The Saami of Lapland Their Place in the World

[The Puzzler]

In a nutshell, the more you read Wiki the more it screws you up. Shall I try this one more time?

cormac

lol

Which parts would have been wrong?

One question - where do you think the U5b1b came from (geographically) in the Yakuts?

Edited October 29, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

U5, U5a and U5b all originated in Central Europe.

That might be so but that is not U5b1b - by the time it got to this point, it might not have been in Central Europe....

I find the terminology confusing - they are saying U5, U5a and b subclades are in Saami but it is U5b1b in them, which doesn't necessarily mean it came in where U5 or even U5a or b came from, does it?

Example:

U5 is in Central Europe c. 50,000 years ago, is this where U5b1b would also come from??

Doesn't 40,000 years make a difference where the point is?

My ancestor was in Cornwall but it doesn't mean I am.

Edited October 29, 2011 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

Saami did not merge into V+U5b1b until 9000BC. (Give or take some) Meaning that U5b1b DIDN'T ORIGINATE until c.6600 +/- 2400 BC.

There was no 'merging' here. The ancestral group split 9000 BP (not BC) sending the Sami group north and the Berber group south.

Yakuts only have U5b1b, not V - yet they appear to be exactly like the Saami.

Culturally they probably are and they do share U5b1b which is the major haplogroup. Seeing as they don't originate from southwestern Europe, there's no reason for them to carry mtDNA V since U5b was very widespread.

U5b1b is in both - indicating a movement of U5b1b seperate from a cojoined V+U5b1b haplogroup.

Not sure what you mean here.

Among the oldest mtDNA haplogroups found in European remains of Homo sapiens is U5. The age of U5 is estimated at 50,000 but could be as old as 60,500 years. Approximately 11% of total Europeans and 10% of European-Americans are in haplogroup U5.

This is incorrect as I've already referenced before. The dates again for U5, U5a and U5b being 30,400 BP/19,900 BP/and 23,800 BP respectively.

Source: The Peopling of Europe from the Mitochondrial Haplogroup U5 Perspective--Received February 12, 2010; Accepted March 30, 2010; Published April 21, 2010

Since U5 is so old it does not have to have originated in Europe because we know modern man came into Europe from the East plus if it's so old in Central Europe why do only 10% of people in Europe have it...

Actually, yes it does. It's the parent of Ub, which is U, that doesn't originate in Europe. U originates around the southern Caucasus/Northeastern Turkey area c.54,000 BP.

The Saami and Berbers are a mix of both, but not from the same joining - just co-incidence - that V went both North and South and U5b1b (from Lake Baikal or Nth Caucasus) went West into North Scandinavia, Lapland, Nth Finland and South West (into Libya).

No, it't not a coincidence. V and U5 started in Central and Southwestern Europe.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

I find the terminology confusing - they are saying U5, U5a and b subclades are in Saami but it is U5b1b in them, which doesn't necessarily mean it came in where U5 or even U5a or b came from, does it?

One of the things one has to look out for, and it really isn't fair to the average person, is with discussing a haplogroups migrating somewhere. Because, quite often, terms are used interchangeably when they actually make understanding that much harder. Example here from the various links would be using the terms U5, U5b, U5b1, U5b1b and U5b1b1. While technically they are ALL right, specifically each is a separate entity unto itself. When talking about Sami being U5b1b, they are technically U5b1b1 and yes, we do know approximately where it originated from.

It has been previously suggested that subcluster U5b1b1

reached northern Europe from an Iberian source, via central/

eastern Europe, in the post-LGM times, sometime after ,15 kya

[5],[10]. Tambets et al. [10] have noted the considerable diversity

of the U5b1b1 subcluster in western and southern Europe,

suggesting that these regions, rather than eastern Europe, were the

probable place of origin of U5b1b1. Analysis of complete

mitochondrial U5b-genomes indicates that the origin of the whole

U5b1 subcluster can be associated with southern and central parts

of Europe, because each part of U5b1-phylogeny demonstrates the

presence of earlier subclusters of Mediterranean prevalence (such

as U5b1b1b, U5b1b1d, U5b1b1e, U5b1c, U5b1d), along with a

central European cluster (U5b1a, U5b1b1c, U5b1e) (Figure 1,

Figure S2).

Source: The Peopling of Europe from the Mitochondrial Haplogroup U5 Perspective

And for an actual breakdown in ages for the U5b groups, note the following:

U5 - 30,400 BP

U5b - 23,800 BP

U5b1 - 17,700 BP

U5b1b - 11,100 BP

U5b1b1 - 7200 BP

Source: The Peopling of Europe from the Mitochondrial Haplogroup U5 Perspective

U5 is in Central Europe c. 50,000 years ago, is this where U5b1b would also come from??

Yes.

My ancestor was in Cornwall but it doesn't mean I am.

My oldest traceable mtDNA ancestress came from Ireland, doesn't mean I live in Ireland, but does mean I descend from the Irish along that maternal line.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

No, it't not a coincidence. V and U5 started in Central and Southwestern Europe.

cormac

This is where the confusion for me is coming. Your above answer helped alot.

OK, so a line of each of these groups radiated out of Central Europe c. 9000BP. ?

It's like a maths exam where you have the answer but you need to give the working out.

I'm sorry I'm being so dumb - I'm finding it very confusing and conflicting.

Edited October 29, 2011 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

This is where the confusion for me is coming. Your above answer helped alot.

