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No words to explain this sort of video...


Daniel Carver

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q

I beg you all to watch the entire video.

A man (who is bloody and knocked out) lay on the ground at Occupy Oakland

Once a crowd of about 10 rush to his aid, a police chief throws a flash grenade into the crowd trying to help the bloody man.

This is absolutely disgusting.

Honestly -- If riots start to break out in the Occupy events .... its probably the police's fault.

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Nice jump cut at :06, they probably edited out the part where they were holding hands singing Kumbaya.

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The point of the first canister was to move them away. A 2nd was sent when people started flocking back.

If you really want to think the police would've left him there to rot, and the flock of people were needed to swarm him, I don't know what to tell you.

Try to think rationally, and try (as hard as it may be) to suppress your initial anger at what you see.

Also wondering about your "Occupy everything and anything." Sounds like you are asking everyone to "Occupy" everywhere because this man got hurt. Not for the true reason these events are held. That sounds like a sensationalist response, and maybe you should keep the issue of Wall Street wrongs, and police control scrutiny, separate.

Though I know many feel this sort of thing happening (someone getting hurt) is a success that furthers the Occupy movement; which I find kind of disturbing, but understand fully.

And living near Oakland myself, I had every local news station running continuous live footage of this event nonstop for quite awhile. Don't try to paint the overused picture that this force by police was unwarranted. I'm getting sick of hearing this from the uninformed.

Edited by Jerry Only
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The point of the first canister was to move them away. A 2nd was sent when people started flocking back.

If you really want to think the police would've left him there to rot, and the flock of people were needed to swarm him, I don't know what to tell you.

Try to think rationally, and try (as hard as it may be) to suppress your initial anger at what you see.

Also wondering about your "Occupy everything and anything." Sounds like you are asking everyone to "Occupy" everywhere because this man got hurt. Not for the true reason these events are held. That sounds like a sensationalist response, and maybe you should keep the issue of Wall Street wrongs, and police control scrutiny, separate.

Though I know many feel this sort of thing happening (someone getting hurt) is a success that furthers the Occupy movement; which I find kind of disturbing, but understand fully.

And living near Oakland myself, I had every local news station running continuous live footage of this event nonstop for quite awhile. Don't try to paint the overused picture that this force by police was unwarranted. I'm getting sick of hearing this from the uninformed.

Ok, I have watched the video (more than once) and agree entirely with what Jerry has said. I will also say to the OP, put yourself in the position of the Police, who are trying very hard to maintain some sort of order to stop this situation getting out of hand, which is what some (not all) of the mob would be aiming for, for obvious reasons. As a retired police officer with 30 years service I get a little fed up with this 'Bash the police' attitude. They are there to keep law and order. If they step out of line there are routes which can, and should be followed in order to deal with the offending police officer. It's never the rioters who are offending is it!!!!!

You also have to remember that police officers are also human and yes, we also get afraid at times when faced with a possible riot situation. I would suggest that the OP gets a uniform on, stands in front of an angry crowd and see how he reacts although i doubt that is ever likely to happen!

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I've known retired cops and all who retire say it was because they started to view everyone as criminals.

There is no need for riot gear. If the cops would join them ( likely against policy though) they would see that all occupy participants are not rioting criminals.

I cannot comment on this particular incident as I do not have enouph information to go on. But no innocent human who fought for this country should ever get put into critical condition because of his beliefs in America.

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I also want to add that occupy is explicit on a non violent protest. And if these buggers became violent and In fact did incite a riot then the ones who are causing the trouble are a disgrace to the movement and should use their talents elsewhere. Period.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch
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This is a CNN report so some here may think its Gospel.

Its only a related story due to the first paragraph.

http://m.cnn.com/primary/_OgXLz1-i5PcfEwFiPw

It looks like the mayor apologized fir the violence against the protestors and a small comment about the veterans as he's known and his hospitalization.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch
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I've known retired cops and all who retire say it was because they started to view everyone as criminals.

There is no need for riot gear. If the cops would join them ( likely against policy though) they would see that all occupy participants are not rioting criminals.

