The Saami of Lapland Their Place in the World

[The Puzzler]

I didn't twist anything. I took the word you used, for what it means, not for whatever you meant. So yes, a poor choice of words.

Source

It means that the maternal line is European while the paternal line is split between European and Asian. With the Asian haplogroup N1c (formerly N3) being in the majority by a slight margin. While any native males to the area would have intermingled with the incoming migrants/ancestral Sami, they couldn't have changed the maternal lineages and would most likely have had the same or similar maternal lines in any case as U5 is the oldest mtDNA in Europe/Western Asia. Nor would they have done so to the exclusion of their own women, evidence of which should be exhibited in the local genetics, particularly if it was different from the mtDNA of the incoming women. AFAIK, it's not. None of which makes this an 'intrusion', again your words.

There is a cultural connection simply because the natives of the Fosna/Komsa Culture passed a good deal of it on to the incoming ancestral Sami, while the Sami brought in their own genetic distinctiveness. Basically, it was a synthesis of cultures. None of which happened until some point between 9000 BP and 6600 BP, making it irrelevant to any NA or OLB claims as we've both seen. It's not the cultural connection that's been the problem here. It's been your speculation of people "coming in from the east" (which never happened as they were already there) and the Sami existing c.10,000 - 9000 BC (which we know is untrue as they date to c.7000 BC), which has been the problem.

cormac

My assumption was a male lineage entered the area from Asia, so this didn't happen - you think the native males (not Saami) may have intermingled/mated with the incoming ancestral Saami - that were not there at that point, as you have them coming in c. 7000BC..

So, some group of people was in Scandinavia, they were not the Saami as such - then around 7000BC an incoming group arrived - the Saami ancestors - they mingled - the DNA of women now of this whole group of people retains the European DNA of the original people whom the Saami came into?

Wouldn't it make sense though if the incoming group of "Saami" were mostly men, who came into the area and mated with the local women?

[The Puzzler]

'Brother_in_magic's response was more accurate than the response you quoted. The poster you quoted is just another person with little understanding of Sami genetics and early migration.

cormac

OK, thanks.

[The Puzzler]

I think I found a good paper to read on them: http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/dieda/hist/SamiPrehistRevisitNew.htm

Sami Prehistory Revisited: transactions, admixture and assimilation in the phylogeographic picture of Scandinavia

John Weinstock, University of Texas

[cormac mac airt]

My assumption was a male lineage entered the area from Asia, so this didn't happen - you think the native males (not Saami) may have intermingled/mated with the incoming ancestral Saami - that were not there at that point, as you have them coming in c. 7000BC..

So, some group of people was in Scandinavia, they were not the Saami as such - then around 7000BC an incoming group arrived - the Saami ancestors - they mingled - the DNA of women now of this whole group of people retains the European DNA of the original people whom the Saami came into descended from.

Wouldn't it make sense though if the incoming group of "Saami" were mostly men, who came into the area and mated with the local women?

Sometimes your wording is a bit confusing, but essentially the first bold part is correct.

The second paragraph is essentially correct, with one slight correction. Also, remember that the Finns were already in the area before the ancestral Sami ever made it there.

The third paragraph couldn't be correct as, if the Sami males were the ones to make up the group then the genetics wouldn't show N1c as the majority haplogroup. It would likely be some subgroup of R1a, R1b or I. The fact that it isn't negates this train of thought.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Sometimes your wording is a bit confusing, but essentially the first bold part is correct.

The second paragraph is essentially correct, with one slight correction. Also, remember that the Finns were already in the area before the ancestral Sami ever made it there.

The third paragraph couldn't be correct as, if the Sami males were the ones to make up the group then the genetics wouldn't show N1c as the majority haplogroup. It would likely be some subgroup of R1a, R1b or I. The fact that it isn't negates this train of thought.

cormac

OK, thanks for that cormac. Really appreciated. I am going to read that paper now.

[cormac mac airt]

OK, thanks for that cormac. Really appreciated. I am going to read that paper now.

Cool. Just remember that there may be parts in it that are dated, which is always true with genetics, and moreso the older the article is.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

After the LGM some of the descendants from the Iberian refuge headed north crossing the North Sea, the southern part of which was dry land – Doggerland – in the early Mesolithic, to what is now Southern Sweden and the West Norwegian coast. The group of descendants of the maternal ancestor of HV that headed north over the Caucasus became the progenitors of H and V.