OK, so a line of each of these groups radiated out of Central Europe c. 9000BP. ?

It's like a maths exam where you have the answer but you need to give the working out.

I'm sorry I'm being so dumb - I'm finding it very confusing and conflicting.

Good.

Yes.

Nope, more like a layman trying to understand a conversation between two or more academicians, which is what it really is.

You're not being dumb. Most of the technical papers are written by professionals for professionals and not for the average reader. What DOESN'T really help, is that sites like Wiki are written by layman. Quite often with little or no understanding of the topic, nor any real need to keep current. THAT is what you are running into.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

OK, one more try on this idea.

So, after the ice receded, groups of the U5b1b1 went North East - It has been previously suggested that subcluster U5b1b1

reached northern Europe from an Iberian source, via central/

eastern Europe, in the post-LGM times, sometime after ,15 kya as you said, probably NORTH of the Swiss Alps - this might be when a small group of them settled near Lake Baikal becoming one of their maternal haplogroups, of the Yakuts.

Same for the Berbers, a group of this haplogroup went South from the original U5b1b1 point.

As they kept on, not the Yakut group, whom would have been a small band who stayed there, over time mixing with indigenous Asiatic groups, the original group enters Scandinavia via Finland from Russia.

PS: I will not use Wiki anymore for info on this.

Edited October 29, 2011 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

OK, one more try on this idea.

So, after the ice receded, groups of the U5b1b1 went North East - It has been previously suggested that subcluster U5b1b1

reached northern Europe from an Iberian source, via central/

eastern Europe, in the post-LGM times, sometime after ,15 kya as you said, probably NORTH of the Swiss Alps - this might be when a small group of them settled near Lake Baikal becoming one of their maternal haplogroups, of the Yakuts.

Same for the Berbers, a group of this haplogroup went South from the original U5b1b1 point.

As they kept on, not the Yakut group, whom would have been a small band who stayed there, over time mixing with indigenous Asiatic groups, the original group enters Scandinavia via Finland from Russia.

PS: I will not use Wiki anymore for info on this.

Could you clarify what you mean here, because you're losing me.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Could you clarify what you mean here, because you're losing me.

cormac

OK, I'm trying to figure out how the Yakuts have this same haplogroup as the Saami, that is U5b1b or U5b1b1 depending on what you read.

I'll write it again and clarify better.

So, after the ice receded, groups of the U5b1b1 went North East - It has been previously suggested that subcluster U5b1b1

reached northern Europe from an Iberian source, via central/

eastern Europe, in the post-LGM times, sometime after ,15 kya as you said, probably NORTH of the Swiss Alps - this might be when a small group of them settled near Lake Baikal becoming one of their maternal haplogroups, of the Yakuts.

Same for the Berbers, a group of this haplogroup went South from the original U5b1b1 point.

---

As they kept on, the original group enters Scandinavia via Finland from Russia.

The Yakut group, whom would have been a small band who stayed there at Lake Baikal, over time mixing with indigenous Asiatic groups, now show some of the old haplogroup that would have spread out of the F-C refuge as mentioned on the journey to Scandinavia.

[cormac mac airt]

OK, I'm trying to figure out how the Yakuts have this same haplogroup as the Saami, that is U5b1b or U5b1b1 depending on what you read.

I'll write it again and clarify better.

So, after the ice receded, groups of the U5b1b1 went North East - It has been previously suggested that subcluster U5b1b1

reached northern Europe from an Iberian source, via central/

eastern Europe, in the post-LGM times, sometime after ,15 kya as you said, probably NORTH of the Swiss Alps - this might be when a small group of them settled near Lake Baikal becoming one of their maternal haplogroups, of the Yakuts.

Same for the Berbers, a group of this haplogroup went South from the original U5b1b1 point.

---

As they kept on, the original group enters Scandinavia via Finland from Russia.

The Yakut group, whom would have been a small band who stayed there at Lake Baikal, over time mixing with indigenous Asiatic groups, now show some of the old haplogroup that would have spread out of the F-C refuge as mentioned on the journey to Scandinavia.

Essentially correct, the two groups are related, but neither is ancestral to the other. You could consider them sister-groups.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Essentially correct, the two groups are related, but neither is ancestral to the other. You could consider them sister-groups.

cormac

Yay!

Yes, related but not ancestral TO THE OTHER, only ancestral from the U5b1b haplogroup and timeframe of that haplogroup, a common ancestor to both groups.

[cormac mac airt]

Yay!

Yes, related but not ancestral TO THE OTHER, only ancestral from the U5b1b haplogroup and timeframe of that haplogroup, a common ancestor to both groups.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Here is some info that tells about a possible comet impact or close pass by c. 13,000 years ago, roughtly 11,000BC or if not then, possibly in the Younger Dryas timeframe.

THE DAY THE EARTH FROZE: AN HOUR-LONG STORM STARTED A MINI ICE AGE, SAY SCIENTISTS - 2nd April 2010

An hour-long hailstorm from space bombarded the Earth 13,000 years ago - plunging the planet into a mini-ice age, scientists claimed today.

The catastrophe was caused by a disintegrating comet and saw the planet sprayed by thousands of frozen boulders made of ice and dust.

The collisions wiped out huge numbers of animal species all over the world, disrupted the lives of our stone age ancestors and triggered a freeze that lasted more than 1,000 years.

Scientists have long been puzzled by what caused a sudden cooling of up to 8C (14F) just as the Earth was warming up at the end of the last ice age.

