Is this meaning that enlightenment, the end of things like Buddists reincarnation as I understand it, is equal to becoming a god? I never made that connection either.

A very good reply, thank you! I have some studying to do on enlightenment and attaining godlike status now as relates to reincarnation.

Mark

[keven3]

I hadn't heard that theory of reincarnation before, at least not exactly like that, and it is an interesting one.

Is this meaning that enlightenment, the end of things like Buddists reincarnation as I understand it, is equal to becoming a god? I never made that connection either.

A very good reply, thank you! I have some studying to do on enlightenment and attaining godlike status now as relates to reincarnation.

Mark

You are welcome.

In my opinion becoming enlightened is equal to attaining oneness with God; the process is to take away all of one's pseudo self to reveal one's eternal Self. Ones eternal Self is either simply "energy" or it is "God."

Take care,

Keven

Edited October 12, 2011 by keven3

[Gunn]

Where does everyone stand on this possibility and why?

For a very long time I understood it to be deviltry as was taught in my church (Southern Baptist) growing up. Later I noticed Jesus said John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. Older Jewish books mention several instances of reincarnation and as far as I can find, it isn't regarded as a purely Satan inspired act of deception but more like sooth saying. That it is dangerous possibly and therefore forbidden or to be seen as a likely deceit.

As it stood promenantley on the Godly side of Christianity and Judaism, the same with soothsaying and dream interpretation, I can't see it as evil in nature.

Mark

There are two reasons for the "possibility" and the "why", in which each of these go hand in hand with one another.....

The golden rule (+) plus Karma (=) equals Reincarnation.

What you do in this life to another and yourself (good or evil), developes the result of Karma in each life. Hence the philosophical rule, the universal rule, what we today call the "The golden rule" - "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."

The result of Karma is the effect of your actions in each life, until you learn what not to do and what you should do, as it is ingrained on your soul from each lifetime, through your moral compass.

Hence the reason for Reincarnation, because it would take you more than one lifetime, to learn to not to give in to nature or the elements of flesh itself. Once you conquer nature and the flesh itself, you become immortal in a perfect body and death has no hold on you. Hence the accomplishment of Jesus (Yeshua) the Christ.

The reason the early Roman Church fathers edited the bible, concerning Reincarnation (although they obvisouly missed a few texts), was because they did not want to give the Pagan groups a reason to continue on sinning. If they taught you or forced it upon you, that you only had one life to get it right, then you would supposedly straighten up and be virtuous. But the Roman Church fathers either didn't account for, or didn't understand the concept of Karma, or they just wanted to control the masses through fear, during that period in history. So the Law of Karma became lost to most of humanity.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Purifier

[Taita]

You are welcome.

In my opinion becoming enlightened is equal to attaining oneness with God; the process is to take away all of one's pseudo self to reveal one's eternal Self. Ones eternal Self is either simply "energy" or it is "God."

Take care,

Keven

Accepted. Now, how is enlightenment different from the Christian belief(by many or most) that on death you know all the secrets of the universe, are infinitely happy and exist as perfect beings? Even in Revelation, eternity is attained and if that end time is believed in, there is no conflict, each has fantastic glory and riches, existing as some type of perfect spiritual being.

Did you know that God was said to recycle souls that wished to wanted to try again for various reasons? They were in Gods coffer of souls to be placed in children at birth, so some new, some recycled. The stories involving this coffer did not proclude children born with out souls, although most born this way never breathed. Some however became animals very soon and only resembled people. These had animal souls to allow them to live, rather than human ones(it is a relative recent belief in Christianity that only people have souls) and sometimes various animal physical aspects as well.

I am not discounting what you presented. Just presenting a possibility that there could be other reasons to be reincarnated, even within the already established framework of Christianity/Judaism, than a stepwise developement to being a god.

[rashore]

I believe in reincarnation. It kind of goes with Ryus line of thought. I think our souls gather energy through lessons and experiences, and after the corporal form dies, your soul is full of energy and some of it goes off to be part of the universe, some of it stays together of your soul. Death is a time to see your other incorporeal loved ones again, shake off the excess energy of the lifetime, get ready for the next lessons to be learned. It's a natural cycle. Kind of a super simplified version of how I think about it

Though I don't believe in the teachings of the bible in general, I think the story of Christ on the cross has extremely valuable lessons. The lesson that a soul that does not even know you is willing to suffer for your benefit. It's easy to suffer for someone you know and love, it's difficult to do it for people you have no connection to. It's also a lesson in acceptance, to receive with grace forgiveness even when you know you did nothing to deserve it. And it's a lesson of being willing to suffer yourself for the sake of others even when you don't know them, simply because it's the right thing to do.