The divergence time for the Sami haplogroup V sequences was estimated by Max Ingman and Ulf Gyllensten at 7600 years ago.[4] Haplogroup V is by far the most frequent haplogroup in the Swedish Sami and is present at significantly lower frequencies in Norwegian and Finnish subpopulations.[3] Torroni and colleagues have suggested that the spread of haplogroup V in Scandinavia and in eastern Europe is due to its late Pleistocene/early Holocene expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian glacial refugium.[7]

However subsequent studies found that haplogroup V is also significantly present in eastern Europeans. Furthermore, haplogroup V lineages with HVS-I transitions 16153 and 16298 that are frequent in the Sami population are much more widespread in eastern than in western Europe. So haplogroup V might have reached Fennoscandia via central/eastern Europe. Such a scenario is indirectly supported by the absence, among the Sami, of the pre-V mtDNAs that are characteristic of southwestern Europeans and northwestern Africans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics_of_the_Sami

OK, so this to me is saying: After the LGM, some people spread up North via Doggerland. This would have been part of the HV group. Unsure who they are now....maybe they were the Komsa.

But, another group moved out of the LGM, not heading straight up North but heading East out of Europe, then North through the Caucasus, then West into Fennoscandia.

From this radiation point of the Franco-Cantabrian area - it appears one group went South and became the Berbers...? cormac

Therefore this group is not Saami but part of a group HV, that the line of Saami migrated out of too..hence the early Berber/Sami connection.

----------------------

I1 is in Sami too.

When the ice began to melt, those carrying the I haplogroup expanded to the northwest in the form of three subclades I1a (most common in Scandinavia), I1b (common in the Balkans and Eastern Europe) and I1c (which has its highest frequency in Germany at ca. 11%). Clade I is widespread in Europe and mostly absent elsewhere.[10] This expansion can be seen in Map 5.

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/dieda/hist/SamiPrehistRevisitNew.htm

I'm unsure why it is not mentioned much as being part of the Sami makeup.....

Highest frequencies People of Northern Europe (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Sami, Estonian, Russian, Latvian, German, Dutch, English, Scottish, Irish), French

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)

--------------------

Subclade R1b expanded from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge after the LGM and is very common in Western Europe among other areas.

The Finnish Sami have the least of this. The Sami are broken into groups and each one is quite variable from the other so to look at their genetics as an overall group might be leading one astray.

The Northern Sami are the purest and least assimilated (they are the reindeer hunters) into Sweden where Swedish and Kola Sami show the highest R1b, possibly from assimilation.

[cormac mac airt]

OK, so this to me is saying: After the LGM, some people spread up North via Doggerland. This would have been part of the HV group. Unsure who they are now....maybe they were the Komsa.

But, another group moved out of the LGM, not heading straight up North but heading East out of Europe, then North through the Caucasus, then West into Fennoscandia.

Somewhat misleading actually, since mtDNA V originates in Iberia/Spain by c.13,600 BP and mtDNA H originates in Southwest Asia/Near East c.18,600 BP. So any HV would likely have moved into Europe prior to the LGM. Also, no group moved East through Europe then North through the Caucasus then West into Fennoscandia. MtDNA V did move northeast from the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge while U5 moved more in a northern direction from Central Europe, but NEITHER of them had to go through the Caucasus.

From this radiation point of the Franco-Cantabrian area - it appears one group went South and became the Berbers...? cormac

Therefore this group is not Saami but part of a group HV, that the line of Saami migrated out of too..hence the early Berber/Sami connection.

Look at a map carefully. The radiation point was likely somewhere between the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge and Central Europe, with the evidence leaning more towards Central Europe. The group, ancestral to the Berbers, would have belonged to U5, V, H1 and H3. The last two descended from H, which itself descends from HV. But this is just as relates to the Berbers. Remember that there were also U5 and V members in the Sami as well. So what we have is ancestral Sami with Haplogroups V and U5 and ancestral Berbers with Haplogroups V, U5, H1 and H3. And at that point there is no group HV.

I'm unsure why it is not mentioned much as being part of the Sami makeup.....

"I" is mentioned in the article "The Western and Eastern Roots of the Saamithe Story of Genetic Outliers Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes". Really depends on what source you're reading. Many are split, either discussing mtDNA or Y Chromosome DNA.

Subclade R1b expanded from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge after the LGM and is very common in Western Europe among other areas.

R1b DID NOT expand from the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge after the LGM, but came into Europe c.7000 BC via Northwestern Turkey as R1b1a2-M269.

cormac

Edited October 27, 2011 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

Deleted this post.