EVIDENCE FOR AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL IMPACT 12,900 YEARS AGO THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THE MEGAFAUNAL EXTINCTIONS AND THE YOUNGER DRYAS COOLING - R. B. Firestone et al.

Communicated by Steven M. Stanley, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Honolulu, HI, July 26, 2007 (received for review March 13, 2007)

THE YOUNGER DRYAS IMPACT EVENT AND THE CYCLES OF COSMIC CATASTROPHES – CLIMATE SCIENTISTS AWAKENING

NEW EVIDENCE OF ICE AGE COMET FOUND IN ICE CORES - March 30, 2010

A new study cites spikes of ammonium in Greenland ice cores as evidence for a giant comet impact at the end of the last ice age, and suggests that the collision may have caused a brief, final cold snap before the climate warmed up for good.

In the April Geology, researchers describe finding chemical similarities in the cores between a layer corresponding to 1908, when a 50,000-metric-ton extraterrestrial object exploded over Tunguska, Siberia, and a deeper stratum dating to 12,900 years ago. They argue that the similarity is evidence that an object weighing as much as 50 billion metric tons triggered the Younger Dryas, a millennium-long cold spell that began just as the ice age was loosing its grip (SN: 6/2/07, p. 339).

The presence of ammonium suggests that the Tunguska object was most likely a comet, rather than asteroids or meteoroids, Melott says. Any object slung into the Earth’s atmosphere from space typically moves fast enough to heat the surrounding air to about 100,000?Celsius, says Melott, so hot the nitrogen in the air splits and links up with oxygen to form nitrates. And indeed, nitrates are found in snow around the Tunguska blast. But ammonium, found along with the nitrates, contains hydrogen that most likely came from an incoming object rich in water ?like an icy comet.

More than a century after the impact, scientists are still debating what kind of object blew up over Tunguska in 1908. They also disagree about whether an impact or some other climate event caused the Younger Dryas at the end of the ice age. But the presence of ammonium in Greenland ice cores at both times is accepted.

“There’s "a remarkable peak of ammonium ions in ice cores from Greenland at the beginning of the Younger Dryas," comments Paul Mayewski, a glaciologist at the University of Maine in Orono who was not involved in the new study. The new findings are a compelling argument that a major extraterrestrial impact occurred then," he notes.

Whenever a comet strikes Earth’s atmosphere, it leaves behind a fingerprint of ammonium, the researchers propose. Immense heat and pressure in the shock wave spark the creation of ammonia, or NH3, from nitrogen in the air and hydrogen in the comet. Some of the ammonium, or NH4+, ions generated during subsequent reactions fall back to Earth in snow and are preserved in ice cores, where they linger as signs of the cataclysmic event.

http://www.barry.warmkessel.com/4related.html

So, what does anyone think?

[The Puzzler]

Then there's the Kaali meteor impact, which they are unsure about datewise but could be possibly c. 2000BC.

The reflections on the Kaali meteorite

in ancient legends

The fall of the giant meteorite was certainly a tragic event, probably accompanied by extensive demolition, fires and even human victims. Falling of heavenly fire, explosion, clouds of dust and smoke, and the landscape changed beyond recognition must have caused fright and horror and awe among the surviving inhabitants. It is not known, how long the place maintained the taboo, but it is most likely that such a special place became a sacrificial site already before the settlement was established on its bank. The 6 m thick sediments at the bottom of the main crater may contain offerings. Hitherto the investigations have been stopped by a deposit of oak trunks, up to 1 m in diameter, at the depth of 4 m. Relying upon the dendrochronological data, these trees grew at the turn of the 1st and the 2nd millennia. The researchers have not yet been able to reach the deeper layers, which probably contain offerings. Still, the sacrificial water bodies in the neighbouring and Nordic countries allow to expect worthy results.

Lennart Meri has analysed the possible reflections of the Kaali catastrophe in human recollections in his books "Hõbevalge" and "Hõbevalgem", connecting Saaremaa with the mythical Thule, supposedly visited by the Greek traveller Pytheas in 325 BC, and also with the place of worship of the Germanic goddess of land, Nerthus, described by Tacitus. Besides the written sources, the falling of the Kaali meteorite was indubitably reflected in the folklore and mythology of several peoples. The falling of Sun from the sky, which, depending of the location of the observer, could occur altogether in the wrong quarter of the horizon, the terrible crash, the all-demolishing impactwave, the cloud of dust and forest fires indubitably left a deep impression in the people of that time. Several verses of the Finnish epic "Kalevala", the ancient Germanic "Older Edda" as well as in the folklore of Estonia and the neighbouring peoples indicate that impression.

http://muinas.struktuur.ee/projektid/ecp/kaali/en/html/legends.html

Seems the people of Finland saw the event occur:

Scholars maintain that the event figured prominently in regional mythology. It was, and still is, considered a sacred lake. There is archaeological evidence that it may well have been a place of ritual sacrifice. At some point during the early Iron Age, the lake was surrounded by a stone wall measuring 470 meters in length, with a median width of about 2.5 meters and an average height of 2.0 meters.[citation needed]

Finnish mythology has stories that may originate with the formation of Kaali. One of them is in runes 47, 48 and 49 of the Kalevala epic: Louhi, the evil wizard, steals the Sun and fire from people, causing total darkness. Ukko, the god of the sky, orders a new Sun to be made from a spark. The virgin of the air starts to make a new Sun, but the spark drops from the sky and hits the ground. This spark goes to an "Aluen" or "Kalevan"[3] lake and causes its water to rise. Finnish heroes see the ball of fire falling somewhere "behind the Neva river" (the direction of Estonia from Karelia). The heroes head that direction to seek fire, and they finally gather flames from a forest fire.

