California university

[farandaway]

Youre exactly right, which is probably why you can't find a cohesive statement from the OWS groups regarding their demands or goals. No one wants to be the first to get sent to gitmo. Equality cannot be reached under the system we have now, the 1% (or a percentage thereof) have made sure of that.

Revolutions started across the globe last spring with movements just like OWS.

Except that so-called equality can be reached. Unfortunately, you have to work really hard to get there. Of course since the regulation nation took over it is a little more difficult.

Another thing you have to remember, is that no matter how unhappy a bunch of disenchanted kids are, this is not a third world nation. People in other countries that are revolting, may be fighting for their very lives. If any of the OWS crowd thinks their lives are in danger, they are not only paranoid, they are delusional. There is real starvation and deprivation out in the big wide world, folks, be happy you're Americans.

While times in this country are admittedly tough right now, we still are not as bad off as parts of Europe, Egypt, Syria or many other countries, either financially or politically.

You can rail against corporations all you want. But they still make the world go around. They provide jobs, goods and services, that most of us appreciate. They provide most of us (especially the poor) with a quality of life, that is lacking in countries with little or no industry. If you don't realize that, you are fooling yourselves. No corporation, benefits from a stagnant economy. Without a thriving market, the corporate world loses money. You may tell yourself you don't care, but that really affects all of us, all 100%. All the protests in the world won't fix that catastrophe. Income inequality is a direct result of government interference, the more interference, the less opportunity. The penchant of Washington to over-regulate the private sector, takes away the ability of any of us to profit or even earn a decent living.

The fiscal problems that are plaguing this country right now, are a result of Big Government, not Wall Street. Regulatory agencies have seen their budgets grow 16% since 2008. Employment within these agencies has risen 13%, while employment in the private sector shrank by 5.6%. Public sector growth, chokes out the private sector. Government spending is now at about 25% of GDP. This contributes to a decline of corporate profits of national output, which leads to a reduction of economic growth.

No amount of protesting will address these issues. All I hear from protesters is the parroting of far left propaganda, ultimatums and threats. Oh, and gimmee. They purport to be the 99%. Well, I never chose these unwashed, miscreant lawbreakers to represent me, so, no thank you very much. They need to go home, bathe and get on with their lives, and stay out of the rest of ours. They don't know what they're doing, or what they're talking about, and they're wasting real taxpayers money, that we can't afford to spend on their temper tantrums.

[ninjadude]

Wikki's nice and all, but I have yet to see any of that on the OWS website. I would like to get something from the horse's mouth.

A Modest Call to Action on this September 17th

Posted 2 months ago on Sept. 17, 2011, 9:46 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

This statement is ours, and for anyone who will get behind it. Representing ourselves (not the movement as a whole), we bring this call for revolution.

We want freedom for all, without regards for identity, because we are all people, and because no other reason should be needed. However, this freedom has been largely taken from the people, and slowly made to trickle down, whenever we get angry.

Money, it has been said, has taken over politics. In truth, we say, money has always been part of the capitalist political system. A system based on the existence of have and have nots, where inequality is inherent to the system, will inevitably lead to a situation where the haves find a way to rule, whether by the sword or by the dollar.

We agree that we need to see election reform. However, the election reform proposed ignores the causes which allowed such a system to happen. Some will readily blame the federal reserve, but the political system has been beholden to political machinations of the wealthy well before its founding.

We need to address the core facts: these corporations, even if they were unable to compete in the electoral arena, would still remain control of society. They would retain economic control, which would allow them to retain political control. Term limits would, again, not solve this, as many in the political class already leave politics to find themselves as part of the corporate elites.

We need to retake the freedom that has been stolen from the people, altogether.

1. If you agree that freedom is the right to communicate, to live, to be, to go, to love, to do what you will without the impositions of others, then you might be one of us.
2. If you agree that a person is entitled to the sweat of their brows, that being talented at management should not entitle others to act like overseers and overlords, that all workers should have the right to engage in decisions, democratically, then you might be one of us.
3. If you agree that freedom for some is not the same as freedom for all, and that freedom for all is the only true freedom, then you might be one of us.
4. If you agree that power is not right, that life trumps property, then you might be one of us.
5. If you agree that state and corporation are merely two sides of the same oppressive power structure, if you realize how media distorts things to preserve it, how it pits the people against the people to remain in power, then you might be one of us.

And so we call on people to act

1. We call for protests to remain active in the cities. Those already there, to grow, to organize, to raise consciousnesses, for those cities where there are no protests, for protests to organize and disrupt the system.
2. We call for workers to not only strike, but seize their workplaces collectively, and to organize them democratically. We call for students and teachers to act together, to teach democracy, not merely the teachers to the students, but the students to the teachers. To seize the classrooms and free minds together.
3. We call for the unemployed to volunteer, to learn, to teach, to use what skills they have to support themselves as part of the revolting people as a community.
4. We call for the organization of people's assemblies in every city, every public square, every township.
5. We call for the seizure and use of abandoned buildings, of abandoned land, of every property seized and abandoned by speculators, for the people, for every group that will organize them.

