Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

New euro 'empire' plot by Brussels


Still Waters

Recommended Posts

Germany is a very poor example for those who would seek to disparage the Euro. It successfully weathered renunifaction, and then went onto to weather a recession that lasted nearly a decade. In all that time it maintained employment levels. it never ran up a significant debt. It maintained and improved its infrastructure and manufacturing base.

How come over the same period the UK managed to run up a huge deficit, experience house price inflation which has placed housing out of the reach of most of the population, is now running unemployment at 8%. Has one of the highest levels of personal indebtedness in the EU.

How come one country can manage itself and keep a stable economy throughout the economic ups and downs, and the other rides a rollercoaster of boom and bust every decade or so. I know the answer - fiscal prudence, sound management, strategic vision, and focus on what is good for the citizenary.

There is nothing about the EURO which makes financial crisis inevitable if you do not ignore your duty to manage your economy in a prudent and strategic manor. We can all learn a massive amount from the German example - and almost nothing of use from the UK.

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 202
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Blackwhite

    32

  • stevewinn

    32

  • questionmark

    30

  • itsnotoutthere

    15

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Germany is a very poor example for those who would seek to disparage the Euro. It successfully weathered renunifaction, and then went onto to weather a recession that lasted nearly a decade. In all that time it maintained employment levels. it never ran up a significant debt. It maintained and improved its infrastructure and manufacturing base.

How come over the same period the UK managed to run up a huge deficit, experience house price inflation which has placed housing out of the reach of most of the population, is now running unemployment at 8%. Has one of the highest levels of personal indebtedness in the EU.

How come one country can manage itself and keep a stable economy throughout the economic ups and downs, and the other rides a rollercoaster of boom and bust every decade or so. I know the answer - fiscal prudence, sound management, strategic vision, and focus on what is good for the citizenary.

There is nothing about the EURO which makes financial crisis inevitable if you do not ignore your duty to manage your economy in a prudent and strategic manor. We can all learn a massive amount from the German example - and almost nothing of use from the UK.

Br Cornelius

Guess why?

Do you know how much they pay in tax? I don't know what they pay now, but back in 2006-2007 i paid 60% yes 60 procent in taxs.

Edited by BFB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guess why?

Do you know how much they pay in tax? I don't now what they pay now, but back in 2006-2007 i paid 60% yes 60& procent in taxs.

Its a country which works, and it works for the vast majority of its population. The same is not so true of the UK.

Even if the tax rate were lower - I have confidence that they would still manage their affairs in a fiscally sensible way.

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

germanys debt

$2.4 trillion, 83% of GDP, $30,000 per capita

UK debt

$1.6 trillion, 76% of GDP, $26,000 per capita

Link to comment
Share on other sites

oh yes, but lets not forget some are doing better than others, why is that?

Multitude of reasons. Though it also depends on the country*shrugs* Cheap labour etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guess why?

Do you know how much they pay in tax? I don't know what they pay now, but back in 2006-2007 i paid 60% yes 60 procent in taxs.

Income tax rate in 2010No income tax is charged on the basic allowance, which is €8,004 for unmarried persons and €16,008 for jointly assessed married couples. Beyond this threshold, the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 14% to 24% for a taxable income of €13,469 (€26,938 for married couples). In the subsequent interval up to a taxable income of €52,881 (€105,762 for married couples), the marginal tax rate increases linearly from 24% to 42%. The last change of rates occurs at a taxable income of €250,730 (€501,460 for married couples) when the marginal tax rate jumps from 42% to 45%

Source: Wikipedia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a very interesting analysis of the looming Euro crisis from last year;

http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/5062

It seems that the crisis has its roots in;

-personal indebtedness

-the banks mismanagement of this

-almost all EU countries were decreasing their Sovereign debt before the banks crashed

-the USA is in far worse financial state than the EU, and the fixation on Greece is hiding the real looming crisis of an American collapse

-the UK is also in a very bad way compared to many of the other EU countries

-Greece and Italy are the exception in all this in that they are the only countries which have seriously mismanaged their domestic budgets

-with the correct resolves all of these issues can be managed within the Eurozone.

