The Saami of Lapland Their Place in the World

[The Puzzler]

The only thing this is suggestive of is that the Sami have an Asian component to their genome which is something we already know, since they moved into the area they live in now mixing with more native peoples. This is not exactly news. Nor does it support the contention, from your previous quote, that Europeans have Finnish genes but Finns don't have European genes.

cormac

I said: "but you can see Finns, or in this case Saami, have the haplogroups in them that are in other Europeans, but the European haplogroups do not include some of the Sami ones."

But I'll find one with specifically Finns rather than Saami then.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/admixture-analysis-with-dodecad.html

You'll have to open the link and enlarge the picture to see it better.

Edited April 25, 2012 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

I said: "but you can see Finns, or in this case Saami, have the haplogroups in them that are in other Europeans, but the European haplogroups do not include some of the Sami ones."

But I'll find one with specifically Finns rather than Saami then.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/admixture-analysis-with-dodecad.html

You'll have to open the link and enlarge the picture to see it better.

Which only suggests that Finns share more of an affinity with more northerly represented groups such as Lithuanians and Belorussians, which is to be expected. These two graphs also suggest that the Finns are more indigenous to the north than the Sami, something which is also rather obvious IMO.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Which only suggests that Finns share more of an affinity with more northerly represented groups such as Lithuanians and Belorussians, which is to be expected. These two graphs also suggest that the Finns are more indigenous to the north than the Sami, something which is also rather obvious IMO.

cormac

Yes, I'll go along with that.

The mutations that define the subclade N1c1 are M178 and P298. This is the most frequent subclade of haplogroup N M231.

Haplogroup N1c1 is approximately 10 000 years old and has higher average frequency in Northern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among

finns and approximately 40% among latvians and lithuanians.

N1c1 haplogroup has Southern Siberian origin, but it's very ancient migration to Europe (mostly around the Baltic Sea) and Volga region from Siberia and the Urals.

Haplogroup N (Y-DNA)

N is found among Uralic speakers, from Finland to Siberia, and at minor frequencies as far as Korea and Japan. In Europe, haplogroup N is only found at high frequencies among modern Finns (58%), Lithuanians (42%), Latvians (38%), Estonians (34%) and northern Russians.

Haplogroup N is believed to have originated in Southeast Asia approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, but the N1c1 subclade found in Europe likely arose in Southern Siberia circa 10,000 years ago, and spread to North-East Europe 6,000 years ago.

Haplogroup N1c1 is associated with the Comb Ceramic culture (4200-2000 BCE), which evolved into Finnic and pre-Baltic people.The Indo-European Corded Ware culture (3200-1800 BCE) progressively took over the Baltic region and southern Finland from 2,500 BCE. The merger of the two gave rise to the hybrid Kiukainen culture (2300-1500 BCE). Modern Baltic people have a roughly equal proportion of haplogroup N1c1 and R1a, resulting from this merger of pre-Uralic and pre-Slavic cultures.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/n1c1/default.aspx?section=results

If they entered c. 4200BC.

This is worded slightly different:

N is found among Uralic speakers, from Finland to Siberia, and at minor frequencies as far as Korea and Japan. In Europe, haplogroup N is only found at high frequencies among modern Finns (58%), Lithuanians (42%), Latvians (38%), Estonians (34%) and northern Russians.

Haplogroup N is believed to have originated in Southeast Asia approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, but the N1c1 subclade found in Europe likely arose in Southern Siberia circa 12,000 years ago, and spread to North-East Europe 10,000 years ago.

Haplogroup N1c1 is associated with the Kunda culture (8000-5000 BCE) and the Comb Ceramic culture (4200-2000 BCE), which evolved into Finnic and pre-Baltic people.The Indo-European Corded Ware culture (3200-1800 BCE) progressively took over the Baltic region and southern Finland from 2,500 BCE. The merger of the two gave rise to the hybrid Kiukainen culture (2300-1500 BCE). Modern Baltic people have a roughly equal proportion of haplogroup N1c1 and R1a, resulting from this merger of Uralic and Slavic cultures.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#N

So, it seems N1c1 was possibly in Europe as early as 8000BC. The Comb Ceramic Culture was just another later culture, developed out of the same Uralic people imo.

I'm not really trying to prove anything, just trying to understand it in better terms than A+B=C - I like to know the whole story, all the movements of who went where.

[The Puzzler]

If the Kunda Culture was an N1c1 people, it seems to me they would have been the earliest people in Finland, so the Uralic people may have been indigenous to the area since then. Looking at the charts there is a definite East West divide. They may not have inhabited the Western areas of Scandinavia as the I1's were there already.