Actually this is what I had: To go through the Caucasus is a bit odd though. They would have to leave Europe, go through Greece, into Anatolia, make their way across the Taurus Mountains, up over the even bigger and treacherous Caucasus Mountains to arrive where? Exactly where IE originated so they say. Then from this point, go North into where, the steppes of Russia, mingle - then West again, I find that journey very strange unless it has reason to follow that direction.

The group of descendants of the maternal ancestor of HV that headed north over the Caucasus became the progenitors of H and V.

lol I thought myself, going through the Caucasus sounded ridiculous. I will ponder your post some more cormac.

Edited October 27, 2011 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

Deleted this post.

Actually this is what I had: To go through the Caucasus is a bit odd though. They would have to leave Europe, go through Greece, into Anatolia, make their way across the Taurus Mountains, up over the even bigger and treacherous Caucasus Mountains to arrive where? Exactly where IE originated so they say. Then from this point, go North into where, the steppes of Russia, mingle - then West again, I find that journey very strange unless it has reason to follow that direction.

The group of descendants of the maternal ancestor of HV that headed north over the Caucasus became the progenitors of H and V.

lol I thought myself, going through the Caucasus sounded ridiculous. I will ponder your post some more cormac.

That's one of the things I hate about Wiki, when it comes to genetics. Quite often the pages aren't well written and one can usually find that some of the information is quite dated, if not misunderstood completely. It's always best to check the sources at the bottom.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Okie dokey. I'm accepting that what you say is correct: MtDNA V did move northeast from the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge

I think that sounds the most logical too. I still think these people were the reindeer herders of the Magdalenian culture, and ended up eventually back where the reindeer were now, it might be possible the reindeer also moved in that direction, which again sounds more logical than as the crow flies (from F-CR straight up) to Scandinavia.

Actually, I note I must not have put the right link after this paragraph: After the LGM some of the descendants from the Iberian refuge headed north crossing the North Sea, the southern part of which was dry land – Doggerland – in the early Mesolithic, to what is now Southern Sweden and the West Norwegian coast. The group of descendants of the maternal ancestor of HV that headed north over the Caucasus became the progenitors of H and V.

That was from the http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/dieda/hist/SamiPrehistRevisitNew.htm link but I can see I added 2 more paragraphs from Wiki and did not insert this link after the first seperate paragraph. No matter, I hear you on Wiki, it's getting worse.

Edited October 28, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This picture is on the Gundestrup Cauldron, it is imo distinctly reindeer connected. This is connected to Denmark so it makes sense that it would be reindeer, the question is what sort of Celtic connection does it have, about reindeer, from Denmark, this is not Celtic lands as far as I know....

The silverworking techniques used in the cauldron are unknown from the Celtic world, but are consistent with the renowned Thracian sheet-silver tradition; the scenes depicted are not distinctively Thracian, but certain elements of composition, decorative motifs and illustrated items (such as the shoelaces on the "Cernunnos" figure) identify it as Thracian work.

In his 1928 book Buddhism in Pre-Christian Britain, Donald Alexander Mackenzie proposed the figure was related to depictions of the Buddha, and of the Western Buddha-god Virupaksha.[5]Also known as shiva by Hindus.

The 6 spoked wheels make an appearance: Plate B shows the bust of a female, flanked by two six-spoked wheels and by mythical animals: two elephant-like creatures and two griffins. Under the bust is a large hound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_Cauldron

It possibly connects to Siberian Shamanism, which is fairly similar to shamanic practices of the Sami.

The figure on the cauldron typically identified with Cernunnos is unbearded, in contrast with all the other male figures, and the similar Mohenjo-Daro figure, though having male genitalia, is dressed in female clothes, his posture resembling a yogic posture for channeling sexual energy still used by a caste of Indian sorcerers.[6] Taylor speculates that the "Cernunnos" figure, of ambiguous gender, may have been a deity of particular importance to the Thracian silverworking caste, part of a magical tradition common across Eurasia and still surviving in tantric yoga and Siberian shamanism.

--------------

The Finnish translation of the song Petteri Punakuono has resulted in Rudolph's general acceptance as the lead reindeer in the mythology of Joulupukki the Finnish version of Santa Claus, a figure from old Scandinavian tradition which is now merged with his American version with whom he shares many similarities with the exception that his work shop is situated in the mountains of Korvatunturi, he enters by the door rather than down the chimney and his reindeer do not fly.

It is has been suggested that the idea of flying reindeer may have resulted from the Shamans use of magic mushrooms. For more information concerning this idea, watch the video below

Magic mushrooms & Reindeer - Weird Nature - BBC animals - this one's for you Slim!! YouTube video to watch http://www.think-differently-about-sheep.com/Reindeer_myth_and_tradition.htm

(How do you link a YouTube video here?) All good, I persevere. All about how reindeer eat fly agaric Mushrooms, the Saami also. Maybe the reindeer are the only animals to see ultraviolet light because they eat this poison, I could see something like that being logical.

