New euro 'empire' plot by Brussels

[Guest]

According to the BBC World service today the Greek prime minister was "required" to attend a meeting with the German chancellor Merkel. emerging from the meeting a changed man. - now the referendum is not needed. and people on here applaud the fact greece is in the firm clutches of the EU. they applaud the fact greece is now so dependent on the EU it has no choice but to be ruled by foreign forces. the lesson is there for all to see. The EU even pays British farmers not to produce food - so making us dependent on the EU. and this is happening all over the union - this is the key. make all members so dependent so that breaking away is not an option.

So you would have Greece default and the nation plunged into worse poverty just so that they can have a referendum on the only realistic option available to them.

Unfortunately the Greeks have very few options open to them, and a withdrawal has never really been one of them. That is reality and living in fantasy land doesn't put bread on the table.

Br Cornelius

Edited November 3, 2011 by Guest

[BackFromTheDead]

. The EU even pays British farmers not to produce food - so making us dependent on the EU. and this is happening all over the union - this is the key. make all members so dependent so that breaking away is not an option.

No it doesnt!! "Set aside" as it was called, was abolished 2 years ago. Even so, I never heard of any farmer complaining of being paid NOT to plant corn wheat, whatever. saved them a lot of work.

[stevewinn]

No it doesnt!! "Set aside" as it was called, was abolished 2 years ago. Even so, I never heard of any farmer complaining of being paid NOT to plant corn wheat, whatever. saved them a lot of work.

the point was and is the eu tactics to make member states so dependent on the eu. that breaking away from the eu is akin to committing suicide - like we see with greece. proof if proof were needed.

[questionmark]

the point was and is the eu tactics to make member states so dependent on the eu. that breaking away from the eu is akin to committing suicide - like we see with greece. proof if proof were needed.

The point is that the EU does not have any tactics not approved by the heads of government and the parliament. I fail to see any majority against it there.

[stevewinn]

The point is that the EU does not have any tactics not approved by the heads of government and the parliament. I fail to see any majority against it there.

i see tomorrow i think it is the UK government with its crippled economy is going to vote on increasing UK contributions to the EU by 5% over the next five years. also planning on contributing more money to the IMF to help europe - but may pull back if money goes to greece. i hope we do loan money via the IMF to the EU but whack a high interest rate on top.

not bad for a country supposedly on its knees.

[questionmark]

In related news:

PM ditches referendum, welcomes consensus

Prime Minister George Papandreou said his bid to hold a referendum on Greece’s latest eurozone bailout had generated a “creative shock” that could lead to a coalition deal with New Democracy.

Speaking to ruling PASOK’s parliamentary group, Papandreou said that talks were under way with the conservative opposition party. The prime minister indicated he was dropping his idea of holding a referendum but insisted he never intended to hold a vote on Greece’s membership of the eurozone, even though that is what he indicated after talks with French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Cannes on Wednesday.

Read more

[questionmark]

i see tomorrow i think it is the UK government with its crippled economy is going to vote on increasing UK contributions to the EU by 5% over the next five years. also planning on contributing more money to the IMF to help europe - but may pull back if money goes to greece. i hope we do loan money via the IMF to the EU but whack a high interest rate on top.

not bad for a country supposedly on its knees.

The European Central Bank already put a stop on high interest...they just lowered it so if somebody else wants too much guess where they go...

[BackFromTheDead]

the point was and is the eu tactics to make member states so dependent on the eu. that breaking away from the eu is akin to committing suicide - like we see with greece. proof if proof were needed.

Still not correct... every time you try to show that the EU forces dependancy on member states, you are shown to be wrong ("set aside" just being an example).

It has nothing to do with "dependancy" but everything to do with "co-operation". If the time ever arrives that a Federal states of Europe becomes a reeality, it will be by consent, not by coercion

[Guest]

the point was and is the eu tactics to make member states so dependent on the eu. that breaking away from the eu is akin to committing suicide - like we see with greece. proof if proof were needed.

Set aside was used to reduce overproduction of food (remember those butter mountains we used to have), and pull back from destructive farming practices which were leading to 15% of all agricultural land been subject to sever erosion. I advise looking at the facts on this one.

May I also remind you that no one made Greece **** up its economy (least of all the EU who tryed to put in place rules to prevent it), it was entirely there own handywork. How is that making Greece dependent. If you run up a personal debt who's responsible - the EU

Br Cornelius

Edited November 3, 2011 by Guest

[Blackwhite]

Set aside was used to reduce overproduction of food (remember those butter mountains we used to have), and pull back from destructive farming practices which were leading to 15% of all agricultural land been subject to sever erosion. I advise looking at the facts on this one.

May I also remind you that no one made Greece **** up its economy (least of all the EU who tryed to put in place rules to prevent it), it was entirely there own handywork. How is that making Greece dependent. If you run up a personal debt who's responsible - the EU

Br Cornelius

The euro currency ruined Greece's economy like it ruined Ireland's.

