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Cern Speed-of-light experiment to be repeated


Still Waters

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Scientists who claimed to have recorded particles travelling faster than the speed of light will rerun their experiment with minor alterations in a bid to prove their results.

Researchers at Cern, the world's largest laboratory in Switzerland, announced last month that tiny neutrinos had been observed travelling marginally faster than light.

But the results met with widespread scepticism within the scientific community, not least because Einstein's theory of special relativity – one of the cornerstones of modern physics – makes such a feat impossible.

The results from the Opera experiment appeared to show that the particles had travelled 732km through the Earth from Cern to the Gran Sasso laboratory in Italy marginally faster than light would have done.

According to Einstein nothing should be able to travel faster than light, and evidence that neutrinos were capable of doing so would have a fundamental impact on our understanding of the universe and of time.

The findings were so unlikely and of such critical importance that the researchers chose not to claim a "discovery", instead inviting scientists across the world to scrutinise their data for errors.

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Many in the scientific community have responded to this, rightly, with great caution, believing that there may have been a measurement error.

If however, a repeat experiment still shows faster than light results, then could we be at the dawn of a major paradigm shift?

I eagerly await their findings.

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Many in the scientific community have responded to this, rightly, with great caution, believing that there may have been a measurement error.

If however, a repeat experiment still shows faster than light results, then could we be at the dawn of a major paradigm shift?

I eagerly await their findings.

I agree with you. There was a book I read a few years ago that touched on the topic of the advancement of science over a long span of time...I can't think of the name of it at the moment, but it isn't really important. The gist of the subject was that the amount of all the knowledge is growing exponentially faster as our society invests more time and effort into studying science, as well as creating tools that allow the knowledge to arrive faster(i.e computers). To look at what we knew two millenia ago, to two centuries ago, to two decades ago, just really shows how things are speeding up.

What we once believed to be the truth has changed, and I personally find absolutes in science to be a bad idea(i.e. nothing can go faster than light). We are as smart as we have ever been as a society, but in another 200 years we will look back at 2011 as if it were the dark ages.

Who knows what single fundamental change in our knowledge with change everything? We are blessed ever century or so with just a couple people who are the caliber of Newton or Einstein, who are able to take things and change the world in a way we never thought possible. Einstein was right about things, but what happens when a new particle is discovered, or we create a device that can see things we didn't even know that existed? Things will change. Generations from now they could look back at us as we looked at those who thought they could sail off the edge of the earth.

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They made a mistake by claiming that it was possible to go faster then the speed of light. It upset too many people in the scientific community. ALSO GOING FASTER THEN THE SPEED OF LIGHT COULD BE A MILITARY SECRET. Weapons based on such ability could revolutionize warfare and the conquest of space.

What if we have secret space ships today which people call UFOs can travel faster then the speed of light? Then the entire universe is open to coloniztion. But the powers who run this world do not fell the time is right to admit such technology exists.

Here is a little example of what I am refering to. We are told the fusion power does not exist yet there is a US patent #4023065 dated May 10, 1975 entitled, METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR GENERATING AND UTILIZING COMPOUND PLASMA CONFIGURATION. It is a fusion engine the size of an egg that can power a star ship. A US naval scientist filed the patent.

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Mike215, in my honest opinion our bodies could not handle traveling anywhere near the speed of light, much less faster than.

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Sounds like a reasonable way of loosing accuracy and a helpful way to ensure it.

I wonder what the g force would be if you went from zero to the speed of light in the shortest increment of time?

I also wonder how long it would take to climb to the speed of light through a continual g-force tolerable by the average astronaut?

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Sounds like a reasonable way of loosing accuracy and a helpful way to ensure it.

I wonder what the g force would be if you went from zero to the speed of light in the shortest increment of time?

I also wonder how long it would take to climb to the speed of light through a continual g-force tolerable by the average astronaut?

I read an interesting book which speculated about what research had actually been carried out with regard to near light speed travel. It said that if you apply a massive electric charge differential to a body you create a distortion in the gravity field into which the object falls. The point was that because it was gravity which was altered there was no actual acceleration within the body, ie it felt like the internal space was stationary. This could allow travel at up to light speed (or possibly beyond) with no discernible force on the body itself. It fits very well with descriptions of how UFO objects behave over Area52, that is travelling at incredible speed and then suddenly stopping and changing direction.