"Perhaps 19th century writers drew on these stories to create a Christmas Legend"

The flying deer stones of Mongolia

Reindeer feature on ancient mysterious stones called the Deer Stones, Mongolian ancient megaliths carved with symbols.

An air of mystery surrounds the deer stones as very little is known about their meaning or function, although some scholars speculate that they may have been created to represent important people

Worldwide there are over 700 of these stones, 500 of which are found in the in the Darkhat Valley, in northern Mongolia near the Siberian border. Although there is no definitive information concerning their origin the standing stones, erected in about 1000 BC, are thought to be connected with Shamanism and may mark the graves of important personages. In the midsection of some of the stones are cravings of flying deer and other animals. It is a traditional Mongolian

Bronze age deer stones are Mongolian ancient megaliths carved with symbols. The name comes from their carved stylised depictions of flying deer.

Similar stones have been found also in The Cimmerian sites, Cimmerians were ancient equestrian nomads of Indo-European origin- in central Asia. The flying deer stones have been incorporated into present day Buddhist rituals by the Tsaatan a small group of reindeer herders in Northern

Mongolia.

So flying reindeer were in shamanism LONG before the story of Santa came around.

Edited October 28, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Finding a reindeer in Greek myth makes me wonder....

Hercules capturing the Ceryneian Hind. Detail of The Twelve Labours Roman mosaic from Llíria (Valencia, Spain).

As far as I know, reindeer did not live in Greece.

In Greek mythology a deer, the Cerynian Hind, a large beautiful hind (female deer), is particularly associated with Artemis in her role as virginal huntress. Artemis, the chaste goddess of the moon, the hunt, animals and unmarried women, was one of the most widely venerated of the Ancient Greek deities.

The description of the Cerynian Hind, suggests this animal was a reindeer rather than another species of deer. The hind, a fabulous animal, with golden antlers like a stag and hooves of bronze or brass, was said to be able to outrun an arrow in flight. As a hind bearing antlers was unknown in Greece, the story suggests a reindeer; unlike other deer reindeer females bear antlers.

Legend has it that the third Labour of Heracles (Roman Hercules),a penance set by Eurystheus king of Tiryns, was to capture the Cerynian Hind sacred to Artemis and deliver her briefly to his patron, then rededicate it to Artemis. The swift flight of the creature made the task a formidable one for Heracles who once he had found the deer had to chase it throughout the Greek world for more than a year. Exhausted by the chase the reindeer looked for a resting place on a mountain called Artemisius, and came to the river Ladon. As she was about to cross Heracles shot and immobilised her.

http://www.think-differently-about-sheep.com/Reindeer_myth_and_tradition.htm

So, Artemis has the reindeer, just what I was thinking, Bronze Age Nordic times indicate the presence of TWINS, as well as the birth of the children of the first female spirit, the Maadteraahka, a boy and a girl - always twins in the North. I surely think Artemis as well as Apollo, who has connections to Hyperborea is from the North. Leto as light might be the first female spirit, comparable in Saami culture again as the Maadteraahka.

[cormac mac airt]

I think that sounds the most logical too. I still think these people were the reindeer herders of the Magdalenian culture, and ended up eventually back where the reindeer were now, it might be possible the reindeer also moved in that direction, which again sounds more logical than as the crow flies (from F-CR straight up) to Scandinavia.

And there's nothing saying it isn't, or couldn't have been true. I think what's messed you up, up till now, have been the few articles or parts thereof that are dated or just completely wrong. Hopefully you've gotten a better understanding of the genetics at hand, by this point. Leaving the reindeer out of it for a minute there is this in support of your Magdalenian connection:

The Magdalenian expansion from the southwest refugia

began ~15 kya110 and, on the basis of their geographic

distribution, it has been proposed that H1 and H3 (as

well as V) are markers for this expansion, having evolved

in the western refugium.

Source: Correcting for Purifying Selection: An Improved Human Mitochondrial Molecular Clock--The American Journal of Human Genetics 84, 740–759, June 12, 2009

The group of descendants of the maternal ancestor of HV that headed north over the Caucasus became the progenitors of H and V.