According to a theory first proposed by Lennart Meri, it is possible that Saaremaa was the legendary Thule island, first mentioned by ancient Greek geographer Pytheas, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire") and the folklore of Estonia, which depicts the birth of the crater lake in Kaali. Kaali was considered the place where "The sun went to rest."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaali_crater

The virgin of the air mentioned would be Ilmater, daughter of Ukko.

The ancient Greek myth about Phaeton, the son of Sun, who, driving the solar chariot, lost the power over the horses and tumbled into the mysterious river of Eridanos, also leads one's thoughts to the Kaali catastrophe.

Especially since the Heliades tears were amber, it particularly puts this myth into the Nordic realm, not Greek. I think it would be logical to think when the meteor hit people moved out, maybe even South and arrived in Greece, bringing their ancient Nordic stories with them.

At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html

That the CELTS OF THE WEST knew best. Again indicating this is anything but a true Greek myth story. It's a reference to the Kaali event imo.

It leads one to wonder why the Celts knew it best when it was a Nordic event. It's possible the Celts were actually once Finnish people, who also had it recorded later in the Kalevala. The Celts are always recorded with yellow hair, like a Nordic trait. Maybe some of the people moved out once the meteor hit and moved South becoming the Celts at a later time, since they are only recorded as being around from Hallstatt area time frame.

The earliest archaeological culture commonly accepted as Celtic, or rather Proto-Celtic, was the central European Hallstatt culture (c. 800-450 BC), named for the rich grave finds in Hallstatt, Austria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

There is a clue to this idea. The Gundstrup Cauldron with distincly Celtic looking images being found in Denmark, and obviously made for them and the woman on it has the same horned helmet they have actually found, with the round knobs on top of the horns. Known mainly from the Nordic countries.

The first time Celts are mentioned in 517BC, they are not in Austria or even any of Middle Europe but at Marseille, Southern France.

The first recorded use of the word Celts (Κελτοί) to refer to an ethnic group was by Hecataeus of Miletus, the Greek geographer, in 517 BC,[8] when writing about a people living near "Massilia" (Marseille).

Celts of the West, Marseilles is quite West of Greece and Herodotus has them far West also but he seems to refer to them as being even furthur West, as does Pausanius...

Pausanias in the 2nd century BC says that the Gauls "originally called Celts", "live on the remotest region of Europe on the coast of an enormous tidal sea".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

The Gauls were originally called Celts, they are not different from each other - the Gauls descended out of the Celts.

Here we can see how the old Celtic myth of Phaethon falling into a river was transferred to the Po Valley, which is where the Greeks knew the Celts as being.

In 391 BC Celts "who had their homes beyond the Alps streamed through the passes in great strength and seized the territory that lay between the Appennine mountains and the Alps" according to Diodorus Siculus. The Po Valley and the rest of northern Italy (known to the Romans as Cisalpine Gaul) was inhabited by Celtic-speakers who founded cities such as Milan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

So, basically my quest here is to identify if the Celts may have actually descended down from Estonia and Finland after the Kaali impact on Saaremar.

There's another interesting connection in this respect, I'm not sure if anyone picked up on it above...

connecting Saaremaa with the mythical Thule, supposedly visited by the Greek traveller Pytheas in 325 BC, and also with the place of worship of the Germanic goddess of land, Nerthus, described by Tacitus.

The Germanic Goddess of land, Nerthus and the description given of her ritual cult on her wagon by Tacitus being at Saaremaa - a Celtic Goddess on Saaremaa, how about that?

[The Puzzler]

Now I find a possible meteor site in Germany itself. The Lake Chiemsee.

A more exact dating of the Chiemgau meteorite impact in Bavaria, southeast Germany, that produced

a large strewn field of more than 80 craters sized between a few meters and several hundred

meters, may provide the indispensable fundament for evaluating its cultural implications and thus

enable an extraordinary case study. A straightforward answer has not yet been provided due to e.g.

scarce existence of diagnostic material, lack of specialised micromorphologists, absence of absolute

dating data etc. Here we report on a first OSL dating applied to a catastrophic impact layer that features

both impact ejecta and tsunami characteristics attributed to proposed falls of projectiles into

Lake Chiemsee in the impact event. The OSL dating was conducted on a quartzite cobble and four

sediment samples collected from an excavated archaeological stratigraphy at Lake Chiemsee that

comprised also the impact layer.

http://www.rhodes.aegean.gr/maa_journal/3_Liritzis%20et%20al.pdf

It would be in the exact direction the incoming meteor would have hit Saaremaa, so Germany may have also felt the impact of smaller pieces of broken up meteor or comet.

There is possibility that the Kaali impact dates to around 1200-700BC, which is in line with this new German find. Both areas may have been hit by the incoming projectiles. It almost negates my original thought in the post above but I don't think it needs to.

Reported ages fall around the beginning of 2nd millennium BC

The date given here seems too late. 465 - 200BC but the paper gives a date of early 2nd millenium.