An interesting book and an interesting explanation for the behaviour of supposedly "UFO"'s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrogravitics

http://www.amazon.com/Electrogravitics-Systems-Reports-Propulsion-Methodology/dp/0964107007

I cannot say I actually believe it, but the actual historical accounts of the research undertaken and the buzz within the 1960's aviation industry is interesting.

Br Cornelius

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*goes to play Mass Effect*

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Sounds like a reasonable way of loosing accuracy and a helpful way to ensure it.

I wonder what the g force would be if you went from zero to the speed of light in the shortest increment of time?

I also wonder how long it would take to climb to the speed of light through a continual g-force tolerable by the average astronaut?

The speed of light would, it's commonly held, never be attained at *any* acceleration. It would be possible to come arbitrarily near the speed of light -- say, ~99%, of C after about a year of constant 1 G acceleration. Any greater G force over the long term could possibly be harmful. Edited by bison
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The scientists are always behind reality. In the early 19th century they were saying no human could travel faster then 50 mph. And the scientists miscalculated concerning the sound barrier. How many times did they say humans and planes could not go faster then the speed of sound? And then came the space age and they were arguing that humans could not go into space because of g forces invovled. So we sent the monkeys into space first to see if they could survive. Even after they came back safely the US scientists still did not believe that humans could go into orbit. So when the Russians launched the first man into space in 1961, our scientists were in shock. How was this possible. Then the stories that it was all a lie an no Russians went into space.

Now we are told humans cannot travel faster then the speed of light. So they do not believe their own experiments. Ignorance is bliss.

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There is nothing preventing travel faster than light speed. What becomes confusing when thinking about the issue in a thought experiment, is the medium through which one must travel.

G forces do not actually apply in this scenario, as one would be travelling outside of a particular planet's gravity well. The associated and often confused term that applies here, is inertia. One could not immediately accelerate to the Speed of Light, nor could one immediately decellerate from such a speed, without the forces of inertia acting upon the body.

In the absence of atmosphere, gravity, and other forms of friction, an object will continue to move in a straight line without decelleration, until/unless acted upon by an external force. It's not like here on Earth where friction will stop your ball if you toss it rolling.

All of that being said, one could certainly gradually approach and surpass the speed of light. The speed of light is not a 'speed limit' it is merely a constant that we use for to understand the measure of the observable universe.

Neutrinos are neutrally charged, and are so small that they pass right through you and I all the time. In fact, many pass straight through the entire Earth. The way that we detect Neutrinos is by using a large pool of heavy water, way underground. A photo is taken of the energy that escapes as light, when a neutrino impacts the pool. (Also done on Photoplates)...

Generally speaking, the common interpretation of Einstein's SR holds that an object with mass cannot move at the speed of light, and that an object without mass will travel at the speed of light.

However, just because our current description of the physical universe is incomplete, doesn't mean things like this don't happen.

Essentially, for SR to be satisfied, the observer would necessarily be external to the experiment. So if you were on a planet, watching a spaceship shoot off at light speed, you would not SEE them achieve light speed, even if they did.

From the perspective of the traveler, internal to the experiment, speed is no longer judged in the same manner as it would be to the external observer. In fact, experiments have proven that the faster one travels, the slower that time actually passes. (See atomic clock experiments, 1 on a plane, 1 on the ground...)

So when you begin to travel quickly, the flow of time from your perspective begins to alter. This is real physics, all in accordance with Einstein's SR.

So how exactly, if 'The Speed of Light' is merely a representation of the propagation of a photon through a medium....

And that representation CHANGES with the internal observer's momentum....

How then can the 'Speed of Light' be thought of as a limit on anything? Declaring the Speed of Light a speed limit goes beyond Science and into Hypothesis yet unproven.

Anyone who tells you that it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, is making an a priori prediction.

In the opinion of this author, such a prediction is not only baseless, but in contrast with what we know about Space and Time.