Read this sentence again, because whomever wrote it to begin with didn't realize what they were saying while they were writing it. What this sentence actually says is "the descendants of HV (which are H and V) became the ancestors of H and V". So in effect it's saying H and V are their own ancestors. Am beginning to hear the song "I'm my own grandpa" in my head. It should have said that the descendant groups of HV were H and V.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

So, are Artemis and Apollo Nordic deities, particularly Saami ones, who managed to find a place in the Mediterranean.

The myth has Apollo going to be huge, if he is birthed, Zeus needs to watch his back, because Hera knows, their cult will overtake his own.

Leto, Apollo and Artemis always seemed like outsiders, and Apollo was God of Troy, which indicates the Trojans might have had a connection to the Northern lands, possibly even the Saami lands, since the mention of Hyperboreans sending tribute to Greece for Apollo confirms the Northern people did worship Apollo.

Apollo and Artemis and the male/female duality of the Moon. Troy would have had to have been a moon worshipping centre, built after a huge Flood, by people who migrated there.

The concept of Artemis/Diana as a virgin huntress of the Moon is not at all Mediterranean, nor was her short tunic skirt, virgins were treasured in Northern European cultures.

Even when the Christians came Artemis was not going to be shaken from her foundations quite so easy, her cult was ingrained and important to many.

Ancient Greek writers linked Artemis (Doric Artamis) by way of folk etymology to artemes (ἀρτεμής) ‘safe’[5] or artamos (ἄρταμος) ‘butcher’.[6][7] However, the name Artemis (variants Arktemis, Arktemisa) is most likely related to Greek árktos ‘bear’ (from PIE *h₂ŕ̥tḱos), supported by the bear cult that the goddess had in Attica (Brauronia) and the Neolithic remains at the Arkouditessa, as well as the story about Callisto, which, perhaps, originally was about Artemis (epithet Calliste).[8] This cult was a survival of very old totemic and shamanistic rituals and formed part of a larger bear cult found further afield in other Indo-European cultures. While connection with Anatolian names has been suggested,[9][10] the earliest attested forms of the name Artemis is the Mycenaean Greek a-te-mi-to and a-ti-mi-te, written in Linear B at Pylos.[11] Artemis was venerated in Lydia as Artimus.

Bear Cult. Totemic and shamanistic rituals - sounds even more Sami as we go on.

The Saami have a ritual for hunting bear, it's very deep and ancient and in respect for the bear totally, they wear their best clothes to go hunt the bear, show it massive respect and kill it accordingly, they never kill bears willy-nilly.

I do not think Artemis name comes from Greek Arktos, bear - it's not Arkemis, and in Linear B it's an At word, never ak.

shoot (v.)

O.E. sceotan "to shoot" (class II strong verb; past tense sceat, pp. scoten), from P.Gmc. *skeutanan (cf. O.S. skiotan, O.N. skjota, O.Fris. skiata, Du. schieten, Ger. schießen), from PIE base *skeud- "to shoot, to chase, to throw, to project" (cf. Skt. skundate "hastens, makes haste," O.C.S. iskydati "to throw out," Lith. skudrus "quick, nimble"). Meanings "send forth swiftly" and "wound with missiles" were in O.E. In ref. to pool playing, the verb is attested from 1926. Meaning "to inject by means of a hypodermic needle".........

Skjota for instance, say it, do you hear Artemis - I do - in the jota part - that is the beginning of Artemis name, I read once mus is a slang word for woman in Nordic, meaning mouse.

She is a shooter-miss - (sk)jotamus.

Or is that too logical?

[The Puzzler]

And there's nothing saying it isn't, or couldn't have been true. I think what's messed you up, up till now, have been the few articles or parts thereof that are dated or just completely wrong. Hopefully you've gotten a better understanding of the genetics at hand, by this point. Leaving the reindeer out of it for a minute there is this in support of your Magdalenian connection:

Source: Correcting for Purifying Selection: An Improved Human Mitochondrial Molecular Clock--The American Journal of Human Genetics 84, 740–759, June 12, 2009

Read this sentence again, because whomever wrote it to begin with didn't realize what they were saying while they were writing it. What this sentence actually says is "the descendants of HV (which are H and V) became the ancestors of H and V". So in effect it's saying H and V are their own ancestors. Am beginning to hear the song "I'm my own grandpa" in my head. It should have said that the descendant groups of HV were H and V.

cormac

Yes, thank you the genetics enlightenment, it really does help me as I do like to follow the paths that could be true, yes, my problem is in understanding some of the terminology and the concept of genetics overall. I'm not too proud to ask for help, I like to learn.

That bit of info is good too, about how V would have radiated out from the area, I really am pleased about that, not so I can go, yeah, I was right, but because it really seemed to indicate, from the moment I came across it, some connection to the Saami.

