EU irked by Turkish adultery law

[Talon]

Ofcourse it does equate to terrorists being on mainland Spain, because as soon as they arrive to Ceuta they are on Spanish mainland. All they have to do then is buy a ticket to the next boat, which will take them to spain in 15-20 minutes.

It's like saying that being on the European side of Turkey is not like being on mainland Turkey because you have to cross the Dardanels first 

On boats. They have to get there by boats. Security checks can be made on boats. It’s not my fault if the Spanish don’t

EDIT: it gets even better  ... there's another city in North Africa which is a Spanish territory, called Melilla. Here's what Wikipedia has to say about it:

"There is considerable pressure by African refugees to enter Melilla, a part of the European Union. The border is secured by a three-meter-tall double fence and watch towers, yet refugees regularly manage to cross it illegally."

Makes you wonder about EU's double standards when it comes to the Israeli fence, doesn't it? 

How? The territory is Spanish, nobody seems to care about it, we’re not in there with an army killing people over it

The fact is that Israeli Ashkenazic Jews are comming from all over Europe, with cultures from those countries, and thus the union of us all in one community actually unites all of Europe. Show me any country in Europe which accomplished that.

Celtic culture links Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Ulster, parts of England, France and Spain. And if you want to further, you should unit the entire west as much of populations Canada, Australia and Canada can be linked to Celtic countries. ohhhhh

What you should be saying is, you have ties which all countries of Europe, not you unite them. Being European unites us, not having a Jewish minority.

Also Talon you have a tendency to reply to half-sentences.

This is nothing short of damagogue.

.... I reply in half-sentences.... and so I'm Demagogic... as in a Cult leader .... i seeee

If you want people to take you seriously (not on this subject, but in general), you should reply to sentence in it's true, complete, context.

And if you want people to take you serious, don't insult them

Israel is tied both economically, and socialy, to Western Europe.

So I said, Cold war

Laugh as hard as you want, but the fact that Israel, which as you say doesn't belong to Europe, accomplished so much in European sport and European culture, says something.

I was making a joke.... deal with it.

Also again you dropped the issues that Israel left parties are members of an the Political of European Socialists, and that 20% of Israelis are EU citizens, and the Israel has an observer status in the Council of Europe, and that Israel is due to join the EEA... but why let facts confuse you, eh? 

Dropped the issue? Dude, I didn't mention it because there is nothing to debate. What you want me to do? Find evidence to deny it?

Anyway, I still don't want Turkey and Israel in the EU, I don't really care what links you have If we come back through in 15 years and things have become less choatic in the ME maybe I'll change my opinion.

(And no, I don't imply anything in this, just wanted to know what you people think).

NO you don't You're leading them into a trap, asking them to post so you can attack their case peice by peice, particualry since you disable the main issue here (Palastine in the opening posts).

The fact is that Israel is in violation at the moment of more EU mandates and human rights issues, and its terrorist issue (which would then involve the EU should you join) does not make it a good member at that time.

[Erikl]

On boats. They have to get there by boats. Security checks can be made on boats. It’s not my fault if the Spanish don’t

Talon, you simply fail to see that not only Spain has a territory in the middle-east (as North Africa is considered the middle-east for all that is count), and terrorists are free to enter Spain, just as they are free to enter Israel (or Turkey).

Hell - as soon as they enter Ceuta, they could be on their way to London, as there are no checkpoints in EU territory.

Deal with it .

How? The territory is Spanish, nobody seems to care about it, we’re not in there with an army killing people over it

First of all, Morocco claims it's an illegal occupation (rings a familiar sound, doesn't it? ), a leftover from Spanish colonialism.

Secondly, the fact that you didn't know that the EU is a colonial orgonization till only yesterday, doesn't mean that nobody cares for it - the Moroccans certainly do.

And third, Israeli fence doesn't kill people (and we are talking here about the fence), it saves lives. It's job is simply to prevent terrorists from hurting Israelis, and it's doing a great job.