One or two of us probably wonder why the Asterix comics constantly refer to the Gauls worrying about the sky falling on their heads. German and Austrian geologists and archaeologists researching the upmarket Chiemsee (Chiem lake) region measuring approximately 58 by 27 Kilometers between Munich and Salzburg in Austria may have the answer to this question and more. Most of this is based on a largely verifiable comet impact around between 465 and 200 BCE.

Before this time, the Celts were widely networked culturally and commercially all around Europe while their spirituality was very much nature oriented. After this fateful event, this completely changed.

Geologically, the cosmic impact is easy to prove. The area in Southern Bavaria is pockmarked with a multitude of impact craters that have by now often have become lakes. The region also has a layer of exotic metal and mineral deposits that would not normally occur. Physicists calculate that the small comet measuring about 1 km in diameter violently broke up at high altitude, perhaps 50 Km in the atmosphere, and the showered the area underneath with relatively large fragments that would have churned up the country side with a force of about 80 one Megaton hydrogen bombs. To add insult to injury, remaining methane fumes would have suffocated many survivors of the impacts and resulting fire storms. Please note, the emphasis here is on many, not all, as witnesses were required to turn the event into legend.

The archaeology is also fairly self explanatory as the artefacts found in southern Bavaria all date to before the middle of the 5th century BCE and new artefacts of any significance don't emerge until about 1 to 2 centuries later. Metal artefacts from near impact points show unusual burning or discoloration marks and can not be attributed to the usual burial offerings due to their haphazard placements. The impact on the survivors and other Celtic tribes is more subtle as there are no written records, just deeds and artefacts.

Roman historians, such as Pliny the Elder, a few centuries later, do mention the event, but not in a first hand manner. The fleeing survivors were probably not greeted by their neighbours with open arms. Historians note increasingly bellicose behaviour among all Celts, as some food shortages probably occurred. Within a couple of decades marauding Gaulish tribes, a subdivision of Celts, went on rampages all over Europe and as far as Turkey. In 398 BCE, they even sacked Rome, an injury that was not forgotten.

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146413288

I think I'll start a comet thread to continue this idea as it's taking me off the Saami track, which was really about the possible impact at the end of the ice age.

Edited October 29, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

No, I won't bother, I'll just keep adding here because in the end it IS relative the place of the Saami's in the world, it could be them who created the original mythology about it. Plus I can't be bothered readdressing it for those who haven't been already following what I've been on about here and also, since I'm the only one in this thread anyway, except for cormac giving me haplogroup education, who is really bothered anyway?

I think it's a real possibilty that the Finnish are part of the Celts, which could include the Saami, as their 'priests' - who knew ancient magic and shamanic lore of augury.

I wasn't sure at first but the more I think about the more it seems logical - the labyrinths of Gotland and Scandinavia found in the Bronze Age make an appearance in Celtic lore, not to mention Nerthus, who is said above to be possibly on Saaremaa.

The Etruscans also practiced this unusual kind of divination and said their lore was given to them by a childlike figure who came from the Earth. It was not native to them, they were given instructions how to practice it. If the OLB has any glimmer of truth, it also says the Celts were once part of a larger group, the whole Fryans, which included all the way to the Eastern Baltic.

I'd be fairly sure the Kaali impact had an effect on Gotland, which could have even started a migration out of there, south into Germany.

The Finns have the story of it in their Kalevala, the only story of this type I know, I don't know any Celtic stories that have a description of a cometary impact, so it could be possible the story the Celts know is the story the Finnish knew.

The impact in Germany in the early 2nd millenium and the impact in Saaremaa could be from the same time as I said, between 1200BC and 650BC.

So, even if you were in Germany as a Celt you would have seen an impact there too, as I said it kinda negates them having to have been in Estonia/Finland.

The Bavarians emerged in a region north of the Alps, originally inhabited by the Gauls,

So, the Celts were also right where this impact would have hit in Bavaria - the whole of Northern Europe from Estonia to Germany would have known about this impact.

The problem with Phaethon hitting in Germany is their is no amber to become tears, whereas at Saaremaa, the amber is right there, so this is why it seems unlikely it was actually the German impact that was the Phaethon myth, secondly, only the Kaali impact is mentioned in the Kalevala in a similar description to the Phaethon myth.

If Nerthus' cult was indeed on Saaremaa, it really gives a connection that the German/Celts were connected as one people. The whole impact as one, rather than 2 seperate events, could reconcile it - Celts in both Germany and Western Estonia (Saaremaa) had the same memory.

The falling of Sun from the sky, which, depending of the location of the observer, could occur altogether in the wrong quarter of the horizon, the terrible crash, the all-demolishing impactwave, the cloud of dust and forest fires indubitably left a deep impression in the people of that time. Several verses of the Finnish epic "Kalevala", the ancient Germanic "Older Edda" as well as in the folklore of Estonia and the neighbouring peoples indicate that impression.

http://muinas.struktuur.ee/projektid/ecp/kaali/en/html/legends.html

Edited October 29, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

So, can we figure out when the fall of Phaethon was?

According to Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, "...in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pha%C3%ABton

Crotopus is usually given as a mythical King but he is in existance in Eusebius Chronicle, which I forget how interesting it is, until now, I read this years ago, I think I'll peruse it all again later. Note also just prior to Crotopus' reign, Moses is mentioned as leading the Hebrews out of Egypt. It is possible, therefore that the change in the conditions mentioned in the Bible, in Egypt is related to the Phaethon event. Later on teh Phaethon event is mentioned as occurring when fires are in Ethiopia, so again, it could have been something upstream of the Nile that caused the changes downstream in the Nile.