[The Puzzler]

Let's try Wiki again... Haplogroup V.

It is found with particularly high concentrations in the Saami People of northern Scandinavia, as well as the Basque people (10.4%) [1]and somewhat higher among the isolated Pasiegos in nearby Cantabria. It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia.[3] The highest levels are in Scandinavian and Western and North African populations. It is spread at varying low levels across Europe and smaller portions of West and Central Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_V_(mtDNA)

In the Basque people, so you'd expect at one point, I guess prior to 13,600BP (Haplogroup V is believed to have originated around the Western Mediterranean region, approximately 13,600 years before present- possibly on Iberia. It derives from the Haplogroup HV0a) these people may have been part of one group. The Basques AND Saami show very little or no blue, as do Sardinians, which is in most surrounding populations. The blue peaks in North West South Asian populations. I note also this haplotype V is also high among Berbers.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/the-men-of-the-north-the-sami/

Would it be likely that prior to 13,600BP or around that date the Magdalenian culture split up, with groups spreading out, one went into North Africa (Berber), one went North east, eventually reaching Lapland (becoming the Saami), one was in Sardinia and one stayed in the area of the Basques...?

I do think these 3 groups (Basques, Berbers, Saami) could have something in common, from a very ancient time, prior to 10,000BC. I'm not placing Saami at that date, I understand now, I think it's a possibility however, they were all one group at one point and each of these cultures radiated out from a central point ie; the Magdalenian culture.

Edited October 28, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I don't think people migrate or make movements from somewhere without reason, famine, flooding etc.

It could have been the large ice melt sea level rise into the Bay of Biscay that caused a migration out of this area, a change in temperature and change also of animals to hunt, who would have themselves migrated Northward, ie; reindeer. From this event they had memories and kept them sacred. I also think the upheaval caused when Doggerland submerged and broke up from a huge landslide tsunami would have rumbled through the ground causing even possibly larger tsunamis elsewhere. I think the Bay of Biscay is close enough to have had some kind of fallout from that event too.

Now, I don't even want to mention the A word but at this point I'm finding it a little hard to avoid.

After years of research on it, I find it a bit hard to think the story the priests told Solon would have been exactly right or interpreted by Plato exactly right. It could simply be a recall of a major flooding in the Atlantic area, which also corresponds to the way they interpreted the formation of the Universe, because many people skip over the long winded description by Timaeus in the narratives but I closely studied that part also. The description Plato 'Timaeus' gives of the formation of the Universe matches to the formation and description of Atlantis if you twist your brain enough. Not to mention that narrative is actually titled Timaeus so it pays to read what Timaeus actually is saying.

This time frame is given by Herodotus, from his own info of the priests of Vulcan as when the Egyptian Gods began. Co-incidence? Hardly.

Poseidon is only worshipped by Libyans in the beginning as Herodotus also tells us, so it is near impossible to put Atlantis out of the Libyan realm, he has to be Berber associated imo. The people who had been in the refuge area, who migrated into Northern Africa (Libya) could have taken their associated mythology and stories/Gods etc with them.

This is not being stupid really and obsessing over finding Atlantis, I find the above logical and possible. It could equate to a creation of the World (AS IS) not a prior cold, dust laden atmosphere Earth with very little (if any) rain and the Hebrew Bible also has God creating a mist over the world, which may have first been when rain came again, and proper sunshine, plants started to grow etc.

The shamans of the North and all through Siberia, where ice was until the melt, may have originally been part of the European area of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge, because that is the kind of spiritualism they would have practised there, before the onset of organised religion, so again, it seems logical to think practitioners of it, would be tied into a more ancient time.

[The Puzzler]

The Seidis of the Saami I find particularly interesting.

Reindeer as part of the religion of the Sami

The Sami, already referred to above are perhaps the most well known of the nomadic reindeer herders .

The religion of the Sami is animistic, certain aspects of which involve reindeer

Sieidis, Seita or Storjunkare, depending on local dialect, are the sacred places of the sami, and are located where there are unusual landforms which are noticeably different from the surrounding landscape, prominent places of high elevation such as the mountain in the photograph Here flickr.com/photos or in a meadow. Some Sieidis were man made and may be comprised of unusually shaped stones some aspect of which may bear some likeness to animals, a man or a god. It is believed that a stone taken from such a place will grow lighter when the bearer guesses what the place wants. *7)

Found throughout Northern Scandinavia, Sieidis were often located near caves, hunting grounds or bodies of water where the Sami fished or set up on a mountain top. Sieidis were considered by Sami religious shamanic beliefs to be spiritual "focal points" and were worshiped as gateways that lead into the spirit world. Sacrifices of animals including reindeer, antlers have been found at these sites, and other objects were made at the site of Sieidis. Clans gathered round these sacred places.