Anyhow, the EU built a fence to stop terrorists, but to stop unarmed civilians, who simply wish to work, and find better life.

Where is all that liberal mentality and high moral that the EU lectures the world, eh?

Double standards anyone?

Celtic culture links Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Ulster, parts of England, France and Spain. tongue.gif And if you want to further, you should unit the entire west as much of populations Canada, Australia and Canada can be linked to Celtic countries. ohhhhh

Errmm... not really. The spanish no longer hold to that culture, also almost all the french (expect a tiny bit of them in brittany) no longer have a celtic culture, and Australia and Canada have an anglo-saxon culture instead of a celtic one.

What you should be saying is, you have ties which all countries of Europe, not you unite them. Being European unites us, not having a Jewish minority.

No, what I said, and still saying, is that because Jews came from all over Europe, with the cultures of those countries (for example, Russian Jews having Russian culture, British Jews having a British culture, French Jews having a french culture etc.), and became one people in Israel. Thus, Israel unites all those cultures, wether you like it or not.

.... I reply in half-sentences.... and so I'm Demagogic... as in a Cult leader .... i seeee

No, you reply TO half sentences, taking those parts out of context, and twist them to fit youre own claims and agendas.

This is, sir, nothing short of damagogue.

And if you want people to take you serious, don't insult them

Considering that you twist my words, put them out of context, and reply to them damagogically... calling you a damagogue isn't an insult, it's stating an existing fact .

Dropped the issue? Dude, I didn't mention it because there is nothing to debate. What you want me to do? Find evidence to deny it?

No, I want you to give me an unest and rational answer, for why you don't want to see Israel in the EU.

I gave the reasons for why Israel shouldn't join (at least today), and the fact that you didn't refute those reasons shows that they are indeed rational.

On the hand, you didn't answer rationally for why you don't want Israel to be part of the EU.

I speciffically said that we should ignore the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, because it's pretty obvious that the EU will never accept a country in a conflict.

If we come back through in 15 years and things have become less choatic in the ME maybe I'll change my opinion.

This is exactly what I asked in the beginning. If Israel wasn't in any conflict, would you think it has a place in the EU.

So from the quote above, I take it youre answer is "yes"?

Wasn't it much simplier for everyone if you read my question more carefully?

NO you don't tongue.gif You're leading them into a trap, asking them to post so you can attack their case peice by peice, particualry since you disable the main issue here (Palastine in the opening posts).

No, I only "attacked" youre answer because it made no sence. Youre reasons made no sence.

I disabled the main issue because it's pretty obvious the EU will never accept a country which is in conflict (this is also the main reason for why non of the ex-Yugoslav countries could have joined, even if they did have strong economies).

Can't you see behind the conflict?

I mean, I live in the midst of it, and even I can see behind it.

Or that everything about Israel reminds you of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

The fact is that Israel is in violation at the moment of more EU mandates and human rights issues

As I stated before, many EU states are in violation of EU mandates themselves ...

and its terrorist issue (which would then involve the EU should you join) does not make it a good member at that time.

Again, I ask you to look behind the current conflict.

Let's say that it is over.

There Israel is no longer in a conflict with the Palestinians.

What will be youre answer then?

[wunarmdscissor]

i totally disagree that israel links europe together erikl.

Come on i think your deluding yoursleve here.

Of all the great achievments europeans have made in their own countries and world achievments not many would have been jewish or have israelis descent.

We are europeans and the vast vast majprity are NOT jewish , so you do not link us.

There are the same minorities in all european countries and they are NOT what links us either.

[Erikl]

i totally disagree that israel links europe together erikl.

Come on i think your deluding yoursleve here.

Of all the great achievments europeans have made in their  own countries and world achievments not many would have been jewish or have israelis descent.

We are europeans and the vast vast majprity are NOT jewish , so you do not link us.

There are the same minorities in all european countries and they are NOT what links us either.

272504[/snapback]

You misunderstood me - I don't intend to say that all Europeans are Jews. Not at all. That would be just stupid thing to say.