[Taita]

There are two reasons for the "possibility" and the "why", in which each of these go hand in hand with one another.....

The golden rule (+) plus Karma (=) equals Reincarnation.

What you do in this life to another and yourself (good or evil), developes the result of Karma in each life. Hence the philosophical rule, the universal rule, what we today call the "The golden rule" - "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."

The result of Karma is the effect of your actions in each life, until you learn what not to do and what you should do, as it is ingrained on your soul from each lifetime, through your moral compass.

Hence the reason for Reincarnation, because it would take you more than one lifetime, to learn to not to give in to nature or the elements of flesh itself. Once you conquer nature and the flesh itself, you become immortal in a perfect body and death has no hold on you. Hence the accomplishment of Jesus (Yeshua) the Christ.

The reason the early Roman Church fathers edited the bible, concerning Reincarnation (although they obvisouly missed a few texts), was because they did not want to give the Pagan groups a reason to continue on sinning. If they taught you or forced it upon you, that you only had one life to get it right, then you would supposedly straighten up and be virtuous. But the Roman Church fathers either didn't account for, or didn't understand the concept of Karma, or they just wanted to control the masses through fear, during that period in history. So the Law of Karma became lost to most of humanity.

Another great post!

Applying various aspects of Eastern philosphy to what decidely did happen, redacting original Biblical texts or entire Books, and how it may have changed Christianity in general in many ways.

I am afraid I have no idea how to test that overall theory though. It is entirely plausable however and is in line with what we know the early church, specifically from 300AD to 700AD, did with their power. I do know, and it should be pointed out, the greatest changes were the result of the creation of the Canon and the several revisions, additions and deletions made from about 140AD. These cause rifts in the Church and those splitting off kept the older version of Canon. *In this way the Book of Enoch was not lost as being redundant to Books Moses is accredited with authoring.

Mark

Edited October 12, 2011 by Taita

[Lumpino]

I believe in reincarnation too. But, I think, it can be according old mysteries. That te future life is created of our thoughts too. And of an our knowledge. It is a principle of a spiritual alchemy, see The secret of the Golden Flower by Richard Willhelm, translantion chinese taosist alchemny book, or ancient mysteries, see Iamblichus, Theurgy.

I'm going this way and it starts with my help greatly in this life too.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Lumpino

[RedSquirrel]

I am a believer in Christ, but at the end the same answer applies to most "afterlife" questions... I think I'll have to die to know. At this time, I have no reason to believe in re-incarnation, but that is just my view. I sure don't want to come back

[konginasong]

I'm a believer in reincarnation. To be honest, I believe that most cultures do, and as Dr Brian Weiss (a non-Asian, non-Buddhist) writes about it in his book - Many Lives, Many Masters - his take on reincarnation sounds VERY Buddhist... however, he uses Western terminology.

E.g. He refers to those with a karmic connection with each other as being "soul mates". He also refers to the Buddhist definition of the "mind" as the "soul".

http://www.4shared.com/document/JnU-qXMr/Many-Lives-Many-Masters-Brian-.html

Do check out these videos as well, they're really good - http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/film-tv-music/reincarnation-videos-you-must-watch.html

Just my 2 cents!!

[Mr. Miyagi]

In regards to reincarnation in Buddhism, it doesn't exist. Reincarnation involves a soul and is more akin to the Hindu tradition. Buddhism concerns itself with rebirth which involves a transfer of conciousness upon death unless enlightenment has occured. There is no belief in a soul in Buddhism. In regards to becoming a god upon enlightenment that's just plain wrong as well in regards to any traditional Buddhist sect be it based upon the Mahayana or Therevada traditions. The existence of heavens, hells, or even the state of being a god are all possible results of rebirth, and have nothing to do with Enlightenment or Nirvana. They are just another form of existence and a part of the same cycle of rebirth and death that ceases upon enlightenment.

Now, I'm not stating that anyone's beliefs concerning reincarnation or rebirth here are wrong. I'm just clarifying some mispreceptions in the thread in regards to Buddhism.

Thanks for reading!!

[Taita]

In regards to reincarnation in Buddhism, it doesn't exist. Reincarnation involves a soul and is more akin to the Hindu tradition. Buddhism concerns itself with rebirth which involves a transfer of conciousness upon death unless enlightenment has occured. There is no belief in a soul in Buddhism. In regards to becoming a god upon enlightenment that's just plain wrong as well in regards to any traditional Buddhist sect be it based upon the Mahayana or Therevada traditions. The existence of heavens, hells, or even the state of being a god are all possible results of rebirth, and have nothing to do with Enlightenment or Nirvana. They are just another form of existence and a part of the same cycle of rebirth and death that ceases upon enlightenment.