The Ertebolle Culture imo were pre I1 lines as this says.

Haplogroup I1 (formerly I1a) is the most common I subclade. It is found mostly in Scandinavia and Northern Germany, where it can represent over 35% of the population. Associated with the Norse ethnicity, it is found in all places invaded by the ancient Germanic tribes and the Vikings.

During the Neolithic period, pre-I1 and I1 people were part of the sucessive Ertebølle culture (5300-3950 BCE) and Funnelbeaker culture (4000-2700 BCE). The Corded Ware period (3200-1800 BCE) marks the arrival of the Indo-European R1a people from the Ukrainian steppes.

I1 is identified by at least 15 unique mutations, which indicates that this lineage has been isolated for a long period of time, or experienced a serious population bottleneck. Although the first mutation splitting I1 away from I2 may have arisen as long as 20,000 years ago, people belonging to this haplogroup all descend from a single man who lived betweeb 10,000 and 5,000 years ago. This corresponds to the arrival of the Indo-European, suggesting that a high percentage of the indigenous I1 men could possibly have been killed by the new immigrants.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#N

In the OLB thread I discovered that skat means lap (or coat tails) - in English, it's like skirt or border, skirt the edge, skirting boards - this seems a very appropriate name for not only Scythians but Saami as Lapps as well, these people lived on the borders, of the world, or known world.

When I looked up Ukraine, blow me down...The traditional view (mostly influenced by Russian and Polish historiography[16]) on the etymology of Ukraine is that it came from the old Slavic term ukraina which meant "border region" or "frontier"[17] and thus corresponded to the Western term march.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

Border region, same meaning as what I was trying to convey for the name of Lapland or Scythians. Not that I'm implying any connection there, just saying the definition of the word use was co-incidently how I was trying to explain lap as border land.

Sweden, Denmark and Norway might hold the I1 that was there prior to the arrival of N1c1 or R1a in the areas. I1 imo would be the haplogroup of the people of Doggerland area. There was also a more south east European I2 people.

Like this:

Haplogroup I2 is thought to represent the direct patrilineal descendants of Paleolithic Western, Central and Southeastern Europeans, roughly from Northern Spain to the Carpathians, and from the British Isles to the Balkans. Haplogroup I2 is not the only survivor of Paleolithic Europe: haplogroup I1 occupied Northern Europe (Scandinavia and the shores of the Baltic Sea), haplogroup N1c1 that ranged from eastern Finland and the Baltic countries to Siberia, R1a that was found in the rest of Northeast Europe, and E1b1b which probably made up most of the population of Mediterranean Europe.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Edited April 25, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The I2a2 people were the megalith builders.

I2a2 (S33/M436/P214, P216/S30, P217/S23, P218/S32, L35/S150, L37/S153, L181) was known as I1c until 2005 and I2b until 2010. It is associated with the pre Celto-Germanic people of North-Western Europe, such as the megaliths builders (5000-1200 BCE). The wide variety of STR markers within I2b could make it as much as 13,000 years old.

I2a2 is found in all Western Europe, but apparently survived better the Indo-European invasions (=> see R1b) in northern Germany, and was reintroduced by the Germanic invasions during the late Roman period. Nowadays, I2a2 peaks in central and northern Germany (10-20%), the Benelux (10-15%) as well as in northern Sweden. It is also found in 3 to 10% of the inhabitants of Denmark, East England, and Northern France. It is rare in Norway, which concords with the fact that it hasn't been invaded by people from northern Germany.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Pre-Celto-Germanic people - so this is not Germanic people - but survived better in Northern Germany and reintroduced by the Germans...

How does that work? Did pre-Germanic people of I2a2 who built the megaliths become Germanic types later? When they mixed with R1b incomers - of a Celtic type?

Edited April 25, 2012 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

Yes, I'll go along with that.

The mutations that define the subclade N1c1 are M178 and P298. This is the most frequent subclade of haplogroup N M231.

Haplogroup N1c1 is approximately 10 000 years old and has higher average frequency in Northern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among

finns and approximately 40% among latvians and lithuanians.

N1c1 haplogroup has Southern Siberian origin, but it's very ancient migration to Europe (mostly around the Baltic Sea) and Volga region from Siberia and the Urals.

Haplogroup N (Y-DNA)

N is found among Uralic speakers, from Finland to Siberia, and at minor frequencies as far as Korea and Japan. In Europe, haplogroup N is only found at high frequencies among modern Finns (58%), Lithuanians (42%), Latvians (38%), Estonians (34%) and northern Russians.