Hell, we've been altering the speed of light here on Earth since at least the year 2000:

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/newsday/access/56668683.html?dids=56668683:56668683&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jul+20%2C+2000&author=Bryn+Nelson.+STAFF+WRITER&pub=Newsday+(Combined+editions)&desc=When+Light+Is+Faster+Than+Light&pqatl=google

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The speed of light would, it's commonly held, never be attained at *any* acceleration. It would be possible to come arbitrarily near the speed of light -- say, ~99%, of C after about a year of constant 1 G acceleration. Any greater G force over the long term could possibly be harmful.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this is just nonsense.

Accellerating at 1G will never ever ever ever hurt you.

In face we've all been doing it for the entire duration of our lives.

It's amazing to me that people forget that they are even now sitting on the surface of a planet that is moving through space.

We call it 1 G because it's a term that relates the force of Earth's Gravity. Kind of like we call 1 AU (Astronomical Unit) the distance between Earth and the Sun.

These are Earth terms. We made them up, because it's easy for us, because we live here. We count in base 10 because we have 10 fingers, not because base 10 is magic.

You have been experiencing the force exactly equivalent to 1 G your entire life.

How has it adversely affected you? And how would you even know the difference without having an identical twin that has lived their entire life off-world?

Travelling at a constant accelleration of 1 G (as you call it, although outside of the gravity well speed isn't calculated this way...) would not hurt anyone in anyway.

What it would do - pointedly- would be to exactly replicate the 'gravity' level we are accustomed to here on Earth. You would merely weigh your normal Earth-weight, off-world, due to the acceleration forces on the vessel.

-Brand of Amber

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I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this is just nonsense.

Accellerating at 1G will never ever ever ever hurt you.

In face we've all been doing it for the entire duration of our lives.

It's amazing to me that people forget that they are even now sitting on the surface of a planet that is moving through space.

We call it 1 G because it's a term that relates the force of Earth's Gravity. Kind of like we call 1 AU (Astronomical Unit) the distance between Earth and the Sun.

These are Earth terms. We made them up, because it's easy for us, because we live here. We count in base 10 because we have 10 fingers, not because base 10 is magic.

You have been experiencing the force exactly equivalent to 1 G your entire life.

How has it adversely affected you? And how would you even know the difference without having an identical twin that has lived their entire life off-world?

Travelling at a constant accelleration of 1 G (as you call it, although outside of the gravity well speed isn't calculated this way...) would not hurt anyone in anyway.

What it would do - pointedly- would be to exactly replicate the 'gravity' level we are accustomed to here on Earth. You would merely weigh your normal Earth-weight, off-world, due to the acceleration forces on the vessel.

-Brand of Amber

I believe you'll find, if you look at my post again, that I was speaking of the possibility of long term acceleration *greater* than one G being harmful. I called it merely a possibility because we have no practical data on the effects of year-long acceleration at greater than one G, on the human body. Given what we *do* know of the effects of G forces, it seems reasonable to expect some negative effects, particularly at accelerations well above one G. I also believe you'll find that Einstein's theory of relativity states that there is no real difference between the effects of being in a gravity field and the effects of inertia due to acceleration.
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I believe you'll find, if you look at my post again, that I was speaking of the possibility of long term acceleration *greater* than one G being harmful. I called it merely a possibility because we have no practical data on the effects of year-long acceleration at greater than one G, on the human body. Given what we *do* know of the effects of G forces, it seems reasonable to expect some negative effects, particularly at accelerations well above one G. I also believe you'll find that Einstein's theory of relativity states that there is no real difference between the effects of being in a gravity field and the effects of inertia due to acceleration.

Correct me if I am in err in reading your posing. Wouldn't an acceleration of 1G permanent eliminate the negative effects known to exist in living in space with near 0 G forces? I would predict, in fact, that considering 2 persons in space (with 1 under permanent 1G acceleration and another with anything less than 1G forces) an accelerating person would fair measurably better in great portions physically to the more stationary person.

Mark

Edited by Taita
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There is nothing preventing travel faster than light speed.

I would say there are things preventing FTL.