The kings of the Argives

Inachus, for 50 years.

The country was called Inachia, after this Inachus. He began to rule the Argives at the time of Thurimachus, who was the seventh king of the Sicyonians.

Phoroneus, for 60 years.

In his reign, Ogygus founded Eleusis.

Apis, for 35 years.

The country was then called Apia, after this Apis. During his reign, Joseph governed the Egyptians, as recorded by the Hebrews.

Argus, the son of Zeus and Niobe, for 70 years.

The name of the country was changed to Argeia, after this Argus.

Criasus, for 54 years.

Phorbas, for 35 years.

During his reign, Cecrops Diphyes became king of the Athenians.

[p179] Triopas, for 46 years.

During his reign, Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt.

Crotopus, for 21 years.

Sthenelus, for 11 years.

In all, these kings reigned for 382 years.

Danaus drove out Sthenelus, and ruled Argos, as did his descendants after him. The succession of kings, and their dates, are as follows.

Danaus, for 50 years.

Lynceus, for 41 years.

Abas, for 23 years.

Proetus, for 17 years.

Acrisius, for 31 years.

In all, there were rulers of Argos for a period of 544 years, until the end of Danaidae.

After Acrisius, the Argives began to be ruled from Mycenae, when the descendants of Pelops took over the kingdom, in the time of Eurystheus the son of Sthenelus. Pelops was the first ruler of the Peloponnese, and he organised the Olympic games.

After Acrisius, when the Argives began to be ruled from Mycenae:

Eurystheus was king for 45 years.

http://www.attalus.org/translate/eusebius1.html#177

Taking into consideration that Pelops organised the first Olympic Games - The most widely accepted date for the inception of the Ancient Olympics is 776 BC; this is based on inscriptions, found at Olympia, of the winners of a footrace held every four years starting in 776 BC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games

So, if we have Eurystheus in 776BC and backtrack 228 years allowing for half of Crotopus' reign - to Crotopus it takes us to around 1004BC.

Phaethon should, accordingly, by Greek timeframe standards have occurred around 1000BC. Just prior to this is Moses.

Cecrops Diphyes, for 50 years.

In his reign lived Prometheus, Epimetheus and Atlas. He started to rule the Athenians in the time of Triopas, the seventh king of the Argives, and Marathonius, the thirteenth king of Sicyon.

At this time, Moses was prominent amongst the Hebrews, as we will show in due course.

Also in his reign, the flood of Deucalion is said to have engulfed Thessaly, just as fire devastated the land of Ethiopia in the time of Phaethon.

Comparable with other list showing Tropias in Moses timeframe, who is actually the King just before Crotopus - so the flood of Thessaly/Deucalion occurs in Tropias reign, just after in Crotopus reign, all in the time of Moses, you get the Phaethon event, at which time fire cooks Ethiopia.

This is included in the myth, that the heat was so intense from Phaethon it burned the faces of the Ethiopians black, it doesn't have to mean the Phaethon (meteor) landed there - just that that Ethiopia gets extremely hot, which again, could co-incide with the weather changes in Egypt mentioned in the Bible.

So, what? Were their faces white before this time?

However, the Roman historian Pliny the Elder (79 CE) uses "Aethiopia" exclusively for Sub-Saharan Africa, expressly stating that the inhabitants of the Upper Nile from Elephantine as far as Meroe in his day were not from Aethiopia, but were "Arabs".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ethiopia

Thinking on this some more - Strabo mentions the Nubians as a great race west of the Nile. They came originally from Kordofan, whence they emigrated two thousand years ago. They have rejected the name Nubas as it has become synonymous with slave. They call themselves Barabra, their ancient race name.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/we/we05.htm

Fabulous article, I'd like to copy/paste the whole thing, but I won't. Deserves a thread of it's own, I weep inside when I see the terrible state of Ethiopia now, all famine and dust, left to rot - our cradle of civilisation, a nation of ancient, proud, noble people no more.

I think this word sounds like Berber, not only that, Herodotus has Ethiopians in the West of Africa, so maybe they are also the Berbers.

I'll stop there on this post and my apologies for going somewhat off topic but in my threads, nothing is off-topic, it all comes back around in the end....

[GGG guy]

I definitely need to go back and read some of this blog again, but I want to add Bjarmaland in upper Norway, and their Saami association. I still read this as Bjarm to be Burjan, or Siberian Buryan. Buryans lived next to the Yakuts by the Amur River, then were said to migrate towards Lake Baikal.

I believe my R1a1 yDNA can allow the Siberian-Iberian connection. Also the Uyghur of Central Asia. I'll attach a brief overview and a map of Bjarmaland. Note the City called Berga.

Bjarmaland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My GGG concept of a Siberian earliest root to the Buryan tribe seems to have some merit if the name of Bjarmaland indeed is Iberian and of Burjan tribe, akin to Buryan.

If the Nordic god Buri was these peoples coming to this region, I've estimated 2-3,000 BC, and Buri's son Odin I have a reference to Troy - I estimate at 1200 BC. In my GGG theory, Hyperboreans are Buryan/Burjan tribe, and Bor is Buri's son likewise.

Herein, is perhaps a way to tie a regional name Bjarm, to Siberia, the Saami language, their religion, and other details, and should I mention DNA.

A lot of the details herein do seem to fit within my specific tribe which is equally compelling.

I want to back review the blog and maybe add more yet. I want to raise visibility of my thinking on this region.