Very interesting article.

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Source: Wikipedia

The German tax system has undergone a comprehensive reform in the year 2001 and later in 2008. This reform is intended, in principle, to ease the actual rate of tax for both individuals and companies.

Germany individual income tax rates ,2011

Tax % Tax Base (EUR)

0 Up to 8,004

14% 8,005-52,881

42% 52,882-250,730

45% 250,731 and over

Note: The rates are before solidarity tax,all individuals,and business tax-for business income.

Members of the church pay 8%-9% church tax.

BTW solidarity tax, 5,5%. So it quickly runs up.

Source: World wide tax

So that means, a guy who gets 52.881 euros (before tax) has more money after tax than a guy which earns 78.250 euros (before tax) That's hard core socialisme.

Edited by BFB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Germany is a very poor example for those who would seek to disparage the Euro. It successfully weathered renunifaction, and then went onto to weather a recession that lasted nearly a decade. In all that time it maintained employment levels. it never ran up a significant debt. It maintained and improved its infrastructure and manufacturing base.

How come over the same period the UK managed to run up a huge deficit, experience house price inflation which has placed housing out of the reach of most of the population, is now running unemployment at 8%. Has one of the highest levels of personal indebtedness in the EU.

How come one country can manage itself and keep a stable economy throughout the economic ups and downs, and the other rides a rollercoaster of boom and bust every decade or so. I know the answer - fiscal prudence, sound management, strategic vision, and focus on what is good for the citizenary.

There is nothing about the EURO which makes financial crisis inevitable if you do not ignore your duty to manage your economy in a prudent and strategic manor. We can all learn a massive amount from the German example - and almost nothing of use from the UK.

Br Cornelius

Germany has an advantage that it doesn't share with all the other eurozone countries - it always has interest rates which suit its economy. In that respect it has more in common with a country OUTSIDE the eurozone rather than a country inside the eurozone.

Interest rates in the eurozone are always set to benefit Germany.

Edited by Blackwhite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats true.

But its fairly up to the Council to decide. If the UK and Denmark wanted to join the EURO, they would have no problems.

Although no country - other than Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain, who are all now wishing they hadn't - would be stupid enough to join the euro.

The chances of Britain joining the euro are nil.

Edited by Blackwhite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Germany has an advantage that it doesn't share with all the other eurozone countries - it always has interest rates which suit its economy. In that respect it has more in common with a country OUTSIDE the eurozone rather than a country inside the eurozone.

Interest rates in the eurozone are always set to benefit Germany.

As I said the UK would have been a counterweight to this aiding in the stabalization of the Eurozone.

However having control over your own interest rate has not protected the UK from running its economy into the buffers.

The point is - interest rates are not the sole leaver of power in managing an economy and the problems of the Eurozone are predominantly ones of internal mismanagement at treasury level.

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although no country - other than Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain, who are all now wishing they hadn't - would be stupid enough to join the euro.

The chances of Britain joining the euro are nil.

All of the countries you mention do not want the Euro to fail and are not wishing they hadn't joined.

Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Greece would all be in exactly the same situation they are currently in regardless of whether they were in or out of the Euro. This is because it was predominantly private bank debt which has left them in the situation they are in, and if they had have wanted to manage that situation - they could have whether in or out of the Euro. They derelicted their duty to manage their private banking sectors which left them high and dry. if you actually go to those countries you would not find the majority of the people blaming the EURO for their woes, no they are blaming their own politicans and regulators for failing them. They also understand that it was their governments following an Anglosaxon NeoLiberal agenda which brought them there.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why do people keep on saying that Spain is in deep s***? Of cause the have some major problems, but at least they are moving in the right direction. The same can't be said for Portugal and Italy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why do people keep on saying that Spain is in deep s***? Of cause the have some major problems, but at least they are moving in the right direction. The same can't be said for Portugal and Italy.