Haplogroup N is believed to have originated in Southeast Asia approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, but the N1c1 subclade found in Europe likely arose in Southern Siberia circa 10,000 years ago, and spread to North-East Europe 6,000 years ago.

Haplogroup N1c1 is associated with the Comb Ceramic culture (4200-2000 BCE), which evolved into Finnic and pre-Baltic people.The Indo-European Corded Ware culture (3200-1800 BCE) progressively took over the Baltic region and southern Finland from 2,500 BCE. The merger of the two gave rise to the hybrid Kiukainen culture (2300-1500 BCE). Modern Baltic people have a roughly equal proportion of haplogroup N1c1 and R1a, resulting from this merger of pre-Uralic and pre-Slavic cultures.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/n1c1/default.aspx?section=results

If they entered c. 4200BC.

This is worded slightly different:

N is found among Uralic speakers, from Finland to Siberia, and at minor frequencies as far as Korea and Japan. In Europe, haplogroup N is only found at high frequencies among modern Finns (58%), Lithuanians (42%), Latvians (38%), Estonians (34%) and northern Russians.

Haplogroup N is believed to have originated in Southeast Asia approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, but the N1c1 subclade found in Europe likely arose in Southern Siberia circa 12,000 years ago, and spread to North-East Europe 10,000 years ago.

Haplogroup N1c1 is associated with the Kunda culture (8000-5000 BCE) and the Comb Ceramic culture (4200-2000 BCE), which evolved into Finnic and pre-Baltic people.The Indo-European Corded Ware culture (3200-1800 BCE) progressively took over the Baltic region and southern Finland from 2,500 BCE. The merger of the two gave rise to the hybrid Kiukainen culture (2300-1500 BCE). Modern Baltic people have a roughly equal proportion of haplogroup N1c1 and R1a, resulting from this merger of Uralic and Slavic cultures.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#N

So, it seems N1c1 was possibly in Europe as early as 8000BC. The Comb Ceramic Culture was just another later culture, developed out of the same Uralic people imo.

I'm not really trying to prove anything, just trying to understand it in better terms than A+B=C - I like to know the whole story, all the movements of who went where.

They didn't enter Europe c.4200 BC per the following:

Importantly, the subcluster N3a1 appears to be older in south Siberia

than in Europe (10 ky and 8.2 ky ago, respectively), allowing the

suggestion that the first expansion of N3a1 occurred in the

south Siberian region, and then this subcluster spread to the

West, into the Urals and Eastern Europe.

Source: Y-chromosome haplogroup N dispersals from south Siberia to Europe

J Hum Genet (2007) 52:763–770

DOI 10.1007/s10038-007-0179-5

N3a1 is the old name for N1c1 and 8.2 kya would be 6200 BC.

I'm not really trying to prove anything, just trying to understand it in better terms than A+B=C - I like to know the whole story, all the movements of who went where.

You've come a long way. You should be proud of yourself.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Haplogroup I2a2a was found in the skeletal remains of Lichtenstein Cave, a Bronze Age archaeological site in central Germany associated with artifacts of the Urnfield culture.[29] Of the 19 males represented in the cave, 15 yielded the full 12 tested STR values, with twelve showing I2a2a, one R1b, and two R1a. Of the 21 females in the cave, the majority were mtDNA H, with mtDNA U5b the runner-up

So, I2a2a seems dominant in Germany 1000BC.

I gather then, that I2a2a deriving from I2a2 is a people who settled in central Germany and had been part of the megalithic culture at one time.

The German term Deutsche originates from the Old High German word diutisc (from diot "people"), referring to the Germanic "language of the people". It is not clear how commonly, if at all, the word was used as an ethnonym in Old High German.

Used as a noun, ein diutscher in the sense of "a German" emerges in Middle High German, attested from the second half of the 12th century.[8]

The Old French term alemans is taken from the name of the Alamanni. It was loaned into Middle English as almains in the early 14th century. The word dutch is attested in English from the 14th century, denoting continental West Germanic ("Dutch" and "German") dialects and their speakers.[9]

While in most the Romance languages the Germans have been named from the Swabians or Alamanni (some, like standard Italian, retain an older borrowing of the endonym), the Old Norse, Finnish and Estonian names of the Germans was taken from that of the Saxons. In Slavic languages, the Germans were given the name of němьci (singular němьcь), originally with a meaning "foreigner, one who does not speak [slavic]".

The English term Germans is only attested from the mid-16th century, based on the classical Latin term Germani used by Julius Caesar and later Tacitus. It gradually replaced Dutch and Almains, the latter becoming mostly obsolete by the early 18th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans

Here the Germans are the Alamanni (in the OLB too).