Now, I'm not stating that anyone's beliefs concerning reincarnation or rebirth here are wrong. I'm just clarifying some mispreceptions in the thread in regards to Buddhism.

Thanks for reading!!

\

Thank you, I am sure this helped several people. I had to look up Buddhism beliefs and have been having a diffucult time understanding what is being presented. I did however, not think enlightenment was like becoming a god or merging with a god/God. It may sound silly but, it sounded like when you reach enlightenment you actually merge with everything yet stay a seperate entity as well or rather maintain your awareness, if that makes sense.

One thing is certain, I am absolutely certain that I really don't understand Buddhism.

Thanks for the reply and clarifications.

Mark

Edited October 18, 2011 by Taita

[Mr. Miyagi]

\

Thank you, I am sure this helped several people. I had to look up Buddhism beliefs and have been having a diffucult time understanding what is being presented. I did however, not think enlightenment was like becoming a god or merging with a god/God. It may sound silly but, it sounded like when you reach enlightenment you actually merge with everything yet stay a seperate entity as well or rather maintain your awareness, if that makes sense.

One thing is certain, I am absolutely certain that I really don't understand Buddhism.

Thanks for the reply and clarifications.

Mark

If anyone claims they can fully explain Enlightenment or Nirvana, then they're selling something lol. Buddhist beliefs can vary greatly depending upon the region in which it is practiced. The central core of all of them are the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. Everything else involves attempting to realize and apply these concepts in your life from moment to moment and can vary greatly from culture to culture but are no less "Buddhist" than any other group.

Sorry if I derailed your thread a bit.

Take care!

[Taita]

If anyone claims they can fully explain Enlightenment or Nirvana, then they're selling something lol. Buddhist beliefs can vary greatly depending upon the region in which it is practiced. The central core of all of them are the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. Everything else involves attempting to realize and apply these concepts in your life from moment to moment and can vary greatly from culture to culture but are no less "Buddhist" than any other group.

Sorry if I derailed your thread a bit.

Take care!

No. no! Please! Any enlightenment is welcomed and I feel useful. You obviously know way more about Buddhism than I and I knew the subject would come up. I think Hindu thoughts on the subject are probably the religious reasonings most would connect with reincarnation. SoI am sure that will be broached eventually too.

Mark

[Mr. Miyagi]

No. no! Please! Any enlightenment is welcomed and I feel useful. You obviously know way more about Buddhism than I and I knew the subject would come up. I think Hindu thoughts on the subject are probably the religious reasonings most would connect with reincarnation. SoI am sure that will be broached eventually too.

Mark

There's the cliche of the match and the flame describing Nirvana. but it's the match that ceases to exist and not the flame. But seriously, to dwell upon those things means to take away focus from the present. These things do not require faith or belief in them to be achieved. They are a natural result of proper action in an everchanging present moment and not a prize to be sought. Just as Re-birth, if real, is also a natural occurance not dependant upon a deity or belief etc... They're actually irrelevent depending on how you look at it. The Noble Eightfold path is what is the most important, and in my opinion an understanding of Anatta which will vary from person to person, it can't really be explained and requires constant right effort to maintain.

Re-birth, or a belief or nonbelief in it isn't all that important in my opinion.

[Beckys_Mom]

Where does everyone stand on this possibility and why?

For a very long time I understood it to be deviltry as was taught in my church (Southern Baptist) growing up. Later I noticed Jesus said John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. Older Jewish books mention several instances of reincarnation and as far as I can find, it isn't regarded as a purely Satan inspired act of deception but more like sooth saying. That it is dangerous possibly and therefore forbidden or to be seen as a likely deceit.

As it stood promenantley on the Godly side of Christianity and Judaism, the same with soothsaying and dream interpretation, I can't see it as evil in nature.

Mark

Well I don't doubt it....I am not 100% sure about it...But I have heard stories of people remembering their past lives...

[markdohle]

Well I don't doubt it....I am not 100% sure about it...But I have heard stories of people remembering their past lives...