I am not sure about Italy, but surely Ireland made a clean break.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a great letter which appeared in the Financial Times highlighting some inconvenient truths for the Germans:

Germany’s ‘competitiveness’ derives from wage repression

Published: February 17 2011 02:53 | Last updated: February 17 2011 02:53

From Mr Charles Dumas.

Sir, While disagreeing with Philip Stephens (“Britain would have fared better in the euro”, Comment, February 15), I have to put right the tired europhile misconceptions repeated by Chris Haskins (Letters, February 16).

He refers to the UK’s “chronic inability to compete with ... Germany” under the common illusion that the German economy is strong. But Germany’s strength is far from evident at the level of productivity growth, where it has been far behind the US and Britain.

In the latest quarter for which we have data (2010 Q3), UK gross domestic product per worker-hour was up 18.1 per cent from 1998 Q4, versus 14.7 per cent for Germany. On average, over the past couple of decades, Britain has outpaced Germany by 0.4 per cent a year on this fundamental measure.

Germany’s “competitiveness” derives mostly from wage repression relative to southern European countries, while the external value of the euro has been held down by their uncompetitive costs – to Germany’s international advantage (as often pointed out in your columns by Martin Wolf).

Wage repression has helped keep German consumer spending sluggish, and its GDP growth well behind Britain’s over anything but carefully chosen short-period comparisons. German employment has also risen less than British.

It is, of course, weak German growth that has contributed to the imbalances within the euro. Italy, with the most excessive labour costs of all eurozone countries and a “Greek” public debt level all the way through the euro’s 12-year life, has been out of the line of fire in the euro debt crisis for the simple reason that its real GDP growth over the entire last economic cycle (since 2001) is precisely nil!

Lord Haskins was right to say that economic and monetary union membership would have held down British interest rates – as well as its exchange rate which moderated the housing excesses through its consistent overvaluation in the years to 2007 – and thus made our crisis more like Ireland’s. Did nobody point this out to Mr Stephens?

Charles Dumas,

Chairman,

Lombard Street Research,

London EC4, UK

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4f7656de-3a25-11e0-a441-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ceMn4fcZ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a great letter which appeared in the Financial Times highlighting some inconvenient truths for the Germans:

Germany's 'competitiveness' derives from wage repression

Published: February 17 2011 02:53 | Last updated: February 17 2011 02:53

From Mr Charles Dumas.

Sir, While disagreeing with Philip Stephens ("Britain would have fared better in the euro", Comment, February 15), I have to put right the tired europhile misconceptions repeated by Chris Haskins (Letters, February 16).

He refers to the UK's "chronic inability to compete with ... Germany" under the common illusion that the German economy is strong. But Germany's strength is far from evident at the level of productivity growth, where it has been far behind the US and Britain.

In the latest quarter for which we have data (2010 Q3), UK gross domestic product per worker-hour was up 18.1 per cent from 1998 Q4, versus 14.7 per cent for Germany. On average, over the past couple of decades, Britain has outpaced Germany by 0.4 per cent a year on this fundamental measure.

Germany's "competitiveness" derives mostly from wage repression relative to southern European countries, while the external value of the euro has been held down by their uncompetitive costs – to Germany's international advantage (as often pointed out in your columns by Martin Wolf).

Wage repression has helped keep German consumer spending sluggish, and its GDP growth well behind Britain's over anything but carefully chosen short-period comparisons. German employment has also risen less than British.

It is, of course, weak German growth that has contributed to the imbalances within the euro. Italy, with the most excessive labour costs of all eurozone countries and a "Greek" public debt level all the way through the euro's 12-year life, has been out of the line of fire in the euro debt crisis for the simple reason that its real GDP growth over the entire last economic cycle (since 2001) is precisely nil!