Originating about 1800 BCE from the Corded Ware Culture on the North German plain, the Germanic peoples expanded into southern Scandinavia and towards the Vistula river during the Nordic Bronze Age, reaching the lower Danube by 200 BCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples

Edit to add: Around 2400 BCE the people of the Corded Ware replaced their predecessors and expanded to Danubian and Nordic areas of western Germany. One related branch invaded Denmark and southern Sweden, while the mid-Danubian basin, though showing more continuity, shows also clear traits of new Indo-European elites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

It's late, I'll have to do more on the Germans tomorrow.

Edited April 25, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Cool, thanks, I'm trying hard.

Leave the German question - I think I nutted it out. (Or give me your opinion if you like)

I need more time, too late now.

Edited April 25, 2012 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

Sweden, Denmark and Norway might hold the I1 that was there prior to the arrival of N1c1 or R1a in the areas. I1 imo would be the haplogroup of the people of Doggerland area. There was also a more south east European I2 people.

Doubtful, since I1 only dates to c.2000 - 4000 BC while N1c1 dates to c.6200 and R1a (particularly R1a1a1g/M-458) dates to circa 9000 BC. It also should be noted that N1c1 dates to the end of Doggerland so it's more likely IMO that the people of Doggerland were R1a.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Doubtful, since I1 only dates to c.2000 - 4000 BC while N1c1 dates to c.6200 and R1a (particularly R1a1a1g/M-458) dates to circa 9000 BC. It also should be noted that N1c1 dates to the end of Doggerland so it's more likely IMO that the people of Doggerland were R1a.

cormac

I'm seeing I1 people as much older.

Haplogroup I is the oldest haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there (apart from deep subclades of other haplogroups). It is thought to have arrived from the Middle East as haplogroup IJ sometime between 45,000 and 30,000 years ago, and developed into haplogroup I approximately 25,000 years ago. In other words, Cro-Magnons most probably belonged to IJ and I (alongside older haplogroups like F and possibly even C).

The I1 branch is estimated to have split away 20,000 years ago and evolved in isolation in Scandinavia during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic. I1 is defined by at least 15 unique mutations, which indicates that this lineage experienced a serious population bottleneck. Men belonging to this haplogroup all descend from a single ancestor who lived between 10,000 and 7,000 years ago.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

If not I1, the pre-I1 or I itself. I will look at it again tomorrow.

Edited April 25, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Actually, that might be very logical, that R1a was in the area that early, food for thought, now I must go.

Maybe not in Doggerland though...

Doggerland: A Real-Life Atlantis

One of the places that was repopulated as the Ice Age waned no longer exists. During the Ice Age and for some time afterward, lower sea levels exposed much of the area that is now covered by the North Sea. Known as "Doggerland," it must have been occupied by men bearing haplogroup I, because today that haplogroup is abundant in all of the countries surrounding the North Sea.

As the meltwaters of the retreating Ice Age glaciers caused sea levels to rise, the low-lying forests and wetlands of Doggerland gradually became inundated. Doggerland's inhabitants retreated to the higher ground that is now the North Sea coast.

Today the I2b1 branch of I2 is common in the Netherlands and Germany. Like I1, which is most common in Denmark and Sweden, it was probably found among the men who inhabited Doggerland.

http://www.keith.ae/paternal-lineage/

I'm working off the maps too and this is what it shows, it would be hard to think Doggerlanders were not I at least.

Edited April 25, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Euryleia]

This is an interesting thread. I didn't know about this connection before. The Saami/Berber connection is somehow unbelievable but that's probably because it's all new to me, yet I've listened to their music for a long time because of my interest in Folklore music around the world.

This thread is old but the picture in the first thread is very familiar, without the green grass of course. There is a spot like that between the clearing that separates the olive trees and the ancient ruins that used to be the family house but which is now used for party celebrations during summertime. Between the ruins of the house and the olive trees grounds I remember a structure exactly the same as the one in the picture posted by the OP. A labyrinth in the shape of that tree. Same exact thing. The kids in the neighborhood would usually gather there to play and I remember being there myself on my last visit to the homeland in 1995.

I'm planning to go back next summer hopefully and I'll take pictures and ask the elders about it. It might be hard to communicate though because I don't speak the Berber language nor do they speak the darijah because the village is isolated from civilization and it's been like that for ages. I wonder if it can be seen with Google Earth.

