Blackwhite Posted November 2, 2011 #126 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) Well, let's hope so hey! Yeah. Who cares about democracy and the will of the people? You are a typical Europhile - you show such contempt for democracy. Have you ever thought about getting a job as an EU Commissioner? Edited November 2, 2011 by Blackwhite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None of the above Posted November 2, 2011 #127 Share Posted November 2, 2011 And the British would be using the disastrous euro currency if people like Br Cornelius had their way. Thankfully Gordon Brown didn't listen to the likes of Br Cornelius and wisely made Britain keep the pound. And I also don't see what problem it would have been if Britain was still using pounds, shillings and pennies. As I mentioned above, we could have had a far worse currency. Of course you "don't see what the problem is". That's 'your problem'. This isn't the 19th century. You can cling to the past if you want. Give me the British Empire any day over the Franco-German Empire. It's just sillyness. The fact is that of course the larger countries will be at the heart of the union and have more influence, but if you think the UK couldn't be at the heart of Europe then you really are deluded. Our problem with EU membership has always been the 'one foot in' approach. We don't export as much to the EU as you Eurobots fool people into believing. The Rotterdam Effect exaggerates the amount of goods which Britain exports to the EU, as I've already pointed out. Again, it's just incorrect. The figures are regularly quoted on all news sources, by all main parties etc. Uk business is more than happy to have the favourable trading conditions of being within the union. You can try and massage the figures but all the credible sources disagree with you. I find it mystifying that people like you think that there is a credible alternative to the EU? The EU WILL continue in some form with or without the UK. Without the advantages of EU membership this little declining country of ours would really see some hard times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None of the above Posted November 2, 2011 #128 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Yeah. Who cares about democracy and the will of the people? You are a typical Europhile - you show such contempt for democracy. Have you ever thought about getting a job as an EU Commissioner? LOL, EU membership IS the will of the people! Not to mention the will of business in the UK, and the official policy of all the main parties and successive elected governments of this country. No, it's YOU who has contempt. Contempt for what is genuinely best for this country. Keep voting UKIP or BNP! As for being an EU commissioner? I'd rather be president of the Federal states of Europe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackFromTheDead Posted November 2, 2011 #129 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Brussels will probably just force the Greek people to keep re-taking the referendum until they come up with the "correct" answer, just like it did with the Irish over the EU Constitution. CANNOT happen... Brussels (which includes your own Commissioners by the way) does not have the ability to insist on retaking a referendum - only your own Govt can insist on this. Look up the Legal Structure of the EU before making uninformed statements... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackFromTheDead Posted November 2, 2011 #130 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Lets be clear - the UK has not met the convergence criteria to join the Euro - so it cannot join...QED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2011 #131 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Far better to live in a country which wisely chose to stay outside the euro than in a country which, due to its anti-Britishness, dropped the pound and adopted the disastrous euro, is now suffering as a result and is now nothing but an EU/IMF poodle. At the moment, the future of England looks far rosier than the future of Ireland. More **** analysis of the root causes of the problems. It was a runaway housing bubble and the financial speculation that it spawned which caused our troubles. The domestic government had a duty to manage the situation and it derelicted its duty in favour of riding the pigs back all the way to hell. What was Englands excuse for its run away housing bubble and speculative financial bubble since it was not the EURO. Try using your brain for once. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2011 #132 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Lets be clear - the UK has not met the convergence criteria to join the Euro - so it cannot join...QED It has not managed its economy in any meaningful way for about 2 decades now. No wonder its in a mess and cutting services left right and centre. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2011 #133 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The referendum is actually a very clever strategy - it will be extremely difficult for EU HQ to ignore the democratic wishes of a nation as expressed in this vote. The real question will be - what is the way forward? Effectively it will be a slap in the face to the Germany - France axis of power within the EU, and a rejection of economic determination by external forces. Interesting times - Greece could leave the eurozone, but the debt would remain, it could turn to its historic status as the world's leading Merchant Marine force, and work outside of the EU completely.. it could insist on repatriating funds from the suspected tax evasion ploy of Swiss bank accounts holding un-taxed money. Nations cannot fail, except in terms of monetarism,because they are a geographical area, and not a fantastical construct. The real problem is FIAT money, with credit being accrued at an impossible - to - sustain rate based on very limited real value. IMO... scrap the banking system that allows money - without - value to exist, where Quantitative Easing (ie Printing of Money with absolutely no value) to exist solely for the aggrandisement of a few private benefactors, Shrewed analysis, this is why no financial institution is actually looking at the real problems - people make far to much money out of business as usual. The sad fact is it simply doesn't work and is intrinsically unstable requiring periodic resets (financial crashes). Every cycle concentrates more money in the hands of the bankers making the real purpose of money increasingly difficult to sustain. The main culprit's are the City of London, Bank of England and American Federal reserve who dreamt up the wheeze and have far to much invested to see it fail. I personally think that this is the big one and enough people now understand the slight of hand which is FIAT money to allow it to simply roll over into the next cycle. I hope so at least. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackFromTheDead Posted November 2, 2011 #134 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Shrewed analysis, this is why no financial institution is actually looking at the real problems - people make far to much money out of business as usual. The sad fact is it simply doesn't work and is intrinsically unstable requiring periodic resets (financial crashes). Every cycle concentrates more money in the hands of the bankers making the real purpose of money increasingly difficult to sustain. The main culprit's are the City of London, Bank of England and American Federal reserve who dreamt up the wheeze and have far to much invested to see it fail. I personally think that this is the big one and enough people now understand the slight of hand which is FIAT money to allow it to simply roll over into the next cycle. I hope so at least. Br Cornelius I completely agree Br... this is the Big one. The world is suffering at the hands of Bankers, and economists, to the point where there is no such thing as a self - sustaining economy. We owe it to the next generation to "Bite the Bullet" and give them a chance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2011 #135 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) I completely agree Br... this is the Big one. The world is suffering at the hands of Bankers, and economists, to the point where there is no such thing as a self - sustaining economy. We owe it to the next generation to "Bite the Bullet" and give them a chance... The trouble with economic's is that its the most politically motivated of the "sciences" and always distorts the reality to fit the ideology. It wears a mask of impartiality when it is the very essence of political manipulation. It is so far from any definition of science that it doesn't deserve to be in the same building. Lairs, Liars and thieves. Br Cornelius Edited November 2, 2011 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Bismarck Posted November 2, 2011 #136 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Lets be clear - the UK has not met the convergence criteria to join the Euro - so it cannot join...QED Great Britian can join the Euro any time they want. A lot of countries were allowed to join the Euro even though they didn’t meet the strict convergence criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted November 2, 2011 #137 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Great Britian can join the Euro any time they want. A lot of countries were allowed to join the Euro even though they didn't meet the strict convergence criteria. The only country that has joined without meeting the criteria is Greece, and that only because they cooked the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Bismarck Posted November 2, 2011 #138 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The only country that has joined without meeting the criteria is Greece, and that only because they cooked the books. Thats true. But its fairly up to the Council to decide. If the UK and Denmark wanted to join the EURO, they would have no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackFromTheDead Posted November 2, 2011 #139 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Thats true. But its fairly up to the Council to decide. If the UK and Denmark wanted to join the EURO, they would have no problems. They still have to meet the criteria of convergence - they dont, so they cannot join... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted November 2, 2011 #140 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) They still have to meet the criteria of convergence - they dont, so they cannot join... if the criteria was worthy of its title as some sort of quality in standard, then the euro zone wouldnt be in the predicament it finds itself in. i mean how many members need bailing out now and in the future? some criteria that. Edited November 2, 2011 by stevewinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatFenris Posted November 2, 2011 #141 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) if the criteria was worthy of its title as some sort of quality in standard, then the Euro zone wouldn't be in the predicament it finds itself in. I mean how many members need bailing out now and in the future? some criteria that. You do realize we're in a global economic slump, don't you? Edit: Spelling Edited November 2, 2011 by GreatFenris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted November 2, 2011 #142 Share Posted November 2, 2011 if the criteria was worthy of its title as some sort of quality in standard, then the euro zone wouldnt be in the predicament it finds itself in. i mean how many members need bailing out now and in the future? some criteria that. So, what is Britain's and the USA's excuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted November 2, 2011 #143 Share Posted November 2, 2011 You do realize we're in a global economic slump, don't you? Edit: Spelling oh yes, but lets not forget some are doing better than others, why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackFromTheDead Posted November 2, 2011 #144 Share Posted November 2, 2011 oh yes, but lets not forget some are doing better than others, why is that? Quantify "doing better", unless what you meant to say is "doing less - worse"... Looking at UK debt as a % of GDP is not very edifying if you are using the UK as a benchmark.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted November 2, 2011 #145 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Quantify "doing better", unless what you meant to say is "doing less - worse"... Looking at UK debt as a % of GDP is not very edifying if you are using the UK as a benchmark.. keith it might surprise you to know outside your eu bubble some countries economies are growing. and never entered recession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackFromTheDead Posted November 2, 2011 #146 Share Posted November 2, 2011 keith it might surprise you to know outside your eu bubble some countries economies are growing. and never entered recession. No surprise at all - those with sufficient slack in their economy, underexposed to FIAT debt, very low employment costs, etc are doing relatively well. It's only those "bloated" econnomies, based on fiscal constructs that aare really suffering. That said, germany, is doing surprisingly well (not only is it in the EU, but also a member of the dreaded Eurozone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted November 2, 2011 #147 Share Posted November 2, 2011 No surprise at all - those with sufficient slack in their economy, underexposed to FIAT debt, very low employment costs, etc are doing relatively well. It's only those "bloated" econnomies, based on fiscal constructs that aare really suffering. That said, germany, is doing surprisingly well (not only is it in the EU, but also a member of the dreaded Eurozone). of course Germany is in good shape the EU is made for them thats why they are footing all the bill's - dont forget to thank any german tax payers on these boards. greece goes under and the germans will be worrying as the price of the euro will increase and germany as a major exporter will be in trouble, the french are in no shape to help out. - keep an eye on Italy. they've more or less reached the point where they cannot afford to borrow anymore. the interest is bigger than the loan. lol. funny old world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Bismarck Posted November 2, 2011 #148 Share Posted November 2, 2011 They still have to meet the criteria of convergence - they dont, so they cannot join... Nope. Great Britain and Denmark, no. New countries seeking membership towards joining the EU, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Bismarck Posted November 2, 2011 #149 Share Posted November 2, 2011 keep an eye on Italy. they've more or less reached the point where they cannot afford to borrow anymore. Within one year, Italy and Portugal will be in the same state as Greece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackFromTheDead Posted November 2, 2011 #150 Share Posted November 2, 2011 of course Germany is in good shape the EU is made for them thats why they are footing all the bill's - dont forget to thank any german tax payers on these boards. greece goes under and the germans will be worrying as the price of the euro will increase and germany as a major exporter will be in trouble, the french are in no shape to help out. - keep an eye on Italy. they've more or less reached the point where they cannot afford to borrow anymore. the interest is bigger than the loan. lol. funny old world. You actually make a good point about Italy - a lot of pain in store for the Italians. Spain seems to have largely weathered the worst of it (except for huge unemployment - 21.5%!!). Still not in the clear, and wont be until it wakes up to the fact that it is incredibly (almost laughably) inefficient in everything it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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