...one could certainly gradually approach and surpass the speed of light. The speed of light is not a 'speed limit' it is merely a constant that we use for to understand the measure of the observable universe.

No, it is a speed limit in the theory of relativity. It would take infinite kinetic energy for a massive object to reach the speed of light. To surpass the speed of light the object would have to have a purely imaginary mass.

However, just because our current description of the physical universe is incomplete, doesn't mean things like this don't happen.

Sure, but you have to provide an internally consistent theory to account for any new phenomenon, otherwise it will (rightfully) be held suspect.

From the perspective of the traveler, internal to the experiment, speed is no longer judged in the same manner as it would be to the external observer.

That is wrong, as I demonstrated in the older thread on this subject. ``Speed'' is analogous to ``proper time'', which is a scalar invariant - and therefore the same in any reference frame. Time does slow down as you mention, but also distances contract. It works out so that speed = distance / time is constant from all perspectives.

So how exactly, if 'The Speed of Light' is merely a representation of the propagation of a photon through a medium....

And that representation CHANGES with the internal observer's momentum....

How then can the 'Speed of Light' be thought of as a limit on anything?

The representation of a photon's propagation through a medium doesn't change with the internal observer's reference frame, that is the entire point of SR. It doesn't matter what you (and your space ship) is doing, light is always traveling at ~3 x 108 m/s faster than you are.

SR (and GR) clearly places the speed of light as an upper limit on the speed of massive objects, and strongly suggests that massless objects travel at the speed of light. (There is some debate on the ``speed of gravity'' but most of the evidence seems in favour of it traveling at the speed of light - as far as I know.)

Since neutrino oscillation seems to indicate that they have a non-zero mass, it is odd that they can travel faster than light.

I'm not saying the OPERA guys are necessarily wrong, I am just saying that the general suspicion of their results is warranted until further experimental confirmation.

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Are there not differnt types of photons aka light that may travel at slightly different rates of speed. I believe so. Plus zero gravity is harmfull as well as one G. Both have effects on the body and over time both harm us.

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Are there not differnt types of photons aka light that may travel at slightly different rates of speed. I believe so.

Not in a vacuum. In matter the electric permittivity and (sometimes) the magnetic permeability are different for different electromagnetic wavelengths, so different colours of light can have different speeds (or more reasonably, radio waves may travel slower than microwaves)

In all cases, however, the vacuum speed of light is an upper bound on the speed of regular light propagation in any material.

(The phase components of virtual particles can sometimes exceed the speed of light but this does not really involve energy propagation. Some systems exhibit negative group delay where the group velocity of a tuned pulse exceeds the speed of light, but the attenuation of the pulse prevents superluminal transfer of energy, and these systems cannot be used to communicate faster than the speed of light.)

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Not in a vacuum. In matter the electric permittivity and (sometimes) the magnetic permeability are different for different electromagnetic wavelengths, so different colours of light can have different speeds (or more reasonably, radio waves may travel slower than microwaves)

In all cases, however, the vacuum speed of light is an upper bound on the speed of regular light propagation in any material.

(The phase components of virtual particles can sometimes exceed the speed of light but this does not really involve energy propagation. Some systems exhibit negative group delay where the group velocity of a tuned pulse exceeds the speed of light, but the attenuation of the pulse prevents superluminal transfer of energy, and these systems cannot be used to communicate faster than the speed of light.)

Havn`t they showen that different light waves (photons) or in this case nutenos travel through the vacum of space from the sun to the earth to travel at different speeds. A vacum in that case has been explained as a none issue. Ok I am way over my head lol

Edited by The Silver Thong
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Correct me if I am in err in reading your posing. Wouldn't an acceleration of 1G permanent eliminate the negative effects known to exist in living in space with near 0 G forces? I would predict, in fact, that considering 2 persons in space (with 1 under permanent 1G acceleration and another with anything less than 1G forces) an accelerating person would fair measurably better in great portions physically to the more stationary person.

Mark

Yes, any departure from one G, either downward toward zero, or upward of one, could present a problem. Any means of generating effects like those of a gravity field in space travel, such as a one G acceleration, is a good solution.
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