We call for a revolution of the mind as well as the body politic. http://occupywallst....ber_Revolution/

About

OccupyWallSt.org is the unofficial de facto online resource for the growing occupation movement happening on Wall Street and around the world. We're an affinity group committed to doing technical support work for resistance movements. We're not a subcommittee of the NYCGA nor affiliated with Adbusters, anonymous or any other organization.

Occupy Wall Street is a people-powered movement that began on September 17, 2011 in Liberty Square in Manhattan’s Financial District, and has spread to over 100 cities in the United States and actions in over 1,500 cities globally. #ows is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations. The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to expose how the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.

The occupations around the world are being organized using a non-binding consensus based collective decision making tool known as a "people's assembly". To learn more about how to use this process to organize your local community to fight back against social injustice, please read this quick guide on group dynamics in people's assemblies.

Solidarity Forever! http://occupywallst.org/about/

Edited November 21, 2011 by ninjadude

[F3SS]

Lot's of Anarchy! What ever, I'll do what I want...as Cartman put it so well.

I edited your post to the short version.

About taking over the work place...If my guys 'took over' my business I would pack up my tools and my business bank account and tell them good luck. None of them want my responsibility and on top of that my customers wouldn't deal with them anyways. They know it is I who understands how to operate my business.

And comparing management to overlords...good grief!

Edited November 21, 2011 by Is it for real

[Travelling Man]

I edited your post to the short version.

About taking over the work place...If my guys 'took over' my business I would pack up my tools and my business bank account and tell them good luck. None of them want my responsibility and on top of that my customers wouldn't deal with them anyways. They know it is I who understands how to operate my business.

And comparing management to overlords...good grief!

It is a shame that we don't have a "thumbs up" function here.

If you look at the "demands" (the first numbered list), it is clear that they want a Socialist anarchy with NOBODY in charge (because they might be seen as evil overseers), and they don't want anything close to capitalism. Then, if you look at their final "demand" - it is clear that they don't want to believe in any sort of property ownership or property law.

Sorry, while I might agree with a few of their ideas (emphasis on "FEW"), their ideas would put the US and entire industrialized and first world nation back into the stone age.

They REALLY need to start taking lessons from The Palestinian Authority on how to manipulate the media (like they try, like with the UC Davis cops) - and learn how to spin a story. They are getting their collective butts handed to them by the people they SHOULD be trying to control.

[randym23]

Exactly.

"They weren't doing anything wrong"

Well, when the police order you to move and you don't, you are doing something wrong.

no you're not. you're protesting. If I were in the protesters position yes I would expect a response. I would expect to get ARRESTED not assaulted. The police could have just took them away or sprayed the pepper spray but not at point blank range. Those police had several choices.

People still have the right to assemble and protest and just because a police officer does something does not automatically make it right. first and foremost, officers are PEOPLE capable of flaw and wrongdoing like anyone else. They should not be regarded as absolute and infallible. That is how you get abuse of power.

[Travelling Man]

no you're not. you're protesting. If I were in the protesters position yes I would expect a response. I would expect to get ARRESTED not assaulted. The police could have just took them away or sprayed the pepper spray but not at point blank range. Those police had several choices.

People still have the right to assemble and protest and just because a police officer does something does not automatically make it right. first and foremost, officers are PEOPLE capable of flaw and wrongdoing like anyone else. They should not be regarded as absolute and infallible. That is how you get abuse of power.

Okay, and when the protestors have their arms interlocked and are refusing to let go, how do you just "take them away?" There are two delivery methods for pepper spray on the market - a "squirter" and a "sprayer". A squirter has a range of about 30 feet and is actually dangerous to use at close (point blank) range as the "beam" may damage soft tissues (eyes). A sprayer only has a range of about four feet - anything further away allows the spray to dissipate to the point that it is horribly inaccurate.

Can the police attempt to physically separate them? Not hardly - because police are trained to NOT give an active resister a chance to hurt the cop - it's self preservation.

And THEN, we have the situation with video and spin-doctors working their magic.

1. Cops do nothing = cops are ineffectual and the protesters won a "huge victory".

2. Cops attempt to physically separate the protesters = cops are brutish thugs who injure the peaceful protesters (because at least one will have either a real or faked injury).

3. Cops use pepper spray = note the reaction in this very thread.

So, how do you propose to just "take them away"? Fire hoses? We all know how well that went over back in the 1950's and 60's...

[F3SS]

I was going to respond to randyman but traveling man took the words right out of my mouth. Here's to you traveller

[Mr_Snstr]

It is a shame that we don't have a "thumbs up" function here.