I'll add the Borean Language model, and its global language map.

Borean languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ironically, I could perhaps define the name they selected for their theory, and use this one name to confirm their global umbrella of languages therein. To mean they model from all languages and words, and I use one name, as is in my Grand Global Genome (GGG) tribal name Buryan migration model. There are other language models within this wiki site.

I hope the Bjarnaland offers a form of ground truth to this Saami peoples ethos. Let me know what you think on these factors. I'm having a tough go on Bjarmaland but believe I can make the case for this name and people.

I saw in the news that the planet has 7 billion people now, and I feel damn lonely with my theory. Certainly, somebody else must know this stuff. Is this a fair statementI noted you were getting thinned down on this blog so here is more synergy. I'm very interested in this blog, GGG guy.

[cormac mac airt]

I believe my R1a1 yDNA can allow the Siberian-Iberian connection.

Not really, since R1a is north European in scope while R1b is southern, which includes Iberia. An example in Iberia would be R1b1a2a1a1b.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Even with my extremely limited knowledge of haplogroups, I don't know how it gives the Iberian connection.

But anyway, to be honest alot of what you say seems to go over my head GGG, it's very indepth and your posts are very long, it's kinda hard to know what to comment about. I want to be interested but I can't seem to grasp much because it's too indepth, each post that is and I don't know your original aim in what you are trying to find, I'd be able to help more if you could just give a quick run down on what I might be able to look for...

Did you ever notice the word Siberian and Iberian are nearly the same and have Berian in them, which sounds like Buryan...?

Maybe both those words once derived from this name. Just stabbing in the dark really.

Considering Siberia is in the realm of the Boreans, it seems to me it might have been Si-borea

Si-buryans.

i-buryans

[The Puzzler]

Most published discussions of R1a origins are actually about the origins of the R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) sub-clade, which is both numerically dominant, and the most studied part of R1a. Data so far collected indicates that there two widely separated areas of high frequency, one in South Asia, around Indo-Gangetic Plain, and the other in Eastern Europe, around Poland and Ukraine. The historical and prehistoric possible reasons for this are the subject of on-going discussion and attention amongst population geneticists and genetic genealogists, and are considered to be of potential interest to linguists and archaeologists also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)

Rather interesting and apparently open to discussion.

[The Puzzler]

When I was browsing Google Earth once it never escaped me there lies a humungous underwater trench going through the Arctic Circle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litke_Deep

It's the 20th largest undersea trench in the world.

If you have Google Earth, check it out, massive, right through the Arctic Circle. Litke Deep, funny name, I haven't checked it out but it could easy say - lit (Light) ke (Female spirit)

Well, it made me wonder about a giant earthquake there, that might have started breaking up the ice and rumbled right through, and if you can look at it on Google Earth notice the trench goes right down parallel with the East Coast of Norway.

This imo if it was near the top of Doggerland would have had an effect, enough to cause the massive landslides and make the ground rumble for a few thousand years even as ice slipped, melted and ran off to the sea, as the tilt of the land itself changed, one side went down, you went up.

Why is there no real ice cap in the Arctic, it's a massive ocean, with a massive trench that once was covered in ice, a whole area people may have been able to walk over, it would have been easy to get to America or any land in that whole Northern Arctic Circle by walking over the ice. The weather may have been very unusual, maybe warm even, under the North Pole at true North, where the magnet always points, guiding us North all the time toward the Light. Maybe they saw the light - as far North as it went.

I don't think it's out of the question since they always talk about these massive ice sheets, they must have covered the whole North Pole area until they started breaking up, you'd find no trace now of anything that was there, with changes to the atmosphere and Vega a second Sun above them, what an amazing marvel it would have been, the Aurora Borealis, an electric God of the nylof curtain. I think it's probably the time of 'Creation' as such, when God made 'man', not Paleolithic homo sapiens, but Man, a person who looked and saw, noticed and recorded, spoke and remembered, passed on the knowledge and started to think about what had happened and try to make some kind of sense of the amazing world altering changes around them.

Edited October 31, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Silly me, I said East Coast when I obviously meant West Coast, of Norway that is.

[The Puzzler]

In Greek mythology the Hyperboreans (Ancient Greek: Ὑπερβόρε(ι)οι, pronounced [hyperbóre(ː)ɔi̯]; Latin: Hyperborei) were a mythical people who lived far to the north of Thrace. The Greeks thought that Boreas, the North Wind,[1] lived in Thrace, and that therefore Hyperborea was an unspecified region in the northern lands that lay beyond the north wind. Their land, called Hyperborea or Hyperboria — "beyond the Boreas" — was perfect, with the sun shining twenty-four hours a day, which - if true - suggests a possible location within the Arctic Circle.

We all know that Hyperborea may very well have been in the Arctic Circle.

Never the Muse is absent

from their ways: lyres clash and flutes cry

and everywhere maiden choruses whirling.

Neither disease nor bitter old age is mixed

in their sacred blood; far from labor and battle they live.

Pindar, Tenth Pythian Ode; translated by Richmond Lattimore.

Reaching such exotic lands is never easy; Pindar cautioned:

neither by ship nor on foot would you find

the marvellous road to the assembly of the Hyperboreans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperborea

Plato (Charmides, 158C) regarded Abaris (the Hyperborean) as a physician from the far north,

Heracles sought the golden-antlered hind of Artemis in Hyperborea. As the reindeer is the only deer species of which females bear antlers, this would suggest an arctic or subarctic region.