I cannot comment on this particular incident as I do not have enouph information to go on. But no innocent human who fought for this country should ever get put into critical condition because of his beliefs in America.

You may well know some retired cops who view everyone as criminals. I know of a few myself. I dont happen to be one of them. And like I said in my post '' some (not all) of the mob'' I am well aware that the majority of these people were probably peaceful protesters but with any rally of this kind you get the criminal element who wish to increase the level of rioting for their own purposes. As for being no need for riot gear, I am afraid I have to disagree. Better to be prepared.

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ill concede on being prepared. I also would like to add that once these officers viewed everyone as a possible criminal they chose to retire so not to abuse their position. good folks too they are.

anyways have a good night.

Aus

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But no innocent human who fought for this country should ever get put into critical condition because of his beliefs in America.

An innocent human who fought for this country wasn't put in critical condition because of his beliefs in America. Don't feed that hype.

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Occupy activists have not just yearned for confrontations with police; they have planned them.

In at least two cities, they have sent military veterans–in uniform, thus violating military code–to the front of protest marches in order to provoke police and to be the first targets if and when police do use force.

The Occupy activists havenʼt relied on veterans alone. They have also tried to use “weak” people as sympathetic human shields–the old, the young, and disabled. Prior to the anticipated “cleaning” in Zuccotti Park, another activist, Charles Lenchner, wrote via e-mail: “Push youngest/ oldest to the front lines….This is a battle over images, not just over the park.”

And at the Oakland riot, Occupy activists brought along a woman in a wheelchair. The mainstream media dutifully broadcast the image of them pushing her through clouds of tear gas.

These tactics are not new. They are the same methods used by terrorist organizations like Hamas to win global sympathy during conflict with Israel.

Thatʼs no surprise, given that leading organizers in recent Occupy protests in Chicago are under investigation for links to Hamas and other terrorist groups.

more

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An innocent human who fought for this country wasn't put in critical condition because of his beliefs in America. Don't feed that hype.

You can paint a horse with stripes but its still a horse. So how would my statement be false? The man believed he needed to be there because as his friends said... he believed in his country and while he lived very well with a good job he felt that he needed to be there due to what he believed were injustices in the country that he fought for

Can you word it better for me Jerry so that you approve and it sounds better to you. Please I'm having an awful time trying to rewrite my words so they tell less about the man I want you to be comfortable Jerry. I'd hate for you to lose that warm blissful feeling of not knowing about any individual person so what am I supposed to say?

Jerry you'll have to lend me a hand and show me how to word it.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch
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You can paint a horse with stripes but its still a horse. So how would my statement be false? The man believed he needed to be there because as his friends said... he believed in his country and while he lived very well with a good job he felt that he needed to be there due to what he believed were injustices in the country that he fought for.

Can you word it better for me Jerry so that you approve and it sounds better to you. Please I'm having an awful time trying to rewrite my words so they tell less about the man I want you to be comfortable Jerry. I'd hate for you to lose that warm blissful feeling of not knowing about any individual person so what am I supposed to say?

Jerry you'll have to lend me a hand and show me how to word it.

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He was hurt because he was accidentally hit by flying debris (I use this word simply as defining something thrown, as it isn't positive what he was hit by). Just the way you worded it can be deemed sensationalism and affect the passing reader to imply that he was maliciously attacked for his beliefs. There is a lot more to it, and that's a bit of an unfair generalization. No need to be condescending Aus. You can disagree, but discussions go better if arguing opinions are kept civil, right?

This is why I generally don't like arguing about these type of issues, but this one has twisted my arm, not sure why.

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He was hurt because he was accidentally hit by flying debris (I use this word simply as defining something thrown, as it isn't positive what he was hit by). Just the way you worded it can be deemed sensationalism and affect the passing reader to imply that he was maliciously attacked for his beliefs. There is a lot more to it, and that's a bit of an unfair generalization. No need to be condescending Aus. You can disagree, but discussions go better if arguing opinions are kept civil, right?

This is why I generally don't like arguing about these type of issues, but this one has twisted my arm, not sure why.