Edit: The shape also reminds me of an Olive Tree

Edited December 16, 2013 by Euryleia

[GGG guy]

I have a new piece of DNA study on Mal'ta Boy, a Siberian skelectal artifact from Lake Baikal region. He dates to 24,000BC C14. His burial artifacts are consistant with a "Out of Africa" concept for DNA methodology. Its clear that his DNA, now studied, relates to both East European, and American Indians. This supports my GGG concept, or, Grand Global Genome, wherein, the same ancestor from Siberia went both east (Paleo-American Indians), and west, (Paleo-East Europeans). Can this be Sami peoples too?

My GGG concept would require circum-global navigation, and require a tribal name or identity to show the stepping-stone connections physically such as tribal name, god name, bringing dogs or horses, burial methods, and DNA, etc., to determine compliance. My current date for the earliest such tribal name is 17,000 BC, but moe probable, likely after 10,000 BC. This report covers one-half of my model's conditions. That being that a group of the same ancestor did in fact range from a Siberian start point, travelling both east and west, based on current knowledge, and artifacts.

http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/11/2013/siberia-america-connected-24000-year-old-malta-boy

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12736.html

Whether or not this is Sami related I don't know, but thought this data will offer some more recent studies from DNA sciences. GGG guy

[The_Spartan]

How surprising that you didn't plug in your kubera into post.

[GGG guy]

if we want to add a Kubera, we can. From "the History of Metallurgy and Ancient Iron Smelting" by Rose Solanguarachchi we can ascertain the following of Sri Lanka at locations Aligala, and Sigiriya (9th-10th cent. BC) we can add the following definitions;

1) Kabara means "iron smith"

2) Tabakara means "copper smith"

3)Topasa means "tin smith"

This is on page. 37 of attached book where the word kebara derives from Pali word "kammara". This region exported metal to the Red Sea, and the Mediterranean Sea regions of port named Alakolavara. There is 35 ancient iron sites in this region. The names are from Brahmi (pre-Christain) text as stated therein.

http://thakshana.nsf.ac.lk/pdf/VIDURAWA/VIDU_19_1/VIDU%2019_1_30.pdf

I would say Spartan that my data does hold reguarding Kubera India, and Kebara Cave on Mt. Carmel in the Levant regions. According to this paper, Iron Age iron smiths. My yDNA in Central Europe is R1a, and is Iron Age at 1500+/- 300 years for Europe, and Czech./Bohemian at modern dates.

See if this satifies your question better. I would suggest a wolf/dog tamga should also be found here at Sri Lanka, if I'm correct. Can also allow Persian Gulf source for Phoenicians. Should be related to Kassites as Khabiri and Babylon also, if my trace is in order.

I have another paper that crunches Kabiri name types and is quite extensive. I cannot vouch for all the data in this paper, but some would likely fit into my model, or, be related to data points I may have addressed in this and other blogs. This will add more to your question concerning Kabiri type names with some histories and geographical locations. I don't think I can single-handedly analyse all the information hearin, so I post this as informational. Any comments are welcome.

http://www.ariminia.ro/en/kabiri-kabili-amazigh/

Thanks, and Merry Christmas (X-mas, where runic X means gift), GGG guy.

[Euryleia]

I have another paper that crunches Kabiri name types and is quite extensive. I cannot vouch for all the data in this paper, but some would likely fit into my model, or, be related to data points I may have addressed in this and other blogs. This will add more to your question concerning Kabiri type names with some histories and geographical locations. I don't think I can single-handedly analyse all the information hearin, so I post this as informational. Any comments are welcome.

http://www.ariminia....kabili-amazigh/

Thanks, and Merry Christmas (X-mas, where runic X means gift), GGG guy.

Merry Christmas to you,

I read that entire article and I couldn't help but to comment about it because it's own title is so misleading. It says that Amazigh also means Kabili which is wrong.

Kabile is an ethnic group of Berber and they originate from the north of Algeria (Kabilia) (The pictures posted in their clothes is how they dress. So different than the other Berbers because each ethnic group dress differently than the other). The Amazigh of Morocco are not Kabyle, same with other regions of north africa. They have their own ethnic groups. This is like saying that every Berber out there is Riffian (North Morocco).

Also, the picture shown under the following caption "Amazigh born in England, but native of Rif mountains" is a false information. The people I'm looking at right now look Korean and Riffian people are mostly fair skinned and light haired and look nothing like an asian. You'd be more lucky to find asian looking Berbers in the Central Atlas than anywhere else but certainly not Riffian fair skinned and light haired Berbers.

These mistakes are so little but highly informational, made me unsure of how to approach the subject written by the author.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Euryleia