Lord Haskins was right to say that economic and monetary union membership would have held down British interest rates – as well as its exchange rate which moderated the housing excesses through its consistent overvaluation in the years to 2007 – and thus made our crisis more like Ireland's. Did nobody point this out to Mr Stephens?

Charles Dumas,

Chairman,

Lombard Street Research,

London EC4, UK

http://www.ft.com/cm...l#axzz1ceMn4fcZ

Nice one,if you ignore the fact that there were 16 million people with lesser than desired qualifications that had to be integrated after the reunification it could be a scandal too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Germany laboured under the sever burden of reunification which depressed its growth over a whole decade. It didn't ruin the economy and it didn't leave a sizable proportion of the population on the dole or other benefits.

Focusing on GDP to the exclusion of all else, its hardly the whole picture.

In short it masks the huge issues which Germany successful navigated over the last two decades. What similar crisis did the UK face ??

Br Cornelius

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Focusing on GDP to the exclusion of all else, its hardly the whole picture.

The writer of the letter didn't just focus on GDP.

He mentioned the growth of German productivity - which lags behind the UK.

He also mentioned the German employment rate - which has been growing slower than in Britain.

He also blames sluggish German economic growth not on reunification (which many people use as an excuse) but on wage repression.

Edited by Blackwhite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A damnable contempt for democracy: The derision over the Greeks' desire for a referendum betrays the EU's loathing of ordinary people

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2056870/Greece-referendum-crisis-A-damnable-contempt-democracy.html#ixzz1cfCsDSck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A damnable contempt for democracy: The derision over the Greeks' desire for a referendum betrays the EU's loathing of ordinary people

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1cfCsDSck

Nuther 'Curry statement' by the Mail? We are impressed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the Prime Minster got cold feet when he was told in no uncertain terms that if he had his little referendum he was on his own economically and could sort out his own little mess. A bit of reality is a very sobering thing.

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The writer of the letter didn't just focus on GDP.

He mentioned the growth of German productivity - which lags behind the UK.

He also mentioned the German employment rate - which has been growing slower than in Britain.

He also blames sluggish German economic growth not on reunification (which many people use as an excuse) but on wage repression.

Wage control is one of those levers which allows a country to manage its economy. Its not a bad thing and it certainly hasn't done Germany any harm.

Having no wage control results in the sort of thing where company bosses give themselves 49% pay raises in the depth of a recession :tu: Maybe that's what he was referring to.

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to the BBC World service today the Greek prime minister was "required" to attend a meeting with the German chancellor Merkel. emerging from the meeting a changed man. - now the referendum is not needed. and people on here applaud the fact greece is in the firm clutches of the EU. they applaud the fact greece is now so dependent on the EU it has no choice but to be ruled by foreign forces. the lesson is there for all to see. The EU even pays British farmers not to produce food - so making us dependent on the EU. and this is happening all over the union - this is the key. make all members so dependent so that breaking away is not an option. :geek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to the BBC World service today the Greek prime minister was "required" to attend a meeting with the German chancellor Merkel. emerging from the meeting a changed man. - now the referendum is not needed. and people on here applaud the fact greece is in the firm clutches of the EU. they applaud the fact greece is now so dependent on the EU it has no choice but to be ruled by foreign forces. the lesson is there for all to see. The EU even pays British farmers not to produce food - so making us dependent on the EU. and this is happening all over the union - this is the key. make all members so dependent so that breaking away is not an option. :geek:

Not what he said in parliament today, he said that there would be no referendum if the opposition would join him in a national unity government to get through these times. If the opposition does not join in (they already said they will) there will be a referendum because he wants Greece to stay in the Euro. (So do evidently 6-7 out of 10 Greeks according to about half a dozen polls out today).

What got them all shocked (including Papaandreou) is that the Euro countries told them that they were not a charity and that they had no reason to bail Greece out if Greece leaves the Euro.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.