I can see where your coming from. I'm not a big fan of sensationalism either. It had appeared as though we were trying to establish a hear no evil see no evil speak no evil type of mentality. But I do understand.

These are supposed to be civil non violent protests meant for awareness and hopefully through bringing the conversation to peoples dinner tables change can be discussed and implemented by people who after discussion come to find common ground to start from. I read Jerry in other threads that you wish there to be another way. I believe occupy if done right will effectively be your other way. I hope the people who discuss this topic can find the common ground to use their intelligence to make better choices and hopefully make a difference.

Remember Jerry we don't need to agree on everything because even with different views we are still talking about the same issues. To me that brings us together. I hope to keep discussing these and future topics with you.

And thank you for responding.

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Occupy activists have not just yearned for confrontations with police; they have planned them.

In at least two cities, they have sent military veterans–in uniform, thus violating military code–to the front of protest marches in order to provoke police and to be the first targets if and when police do use force.

The Occupy activists havenʼt relied on veterans alone. They have also tried to use “weak” people as sympathetic human shields–the old, the young, and disabled. Prior to the anticipated “cleaning” in Zuccotti Park, another activist, Charles Lenchner, wrote via e-mail: “Push youngest/ oldest to the front lines….This is a battle over images, not just over the park.”

And at the Oakland riot, Occupy activists brought along a woman in a wheelchair. The mainstream media dutifully broadcast the image of them pushing her through clouds of tear gas.

These tactics are not new. They are the same methods used by terrorist organizations like Hamas to win global sympathy during conflict with Israel.

Thatʼs no surprise, given that leading organizers in recent Occupy protests in Chicago are under investigation for links to Hamas and other terrorist groups.

more

You've got to be kidding me.. everyone with an opinion is now connected to terrorism. Welcome to America if your not a yes MSN you must ne a terrorist. I may be taking my comment a bit far but seriously first ows was anti Semitic now they are connected to terrorism ... what's next they'll be baby killers and Communists? Oh wait the Communist part has already been used... what haven't they been accused of?

Anyways lets be more grounded and less branding. Jerry and I have had a short but decent discussion on this very topic and I think we all can agree that sensationalism and branding of the masses is unnecessary.

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The point of the first canister was to move them away. A 2nd was sent when people started flocking back.

The people started flocking back to help a person who was lying injured on the ground. The grenade should not have been thrown in the middle of the crowd at all. You're risking adding to the injuries by doing that, and in this instance, it was avoidable.

If you really want to think the police would've left him there to rot, and the flock of people were needed to swarm him, I don't know what to tell you.

So in your mind, when people see someone injured and lying on the ground, their instinct should be to ignore them and walk away? That's what your suggesting?

put yourself in the position of the Police, who are trying very hard to maintain some sort of order to stop this situation getting out of hand

Are you kidding me? Police arent all the good, warm hearted saints you make them out to be. The average police officer there isnt there for altruistic reasons. He's there because its his job and his bosses told him to be there. I'm willing to bet that the average police officer, once they put on the riot gear, no longer has the "I'm here to protect the people" mentality, but rather a "them vs. us" mentality.

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So in your mind, when people see someone injured and lying on the ground, their instinct should be to ignore them and walk away? That's what your suggesting?

Their common sense should be to back off when the police tell them to through whatever means, and let the police take over that situation, and get medical help to the man (which, of course, is what ended up happening). Those people probably had good intentions, but were doing the wrong thing. Again, if you think that man needed a flock of people to run up to him, assuming the police would leave him left alone, I don't know what to say to you.

Are you kidding me? Police arent all the good, warm hearted saints you make them out to be. The average police officer there isnt there for altruistic reasons. He's there because its his job and his bosses told him to be there. I'm willing to bet that the average police officer, once they put on the riot gear, no longer has the "I'm here to protect the people" mentality, but rather a "them vs. us" mentality.

That's your opinion, and is purely uninformed, biased conjecture. Their job was to keep order, and that's all the person you quoted there was saying. Don't need to be a saint to do what you've been trained to. Sometimes, you have to be the "bad guy" in popular opinion.

Edited by Jerry Only
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I hope we don't experience a new Kent. State University Disaster.