If you look at the "demands" (the first numbered list), it is clear that they want a Socialist anarchy with NOBODY in charge (because they might be seen as evil overseers), and they don't want anything close to capitalism. Then, if you look at their final "demand" - it is clear that they don't want to believe in any sort of property ownership or property law.

Sorry, while I might agree with a few of their ideas (emphasis on "FEW"), their ideas would put the US and entire industrialized and first world nation back into the stone age.

They REALLY need to start taking lessons from The Palestinian Authority on how to manipulate the media (like they try, like with the UC Davis cops) - and learn how to spin a story. They are getting their collective butts handed to them by the people they SHOULD be trying to control.

I sincerly hope that write-up ninjadude posted was made to discredit protesters and not what got allot of them on-board. Or made to keep sane and educated people from joining in, in which case that's a shame cause it probably worked.

"2.If you agree that a person is entitled to the sweat of their brows, that being talented at management should not entitle others to act like overseers and overlords, that all workers should have the right to engage in decisions, democratically, then you might be one of us."

This one actually made me laugh. Good luck with that business model, really, it would actually be cool if it worked; but I would be surprised if it were the least bit functional.

I cringe everytime I hear the word "democracy". A short trip through history would reveal that democracies are awful, dysfunctional, and really only a transitional state of organization. Generally transitioning in the direction of something more awful, but oppressively functional.

I'll take a talented overlord over the mob any day.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Mr_Snstr

[ninjadude]

If you look at the "demands" (the first numbered list), it is clear that they want a Socialist anarchy with NOBODY in charge (because they might be seen as evil overseers), and they don't want anything close to capitalism. Then, if you look at their final "demand" - it is clear that they don't want to believe in any sort of property ownership or property law.

No. Those came from the New York Working Group. Not OWS.

[F3SS]

No. Those came from the New York Working Group. Not OWS.

You put that list up because someone asked to hear the demands straight from the horses(ows) mouth. Everytime someone doesn't like what ows has to say you say it isn't them. But you put that list up saying it was from ows. It came right from the ows wiki page which you have deemed the one true source of the ows definition and ideals. You are so confused.

[ninjadude]

You put that list up because someone asked to hear the demands straight from the horses(ows) mouth. Everytime someone doesn't like what ows has to say you say it isn't them. But you put that list up saying it was from ows. It came right from the ows wiki page which you have deemed the one true source of the ows definition and ideals. You are so confused.

My mistake. There have been those that think the NYWG demands are OWS. After going back to my original post of that information, I guess I disagree with your characterization of them.Socialism is not anarchy. And they are not advocating it.

Edited November 24, 2011 by ninjadude

[Mr_Snstr]

My mistake. There have been those that think the NYWG demands are OWS. After going back to my original post of that information, I guess I disagree with your characterization of them.Socialism is not anarchy. And they are not advocating it.

Socialism isn't anarchy no, but travelling man said a "Socialist Anarchy", which is an existing concept of sorts. NYWG certainly isn't advocating that by name, but they sure are advocating some flavor of it, whether they realize it or not.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Mr_Snstr

[Travelling Man]

When a person or group advocates that everyone make the same wage, this is Socialism. When a person or group advocates that there are no people in charge of the masses, this is Anarchy. This group (NYWG) is advocating Socialist Anarchy.

Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if a person that has no appreciation of the law attempted to do something to one of the people that advocate for this stuff... I wonder how quickly they would be calling the police and a lawyer...

And now they are advocating blockading places of business on Black Friday to hurt "The Man." It's going to be a shame when they put thousands of workers out of work. Perhaps they believe that this will garner them some sympathy.

One word: NOT!

[ninjadude]

Socialism isn't anarchy no, but travelling man said a "Socialist Anarchy", which is an existing concept of sorts.

Thanks. Learn something new everyday. I automatically discount "anarchists" of any flavor as idiots. Maybe I should learn more about them.

[Mr_Snstr]

Thanks. Learn something new everyday. I automatically discount "anarchists" of any flavor as idiots. Maybe I should learn more about them.

Anarchy in an organizational sense just means one with lack of recognized authority(IE no overlords); though it doesn't necessarily imply disorder. A system based primarily on anarchy could work well; provided everyone in it was well educated, had an abundance of foresight and ability to reason, adhered to the same set of strong values, and all had impecable moral character.

The "Anarchist" you're probably refering to are the ones who seem to crop up whenever there is a major riot anywhere in the world, and are generally known to sport the "A" symbol whilst smashing and burning things. This imo has little if anything to do with the word anarchy when used in the political organizational context.

Either that or people who do in fact advocate a leaderless enforcementless society; but have failed to realize that if the conditions I mentioned in my first paragraph aren't met, that it'd probably be pretty awful.

A "Socialist Anarchy" is essentially a socialist society, but with no recognized leadership to some degree.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Mr_Snstr

[ninjadude]

provided everyone in it was well educated

This would be impossible in the US as everyone is most certainly not well educated.