What I am saying is that the Jews, since the 19th century, have become an integral part of European society (before that they were closed in gettoes, and most of them were religious anyhow) and culture, and thus adopted European culture.

After they arrived to Israel, those cultures mixed together, and thus Israel mixes cultures from every country that had Jews in it.

For example, french Jews, which adopted french culture, brough a french element to Israeli culture.

British Jews brought british culture to Israel.

Russian Jews brought Russian culture.

Hungarian Jews brought hungarian culture.

You see what I'm saying?

Ofcourse there is also the Jewish cultural element in all those Jews, but they also were an integral part of their country's society, untill that society rejected them, and they came to realise that they will only be safe in their historicall homeland, Israel.

[Talon]

Talon, you simply fail to see that not only Spain has a territory in the middle-east (as North Africa is considered the middle-east for all that is count), and terrorists are free to enter Spain, just as they are free to enter Israel (or Turkey).

Hell - as soon as they enter Ceuta, they could be on their way to London, as there are no checkpoints in EU territory.

Deal with it  .

You have terrorist blowing places up, do you just ‘deal with it’, no I bet you complain and want change. If am to ‘deal with’ this, then you ‘deal with’ that.

First of all, Morocco claims it's an illegal occupation (rings a familiar sound, doesn't it?  ), a leftover from Spanish colonialism.

Secondly, the fact that you didn't know that the EU is a colonial orgonization till only yesterday, doesn't mean that nobody cares for it - the Moroccans certainly do.

Yes, I kind of guessed there would be such feeling, however you don’t hear about refugee camps being knocked over by tanks. You’re completely missing my points.

Where is all that liberal mentality and high moral that the EU lectures the world, eh? 

Double standards anyone? 

Double standards? If Spain was killing civilians then you here you would hear me complain if you post the article. You’re making up your paranoid fantasy that Europe is out to get you as you go along. Spain and Isreal are nowhere near comparable.

Errmm... not really. The spanish no longer hold to that culture, also almost all the french (expect a tiny bit of them in brittany) no longer have a celtic culture, and Australia and Canada have an anglo-saxon culture instead of a celtic one.

Exactly we’re a minority… just like you, so why do you unite Europe and we don’t?! If you wanna talk about Anglo-Saxons then fine then, the German unites Europe.

And your actually way off with the Spannish, Gallita actually has its own language and the native culture is more comparable with Ireland than the rest of Spain. Anyway the celts occupied Europe for a few thousand years, all western nations are going to have elements of the culture in them whether they know it or not.

No, what I said, and still saying, is that because Jews came from all over Europe, with the cultures of those countries (for example, Russian Jews having Russian culture, British Jews having a British culture, French Jews having a french culture etc.), and became one people in Israel. Thus, Israel unites all those cultures, wether you like it or not.

And you just said the Celtic cultures and disappeared and the ethnic Celts have adopted the native culture… what argument are you making here?! If anything all your saying is Israel has no culture of its own and is just a blend of everyone else’s, which does not count as uniting all of them, you forget Europe has thousands of years worth of culture before your culture even existed, and I’m probably not alone in feeling insulted by your claim that your country (which is only 60 years old) someone bonds together as if we couldn’t do it on our own.

No, you reply TO half sentences, taking those parts out of context, and twist them to fit youre own claims and agendas.

This is, sir, nothing short of damagogue.

Oh stop insulting people. If you don't want me to reply to your posts, don't reply to me to begin with.

Considering that you twist my words, put them out of context, and reply to them damagogically... calling you a damagogue isn't an insult, it's stating an existing fact

And your Paranoid

No, I want you to give me an unest and rational answer, for why you don't want to see Israel in the EU.

I’ve given you an honest answer why I don’t want it in the EU, its your problem if you don’t accept it. And just because you don't accept it doesn’t make it any less honest. What you think I don’t want you in it for, think of I’m part of anti-Semitic conspiracy?

I gave the reasons for why Israel shouldn't join (at least today), and the fact that you didn't refute those reasons shows that they are indeed rational.