Each Sami family or clan had its own Siedis in the area in which they lived and every settlement also. Sometimes a private individual had his own Sieidis to which he prayed for good fortune. It had no regular shape and in addition to large stones as in the photograph here: archaeologydaily.com, where you can also read an interesting article about Sieidis and the new interest in them.

In addition to the rock forms mentioned above Seitas were comprised of smooth or unusual stones from a streams, a tree stump or even just a simple pole. During the summer time honour was done to them by spreading fresh green leaves while in the winter time they were strewed with green fir twigs. it was believed that the Siedis had power over all animals and gave luck to anyone who hunted. At siedis sacrifices were made to the spirits for protection against ill fortune befalling the herds of reindeer and were believed to provide instruction concerning methods of catching reindeer. The hide and hooves of reindeer, along with the occasional sacrifice of a dog were given as offerings in return for these favours.

http://www.think-differently-about-sheep.com/Reindeer_myth_and_tradition.htm

I believe this concept is also in Atlantis and Libya in the form of Mt Atlas or even a smaller rock mount as mentioned, a small hill was the centre of Atlantis. Seidi is VERY much like the word Poseidon, a word that is hard to know what it really means. I think it means: Papa Seidi - Po Seidi - Poseidon - a rock or earth God, of earthquakes.

[cormac mac airt]

Would it be likely that prior to 13,600BP or around that date the Magdalenian culture split up, with groups spreading out, one went into North Africa (Berber), one went North east, eventually reaching Lapland (becoming the Saami), one was in Sardinia and one stayed in the area of the Basques...?

I do think these 3 groups (Basques, Berbers, Saami) could have something in common, from a very ancient time, prior to 10,000BC. I'm not placing Saami at that date, I understand now, I think it's a possibility however, they were all one group at one point and each of these cultures radiated out from a central point ie; the Magdalenian culture.

You're trying to push things further back than is necessary and you don't need to, as the Magdalenian ends at about the same time as the Sami-Berber split c.9000 BC. And yes, these three would have likely had a common ancestry that far back.

After years of research on it, I find it a bit hard to think the story the priests told Solon would have been exactly right or interpreted by Plato exactly right.

And yet, there's no evidence that any such story of any kind EVER existed in Egypt.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

You're trying to push things further back than is necessary and you don't need to, as the Magdalenian ends at about the same time as the Sami-Berber split c.9000 BC. And yes, these three would have likely had a common ancestry that far back.

And yet, there's no evidence that any such story of any kind EVER existed in Egypt.

cormac

I was going with that date they gave 13,600BP but that's fine if it's 9000BC, I want to try and get this right.

I know....even if this is all so, it doesn't even have to do with Atlantis, it's all still very interesting. I just couldn't help myself. lol

Edited October 28, 2011 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

I was going with that date they gave 13,600BP but that's fine if it's 9000BC, I want to try and get this right.

I know....even if this is all so, it doesn't even have to do with Atlantis, it's all still very interesting. I just couldn't help myself. lol

Personally, I think the subject of Doggerland is alot more interesting than any fictional Atlantis. Even though it's not likely that Doggerland was heavily populated before it's demise. The genetic migrations across Europe have pretty well ruled out any fictional claims of peoples, like the ones we've both come across.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

So, we have a group of people, which shows in an ancient Haplogroup V in the area of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge, contemporary with the end of the Magdalenian Culture - as I said, out of this came 3 distinctive groups we know today, one became the Basques, one melded into North Africa and became Berbers, one left Central West Europe and travelled North East. Eventually over time, some of this group would have headed into Scandinavia c. 3000BC, becoming known as the Saami.

They have inhabited the northern arctic and sub-arctic regions of Fenno-Scandinavia and Russia for at least 5000 years. ie; c. 3000BC.

I find that interesting enough in itself. The journey the line who became Sami took would be intriguing and this is my next step. It appears they headed North East so my question next would be did they go South of the Swiss Alps or above them...

Treading on thin ice, the other haplogroup found in the Saami, is U5b - U5b arose around 24000 years ago.

Among the oldest mtDNA haplogroups found in European remains of Homo sapiens is U5. The age of U5 is estimated at 50,000 but could be as old as 60,500 years. Approximately 11% of total Europeans and 10% of European-Americans are in haplogroup U5.