I can't believe that some people can't see that. To most other people it's blatantly obvious.

And a country which was wise enought to stay out of the euro - the UK - is now having to fork out money to bail out the countries which were foolish enough to join the euro - Ireland and Greece.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Blackwhite

[questionmark]

The euro currency ruined Greece's economy like it ruined Ireland's.

I can't believe that some people can't see that. To most other people it's blatantly obvious.

And a country which was wise enought to stay out of the euro - the UK - is now having to fork out money to bail out the countries which were foolish enough to join the euro - Ireland and Greece.

Because you keep repeating it it will not be more true. But we grant you your prejudices.

[Guest]

Because you keep repeating it it will not be more true. But we grant you your prejudices.

Indeed, Blackwhite has strong opinions without a shred of evidence.

What can you expect from a man that gets most of his opinions from the Daily Mail.

Br Cornelius

[itsnotoutthere]

Indeed, Blackwhite has strong opinions without a shred of evidence.

What can you expect from a man that gets most of his opinions from the Daily Mail.

Br Cornelius

And would the opinions of the Guardian be any less skewed?

Seems everybody has their prejudices.

Edited November 5, 2011 by itsnotoutthere

[itsnotoutthere]

Because you keep repeating it it will not be more true. But we grant you your prejudices.

You don't need to keep repeating it, we are watching unfold on a daily basis.

A Greek peasant now has to find three times the money of his neighbour to buy a beer. Why? All part of the dream, I'm afraid. If Greeks are going to drive BMWs like their Northern European backers, they'll have to pay the same prices as Northern Europeans, even if it means borrowing the money to do so. In the glorious EU, no one is allowed to live a simple, low cost life. That would be treason against a state that is designed to invade every aspect of your life, control your finances and your thinking and dictate how you may live. In the name of "equality"

The Greeks have now been told that they can't have any more money to buy BMWs and their wages have just been slashed. Yet a coffee still costs £3 and they are still burdened with the crippling and expensive debt, legislation and regulation that a Northern European is taxed to death to supply. No wonder they are rioting.

Greece was sold a pup and is now trapped in poverty. Greeks will return to riding donkeys and herding goats for a pittance but unless they drop the Euro, they'll still be paying the same rate as you or I for that mandatory EU health and safety audit or translation of their benefits forms into Latvian. Drink up Kostas, another coffee?

[questionmark]

You don't need to keep repeating it, we are watching unfold on a daily basis.

A Greek peasant now has to find three times the money of his neighbour to buy a beer. Why? All part of the dream, I'm afraid. If Greeks are going to drive BMWs like their Northern European backers, they'll have to pay the same prices as Northern Europeans, even if it means borrowing the money to do so. In the glorious EU, no one is allowed to live a simple, low cost life. That would be treason against a state that is designed to invade every aspect of your life, control your finances and your thinking and dictate how you may live. In the name of "equality"

The Greeks have now been told that they can't have any more money to buy BMWs and their wages have just been slashed. Yet a coffee still costs £3 and they are still burdened with the crippling and expensive debt, legislation and regulation that a Northern European is taxed to death to supply. No wonder they are rioting.

Greece was sold a pup and is now trapped in poverty. Greeks will return to riding donkeys and herding goats for a pittance but unless they drop the Euro, they'll still be paying the same rate as you or I for that mandatory EU health and safety audit or translation of their benefits forms into Latvian. Drink up Kostas, another coffee?

As somebody who lived here for a while I know that the BMW mania is not new, in the late 80s, before the word Euro was even known, it was a Greek illness. And the cost increases have nothing to do with the EU, it is another Greek illness. Or how do you explain buying wares in Germany, France, Italy or the UK plus paying for the transport is cheaper than going to a store here? There are at least 20 cousins earning on a bar of Cadbury's before it hits the shelve here making it 200% more expensive than in the UK.

Most Greeks I know are quite happy to have, for the first time since King Otto (1843), stable currency. For the first time it was possible to actually save money instead of having to spend it for fear of being worth 20% less the next year.

But, as I heard from you, they "were much more happy growing watermelons and keeping goats" having a living standard of the 1800s. Doubt they would agree.

[Guest]

I remember going to Greece way back in 1988 and thinking it was a reasonably affordable country. I had a nice week.

I went back a decade later and it was more expensive than at home in England. I felt decidedly ripped off. this was before the Euro.

I came away vowing not to return to this overpriced and frankly boring country.

I think the Greeks got a bit greedy and as they say in Ireland, lost the run of themselves, on European credit. As I keep saying, Greece ruined its own economy and the Euro just facilitated them achieving it in a spectacular way. The subtle difference between Greece and Ireland, was in Greece the Government was profligate (and lied), in Ireland it was the people who were profligate and the Government simply turned a blind eye.