I have seen nothing to change my mind own sharing a border with you. Be a trade partner if you want, play European football, and have it listed on a map, I don’t care.

I speciffically said that we should ignore the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, because it's pretty obvious that the EU will never accept a country in a conflict.

Exactly, which is my biggest issue, your making all these arguments, and then saying ‘by-the-way you can’t make your arguments, we’re ignoring them for now’.

This is exactly what I asked in the beginning. If Israel wasn't in any conflict, would you think it has a place in the EU.

We’d have to see what your society is like after the Palestine issue will you still have terrorists or not etc etc.

Wasn't it much simplier for everyone if you read my question more carefully?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I've already stated some issues that one thing to do with Palastine. However the fact that it is an issue means no answer can be made by by prending it does. What are we supposed to, 'imagine' what an Isreal without the Palastine issue might look like?

No, I only "attacked" youre answer because it made no sence. Youre reasons made no sence.

Dude, no sense? How many ways can I say this, as far as I’m concerned South-East Europe ends with Greece, and does not include Israel and Turkey, which as far as I’m concerned are part of Africa and Asia respectively. I don’t care about your cultural thinks, you might as well claim America and Australia are European because of the majority of the populations have European ancestors.

If you can’t accept the fact that I don’t want a yet another border with the Middle East.

If you can’t accept that I don’t want a state in conflict with its neighbour.

If you can’t accept I don’t want a state that might lower Europe’s image in Asia.

Then just accept the fact that when I look at a map of the world, I don’t see Israel as part of the continent.

If can’t accept an answer you don’t want to hear without complained then you shouldn’t have asked the first place.

[Erikl]

Yes, I kind of guessed there would be such feeling, however you don’t hear about refugee camps being knocked over by tanks. You’re completely missing my points.

No, I don't hear about refugee camps blowing up in Ceuta or Melilla, but I do hear about 4,000 refugees dead because of Spanish policy, and about 6,000 Spanish soldiers stationed in those cities (for example - Spain sent only 1,300 soldiers to Iraq, and this caused a regime changed in Spain).

For example, look at this quote from the wiki-article about the "Ceuta barrier":

"Construction of the £200 million razor-wire barrier was financed by the European Union.

Morocco has objected to the construction of the barrier, as it considers Ceuta to be occupied Moroccan land. Critics have also implicated the barrier in the drowning deaths of at least 4,000 people who have died trying to cross the straits of Gibraltar to enter Spain.".

Double standards? If Spain was killing civilians then you here you would hear me complain if you post the article. You’re making up your paranoid fantasy that Europe is out to get you as you go along. Spain and Isreal are nowhere near comparable.

As I said - 4,000 refugees are dead becuase of the fence built with EU tax money.

Anyhow - I was talking about the actually building of seperation fences, which the EU seem to attack Israel over it. The Israeli fence doesn't kill Palestinians. So the issue here is not the death of palestinian terrorists, but the building of walls. The EU goes and attack Israel on a security fence which is built to save Israeli lives against armed Palestinian terrorists.

From where I stand, the EU protest against the security fence is like saying "we rather see Palestinians getting on time to work, than see Israelis not exploding in busses and streets".

It is either EU politicians are extremely stupid, and don't understand the purpose of the security fence, or that they care more for Palestinians having a job than Israelis living.

And in top of all this - the EU built a seperation wall on an occupied Moroccan land, not to defend itself from terrorists, but to keep immigrants from working in it's territory. Can't you see the hypocricy?!

As to youre alligations of me being paranoid - you can sing it all day, but you have no proof of it (and please read the followings before responding only to this sentence...).

Jews have been persecuted in Europe for the last 2,000.

Only 60 years ago, Europe (except for the UK and Denmark) genocided it's Jewish population, so we left Europe to our original homeland.

Now, Europe is hurting Israel politically, by pulling out sanctions, funding weapons of mass Jihad against Israelis, etc.

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU WERE AN ISRAELI?