The presence of haplogroup U5 in Europe pre-dates the expansion of agriculture in Europe. Bryan Sykes' popular book The Seven Daughters of Eve calculated that it arose 45,000-50,000 years ago in the area of Delphi, Greece and named the originator of haplogroup U5 Ursula. However the details related to location and age are speculative. Barbujani and Bertorelle estimate the age of haplogroup U5 as about 52,000 years ago, being the oldest subclade of haplogroup U.[11] Thus, the name 'Ursula' could be applied to the entirety of haplogroup U, as well as U5.

U5 has been found in human remains dating from the Mesolithic in England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Russia [12], Sweden [13], and France [14] .

Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians, but it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals from this haplogroup were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe ~10kya.

Haplogroup U5 is found also in small frequencies and at much lower diversity in the Near East and parts of Africa, suggesting back-migration of people from northern Europe to the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_(mtDNA)

*Is it like a family tree cormac, where each one is a 'parent' of the next one...? eg: it is U5, then a mixing occurs and those people are U5a...that sort of thing? If U5b (24,000) arose earlier than U5a,(20,000) what does that mean...? That U5b is a direct but different offshoot off U5..? I'm just getting a bit lost, I've read up heaps lately but just need clarification on these basic concepts. In the bolded sentence above it appears both U5b and U5a are in Saami but just U5b is as far as I know..yes? Does it mean anything after U5b (list below) is NOT in the Saami..?

U5b arose around 24000 years ago and has polymorphisms in 150 7768 14182( + U5 polymorphisms).

U5b1 arose around 18000 years ago and has polymorphisms in 5656( + U5b polymorphisms).

U5b1a has polymorphisms in 5656 15097, 16189 and have lost their polymorphism in 7028 (backmutation)( + U5b1 polymorphisms).

U5b1b: has been found in Fulbe and Papel people in Guinea-Bissau and Yakuts people of northeastern Siberia. [16][17] It arose around 11000 years ago and have polymorphisms in 12618 16189 ( + U5b1 polymorphisms).

U5b1c has polymorphisms in 5656 15191, 16189, 16311 + U5b1 polymorphisms) and arose about 13000 years ago.

U5b1d has polymorphisms in 5437 5656 and have lost their polymorphism in 16192 (backmutation)( + U5b1 polymorphisms).

U5b1e has polymorphisms in 152 2757 10283 12616 16189 and have lost their polymorphism in 16192 (backmutation)( + U5b1 polymorphisms) and arose about 6600 years ago.U5b1e is mainly seen in central Europe among Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians and southern Russians..[18]

U5b1g has polymorphisms in 151 228 573.1C 5656 10654 13759 14577 ( + U5b1 polymorphisms).

U5b2 arose around 24000 years ago and has polymorphisms in 1721 13637( + U5b polymorphisms).

U5b3: The subclade is found primary on the island of Sardinia.[

Edited October 28, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Personally, I think the subject of Doggerland is alot more interesting than any fictional Atlantis. Even though it's not likely that Doggerland was heavily populated before it's demise. The genetic migrations across Europe have pretty well ruled out any fictional claims of peoples, like the ones we've both come across.

cormac

Doggerland certainly is interesting, I'd love a time machine, that's for sure!

[cormac mac airt]

I find that interesting enough in itself. The journey the line who became Sami took would be intriguing and this is my next step. It appears they headed North East so my question next would be did they go South of the Swiss Alps or above them...

Treading on thin ice, the other haplogroup found in the Saami, is U5b - U5b arose around 24000 years ago

As far as U5/U5b is concerned then NEITHER, since both would appear to originate from Hungary/the Carpathian Basin.

Is it like a family tree cormac, where each one is a 'parent' of the next one...? eg: it is U5, then a mixing occurs and those people are U5a...that sort of thing? If U5b (24,000) arose earlier than U5a,(20,000) what does that mean...? That U5b is a direct but different offshoot off U5..? I'm just getting a bit lost, I've read up heaps lately but just need clarification on these basic concepts.

Yes, it's exactly like a family tree with U being the ancestor of U5, which is the ancestor of U5a and U5b, etc. But NO, there is no 'mixing' occuring from U5 to U5a. What there is, basically, is a slight genetic change that separates U5a from its parent U5 but still shows it as a descendant. As to U5a and U5b, they BOTH descend from U5 and NOT U5b descending from U5a, as each at this point are their own separate subgroups. Reading it is alot more confusing, so I'm trying to stay away from using the separate terms of "haplogroups", "haplotypes", "SNP's", "alleles", etcetra, so as not to confuse you more.

cormac