I mentioned before about the female Hind being a reindeer.

I'd say this story is some kind of telling of astrological motion but the interesting thing is it places Artemis in the area of Hyperborea. As was Apollo.

They were twins from the North, the children of Light, Leto.

This powerful new force of a mother and her twins was here.

[GGG guy]

I'm attempting to say the the Buryan tribe of Siberia circumnavigated the globe, and that my personal surname as Bohemian-American Burian, post Columbus (a Ligurian with the god Kabeiros), was the last event of this across the Ocean to America, or what we claim to be the discovery of America. A Sibero-Paleoindian certainly occurred before this, and I'm claiming a Buryan derived tribal name may be specific enough to allow tracking to a specific American Indian tribe, thereby having evidence of this tribal "name" to show this event actually occurred - that is proof.

To circumnavigate, one should be able to show both eastward, and westward directions from some earliest - I'll call base position on the planet - as the tribes name, and regional start location. In theory, this tribal name would spread their culture, so all locational stepping stone locations should be conformal as equivalent to that end.

I think Bjarmaland can be of Burjan, or Buryan Siberian roots, and believe I can assimilated many factors to this region and show they can be of Siberian Buryan people long ago.

If I can show Siberia connects to Spain or England by way of this same Buryan home base in Siberia, then all that remains is connecting this name to an American Indian group with certainty, to show they originate from this same tribe.

Because I believe this name originates in Siberia, I believe I can trace it across Central Asia, India, Russia, Central Europe, and Western Europe.

In light of American Indians, there are Aztecs, Mayans, and others. I've found that this tribal name certainly has its presence in many locations west of Siberia, in in many mythologies, languages, and some very specific locations I've brought up in the blogs. I have to express these data points so I can demonstrate this west migration is real, and attempt to time line the events to the locations you have as a Buryan tribe match, for whatever the base reason is for selecting the location.

I would be simple enough for me to say Siberia, the Bering Sea, Iberian, Tiberian Hebrew language, and Iberian Spain are the same people, The Buryan tribe. But who would believe me, allowing for Strabo's reference as such. At some point in time I realized this name has escaped under the radar - and I see it as rather exclusive in very ancient times because of Siberia, and India. I have to convince my self I'm of this ethos and became a Bohemian, and I believe I can make this case, or, I have a lot of evidence suggesting my root source at Lake Baikal is workable.

That being said, I think whats most amazing is that my history seems vacated from the common history concerning evolution of modern humans from cave men, and a Siberian Buryan tribal name. Ironically, the artifacts at Buret and Malta by Lake Baikal carbon date to 22-25,000 BC and are said to be of the African "Grimaldi Venus" iconic goddess variety, and also a said lunar pendant calendar one could wear. American Indians would say "many moons have passed..." similar to this same thinking of lunar time marker shown as spirals on the pendant, or lunar cycles.

Important is that I believe they are also the Hyperboreans and can make the case. This will help on the Siberia westward part. I want to get back to the American Indians, but the Central Asian, and India parts lead to Asia Minor, and these histories seem a bit scrambled, in a chaotic state. This tribal name begins to show its migrations and locations if one is very careful in assembling their basic time line.

It also fits many mythologies, the Bible, the Quran, and various sagas such as Jason and the Argonauts, and the Argo built by the Boreads.

I'm attempting to allow all bloggers to understand what I believe this tribal name means, and where it can be found on the globe, and why I believe they are there, hopefully at an accurate date, and should contain some ground truth as to being a real verification of the tribes movements, and eras involved. I think I'm able to do this to suggest my concept may have merit. That is to allow others to try this out in any areas of interest, such as Saami.

Bjarmaland is a sticker in my foot now. But it can demonstrate that perhaps I may be correct on this name, and perhaps show these people may be of a much earlier Siberian based Buryan tribe people, or even Yakuts perhaps.

I've contemplated this theory for many years, and I'm stingy to two base spellings as Buryan, or Burjan, which I believe will allow for various others. I very careful about inaccuracies in my time line for a "very specific" tribe name.

I also think the DNA folks will have to flex a bit. Afterall, the Hyperboreans can trace to Siberia, can be a wolf tribe, so my better wisdom tells me they will ultimately "catch up" perhaps. The Hyperborean part is a "big deal" in my analysis as Buryan roots - if true. I believe my DNA can satisfy this as Hyperborean north R1a yDNA, However, Veria (Berea) in Macedonia is also of these same people, and I believe I can get them to Bohemia, or me, also a west Bohemian.

The Bavarians in the Swiss Alps is correct from my reading as of Bohemian (Nobels really), but the name Bavaria was also Bayern, and I believe I can state the Count Burjan (Burian) of Guttenstein in Austria may be the conveyance for Buryan (Burjan) to Bayern, then to Bavaria later. Their Coat of Arms has a blue and white checker board pattern, as does Bari (Barion, Barium) Italy, (of Liburnians I think, also home base for St. Nicholas - the gift giver), and also in the Netherlands (Beierjnland, and city Buren). Norway - Bergen - where they celebrate the Boreas festival?

What should a poor man do? I do appreciate the imputs and I'm having a rather rough go at the Northen territories, but do think I'm on the proper path for my key tribe name, and my global distribution and evolution. I want to make my approximation available to allow others to consider its relevance. My theory is key to just this very specific name, as a tribal name. I can't just make all of this up either.

So you see, what's in a name? Thanks for the question. GGG guy.