In neither case was it the fault or duty of Europe to manage the internal affairs of a Sovereign nation. if you want to sit at the big table then it behoves you to act like a grown up.

Br Cornelius

Edited November 5, 2011 by Guest

[Guest]

And would the opinions of the Guardian be any less skewed?

Seems everybody has their prejudices.

I do read the Guardian occassionally, but rarely if ever use it as a credible source in debating. If you want to be taken seriously I suggest using an academic source or at least an academic journal. Last time I checked the Mail wasn't either. I think chip wrapper would fit the bill.

Br Cornelius

[questionmark]

I remember going to Greece way back in 1988 and thinking it was a reasonably affordable country. I had a nice week.

I went back a decade later and it was more expensive than at home in England. I felt decidedly ripped off. this was before the Euro.

I came away vowing not to return to this overpriced and frankly boring country.

I think the Greeks got a bit greedy and as they say in Ireland, lost the run of themselves, on European credit. As I keep saying, Greece ruined its own economy and the Euro just facilitated them achieving it in a spectacular way. The subtle difference between Greece and Ireland, was in Greece the Government was profligate (and lied), in Ireland it was the people who were profligate and the Government simply turned a blind eye.

In neither case was it the fault or duty of Europe to manage the internal affairs of a Sovereign nation. if you want to sit at the big table then it behoves you to act like a grown up.

Br Cornelius

But that was at the cost of the locals. You should have seen a supermarket in winter on one of these islands or a small town. As a joke I once told a store owner that he should out price tags on the shelves if he intended to sell them. After the last tourist had left there was no money left to spend unless there was an uncle in America, Australia, Britain, France, Germany or whathaveyou sending care packets (in form of a cheque).

I find it totally cynical of some BNPers (or worse) to move their overfed and overcared ass in front of a keyboard telling us that they were better off before the EU. It was not better for the Greek, it was better for them...so that they can have a cheap vacation at the expense of the local misery.

Edited November 6, 2011 by questionmark

[Blackwhite]

Still not correct... every time you try to show that the EU forces dependancy on member states, you are shown to be wrong ("set aside" just being an example).

It has nothing to do with "dependancy" but everything to do with "co-operation". If the time ever arrives that a Federal states of Europe becomes a reeality, it will be by consent, not by coercion

If a United States of Europe is only to come about by the consent of the people then it will never become a reality.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Blackwhite

[Blackwhite]

Because you keep repeating it it will not be more true. But we grant you your prejudices.

The euro buggered up Greece's economy like it also buggered up Ireland's economy and it also buggered up the economies of several other Eurozone countries.

[Blackwhite]

I find it totally cynical of some BNPers (or worse) to move their overfed and overcared ass in front of a keyboard telling us that they were better off before the EU. It was not better for the Greek, it was better for them...so that they can have a cheap vacation at the expense of the local misery.

We were better off before we joined the EU.

It's for that reason that Britain needs to get out of the EU where it will prosper once more.

[Guest]

We were better off before we joined the EU.

It's for that reason that Britain needs to get out of the EU where it will prosper once more.

More acts of blind faith.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

The euro buggered up Greece's economy like it also buggered up Ireland's economy and it also buggered up the economies of several other Eurozone countries.

More repetition ain't making it any more true than last time you repeated it.

I know what buggered up Irelands economy - lax regulation of the banks and greedy property speculators. They would have done it with or without the Euro. Would you believe that as a sovereign state the Irish government was been fiscally prudent.

It was the citizens that done it.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

But that was at the cost of the locals. You should have seen a supermarket in winter on one of these islands or a small town. As a joke I once told a store owner that he should out price tags on the shelves if he intended to sell them. After the last tourist had left there was no money left to spend unless there was an uncle in America, Australia, Britain, France, Germany or whathaveyou sending care packets (in form of a cheque).

I find it totally cynical of some BNPers (or worse) to move their overfed and overcared ass in front of a keyboard telling us that they were better off before the EU. It was not better for the Greek, it was better for them...so that they can have a cheap vacation at the expense of the local misery.

The thing that disturbs me about Conservatively minded people is that they show a total incapacity to empathise with anyone who doesn't share their narrow cultural values. A tunnel vision that makes everyone not them the enemy. Tragically sad and pathetic.

Br Cornelius

[Blackwhite]

More repetition ain't making it any more true than last time you repeated it.

I know what buggered up Irelands economy - lax regulation of the banks and greedy property speculators. They would have done it with or without the Euro. Would you believe that as a sovereign state the Irish government was been fiscally prudent.

It was the citizens that done it.

Br Cornelius

The euro buggered Ireland's economy up. It was the euro which ended Ireland's boom times. It was the euro that ended the Irish being able to set interest rates to suit their economy and instead now have to be lumbered with interest rates which always suit Germany.

Although I've got a feeling you'll always be in denial. You are beyond help.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Blackwhite