We shared a past life, and we fought all the time

[sutemi]

Hi Mark, A great teacher was asked this question and his answer was, ‘Die and find out, I have come to teach you about now about this time you have here now’. So perhaps as mr Miyagi said about the Buddhist angle it doesn’t really matter. But there is a personal perspective I would like to share I have been practicing Raj Yoga for over 30 odd yrs. and during meditation I have become aware of another place, in it there is no need for anything when in there I am complete, words fail to explain because it is not like here there is no duality and I am not aware of this world or my body just an over whelming feeling of PEACE. I seen and felt many wonderful things there, Light of all colours and heard sound that is a feeling! Do these words do it justice? No but still I want to share with you so they will have to do. So for me as I am not this body but something separate there may be a case for reincarnation as I have this body now and so I seems feasible I could have had others and perhaps have more in the future I don’t know. Forget the Satan/sinning stuff that’s just ways to make the faithful do as there told. So anyway I would say find a good meditation and start to try to experience this other place for yourself, it is within everyone it comes as standard equipment. As Jesus said Heaven is within, so go for it, answers your own question. Be careful though there is a spiritual supermarket out there, a general rule is staring at candles, listening to whale song, visualizations, chanting and getting tied up in awkward positions won’t do it and a teacher is also necessary. There is much more to say but I will leave you with a short film of a lecture by a Doctor whose lecture could help you to understand about what you really are!

I find it stunning every time I watch it. I have been in the same experience and can assure you its real, it is the heaven we all have waiting for us. We can experience it in this life through a proper meditation (I wouldn't advise the doctors method). It takes time and effort but what a priceless gift for when you KNOW who you really are, not intellectually but through direct experience Peace will always walk with you and you will be fulfilled.

Empty your mind of all thoughts. Let your heart be at peace.

Watch the turmoil of beings, but contemplate their return.

Each separate being in the universe returns to the common source.

Returning to the source is serenity.

If you don't realize the source, you stumble in confusion and sorrow.

When you realize where you come from, you naturally become tolerant,

disinterested, amused, kindhearted as a grandmother,

dignified as a king. Immersed in the wonder of the Tao,

you can deal with whatever life brings you, and when death comes, you are ready.

From the Tao te Ching translated by S.Mitchell

[Taita]

Maybe it is slightly off target but I think the connection you made was valid. I didn't mean to bring into the discussion 'should you worry on reincarnation'. I was more interested in people views on it.

You realizations move at a tangent which is interesting to me. Not discounting or scrutinizing reincarnation but, pointing out that the vehicle really isn't important(body). Mr Myagi said much the same thing, that once the final level was achieved, the bodies you passed thru were of no significance. At least that is what I am taking from it so far.

Mark

[Beckys_Mom]

We shared a past life, and we fought all the time

You wish

[gnostic-deity]

i believe in reincarnation. i think ive been here many times before, as you probably have. sometimes i feel little "slips" of memories, or aha! moments, or oh yeah, i remember that... i guess it could be likened to deja vu. i dont think it invalidates christ either, tho i am disinclined to believe in him. sometimes i look at myself, like my hands, and get freaked out that theyre flesh. i mean, im pretty sure im more spirit. like i remember not having a body. anyhooo..yes reincarnation, absolutely.

[Hideout]

Where does everyone stand on this possibility and why?

I think population expansion blows reincarnation out of the water. If everyone lived past lives and there is a limited number of souls, we shouldn't have an increasing population.

[Taita]

I think population expansion blows reincarnation out of the water. If everyone lived past lives and there is a limited number of souls, we shouldn't have an increasing population.

I dont follow. Are you suggesting at creation all souls were created as well and the universe is stagnant as to that aspect? So by this theory there is a que of souls still waiting to be born and when you die these souls go into another que and wait for,,, the end?

If reincarnation is introduced to this theory, how is it changed? Less people in the waiting for the end que? Is that a bad thing? But more to the point, how does introducing reincarnation prevent population growth? To me, it would increase population growth, if originally created unborn souls are still being introduced as without reincarnation. To me, the math requires an increased population growth rate.

However, maybe the growth rate dictates the rate souls can be used and original souls get preference over reincarnated souls, like only 5% of births my be taken by recycled souls.

If there were a limited number of souls, reincarnation or not, there would be, what, 2 people on Earth? those were the created ones right?

I think you are saying if there is reincarnation then there can only be a set number of souls, all already having been born and always recycling. Why is this the case? Why can there be unlimited or a set number which has yet to be reached, of souls if you are otherwise religious but, only a limited number or those already born, if reincarnation is accepted as true? It doesn't sound logical. As Jesus referenced reincarnation himself and it is present in other places in the Bible as well, it would seem there can be no growth of any sort by your example.

Please explain as I am interested in what you are driving at.

Mark