If/When this really kicks off, it'll make Kent State look like a love in.

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Are you kidding me? Police arent all the good, warm hearted saints you make them out to be. The average police officer there isnt there for altruistic reasons. He's there because its his job and his bosses told him to be there. I'm willing to bet that the average police officer, once they put on the riot gear, no longer has the "I'm here to protect the people" mentality, but rather a "them vs. us" mentality.

Oh dear. :( I suggest you take a good look at the quote you use on your posts. Let me remind you. it says:-

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

Might I suggest you arm yourself ? I think I am sufficiently knowledgable in the subject to inform you that what you have said is quite untrue. However, It does become a ''them vs us'' mentality when they come under attack from an unruly mob. Unfortunately in these situations the media are just as bad because they tend to sensationalise any apparent wrong doing by a police officer. They are very good at editing out the incident that might have started it! Nothing much is ever said about the people who are there merely to cause trouble and start a riot. Oh no, it's always the Police's fault. Dont get me wrong. I am not saying that all police officers are angels. Far from it. What I am saying is that just because an officer kits up with riot gear doesnt mean he then becomes some kind of monster who is out to get any civilian that happens to be close enough! I would suggest the 'average police officer will still do his duty in the manner expected of him.'

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That's your opinion, and is purely uninformed, biased conjecture.

Why? Because my opinion is different than yours? I did not pull this opinion out of my ass. I have reasons for believing what I do.

Their job was to keep order, and that's all the person you quoted there was saying. Don't need to be a saint to do what you've been trained to. Sometimes, you have to be the "bad guy" in popular opinion.

Indeed, you dont need to be a saint to do what you've been trained to do. What my issue with is when people start talking as if the police could never do any wrong.

I think I am sufficiently knowledgable in the subject to inform you that what you have said is quite untrue.

And I disagree with you.

However, It does become a ''them vs us'' mentality when they come under attack from an unruly mob.

I think it's become a them vs us mentality long ago, personally. And a couple bad apples in the mob just ignites the situation.

The issue is that the police are supposed to be the ones looking out for the rights of the people... and it's becoming apparent to me that in many of these current situations, the mentality is that the enemy *is* the people.

What I am saying is that just because an officer kits up with riot gear doesnt mean he then becomes some kind of monster who is out to get any civilian that happens to be close enough!

On, that is not what I meant. I dont claim them to be some evil monsters. I'm just saying that when they put on the riot gear (rather, when they're put in that very situation), they begin to see the people as the enemy. And I'll admit freely, the protestors then tend to see the police as the enemy aswell. Police can and will do the wrong thing just as some protestors can. Hell, remember the whole pepper spray incident? It would be wrong to assume that the police are always in the right.

I would suggest the 'average police officer will still do his duty in the manner expected of him.'

Ahh, that opens up a whole new debate, I'd say. What really is the police officer's duty?

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And I disagree with you.

I think it's become a them vs us mentality long ago, personally. And a couple bad apples in the mob just ignites the situation.

The issue is that the police are supposed to be the ones looking out for the rights of the people... and it's becoming apparent to me that in many of these current situations, the mentality is that the enemy *is* the people.

On, that is not what I meant. I dont claim them to be some evil monsters. I'm just saying that when they put on the riot gear (rather, when they're put in that very situation), they begin to see the people as the enemy. And I'll admit freely, the protestors then tend to see the police as the enemy aswell. Police can and will do the wrong thing just as some protestors can. Hell, remember the whole pepper spray incident? It would be wrong to assume that the police are always in the right.

Ahh, that opens up a whole new debate, I'd say. What really is the police officer's duty?

Ok Stellar. You obviously have your own views on certain things that have been raised in this discussion to which, of course, you are entitled to and I respect. We will just have to agree to disagree :)

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Ok Stellar. You obviously have your own views on certain things that have been raised in this discussion to which, of course, you are entitled to and I respect. We will just have to agree to disagree :)

Just know that you, sir, are wrong. :yes:

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Just know that you, sir, are wrong. :yes:

Yes Daniel, and you also are entitled to your opinion :)

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