My mother's family originally came from Poland. Then the Poles banished them (along with the rest of it's Jewish population) to Russian territory. Then the Russians did pogroms in it's Jews, causing many of them to flee Russia. Then my mother's family had to go to Moldovia. Then, because of pogroms in the beginning of the 20th century, they had to go to Bucharest (Romania). Then the Nazis came and together with the local Romanian population, 400,000 Romanian Jews were liquified in Aushwitz. My grandfather, which was an athlete, was sent to a labout camp in Transtertaria (Ukraine), were he suffered from inflammation in his legs to the rest of his life. My grandmother's family was rounded up and sent to Aushwitz. Then, after the Nazis went, they were mistreated by the Communist regime in Romania, and even though my grandfather was a leading party member, he was banished out of Romania, his property stolen by the government, and his citizenship taken.

And now the EU stabs Israel in the back by politically harming us and funding Palestinian terrorism. (EUFUNDING.ORG) .

You can call it paranoia as long as you want - but you'll have to refute my claims.

Untill you do that, remember that anytime a suicide bomber explode in a buss killing many children, he was funded by youre tax money.

If anything all your saying is Israel has no culture of its own and is just a blend of everyone else’s

No, what I am saying is that Jews from Europe came here with European culture ,together with their Jewish culture.

For example, would you consider a british Jew to have only British culture, or also a Jewish culture?

I would consider him having both, just as you have both Scottish culture and British culture.

Now imagine that there is a russian Jew exactly like that british Jew, which has both Russian culture and Jewish culture.

Now imagine that they both immigrate to Israel. And they get marry. Their child will be culturally influenced by Russian and British culture. Most likley he will speak both english and russia (and ofcourse Hebrew) as it's native tounge.

He will read english literature and russian literature while he is growing.

So the result is that he will have a mixed culture, uniting both the Russian and the British culture, alongside his 3,300 years' old Jewish culture.

you forget Europe has thousands of years worth of culture before your culture even existed

LOL

Best joke I've heared today!

Last time I checked, Jews were reading, writting, building temples, writting poetry and fighting with something else but rocks and stones already 3,300 years ago.

Human civilization started in the middle-east, not in Europe.

(ps - no, I'm not petronising here, but just responded the same way you did).

How many ways can I say this, as far as I’m concerned South-East Europe ends with Greece, and does not include Israel and Turkey, which as far as I’m concerned are part of Africa and Asia respectively.

First of all, both Israel and Turkey are in Asia (Israel most certainly isn't part of Africa).

And the EU doesn't end in Greece - it includes Cyprus, which is in Asia (although it is an Island, it is more to the east than Turkey, and is considered Asia).

The reason Cyprus can be considered part of Europe though, is that civilizationally (western civilization), culturally and linguistically it is closer to Europe.

Unless you think Israel is closer to Arab civilization than European and western one, I don't see how Cyprus is closer to Europe than Israel is.

Even Malta, which it's official language is Maltese - a North African Arabic dialect (or in short - arabic with heavy italian influence), a semitic language, is now part of Europe.

Anyway, youre view on the subject of Israel and the EU clear.

You are willing to consider Israel joinning the EU as long as it has peace.

OK.

Now, can we please pass the question to another member (or continue our disscusion over the PM)?

Edited September 20, 2004 by Erikl

[Talon]

Critics have also implicated the barrier in the drowning deaths of at least 4,000 people who have died trying to cross the straits of Gibraltar to enter Spain.".

Illegal immigrants who shouldn’t have been trying to enter Spain illegally (I know that sounds harsh, but its the truth)

Anyhow - I was talking about the actually building of seperation fences, which the EU seem to attack Israel over it.

Dude I really don’t care about fences or walls, so long as it only includes Israeli territory and not Palestinian. Hell I don’t care if the UN personally built a wall around the entire Middle East to keep the terrorists in, have another Iron Curtain.

And in top of all this - the EU built a seperation wall on an occupied Moroccan land, not to defend itself from terrorists, but to keep immigrants from working in it's territory.

And if Spain wants a big wall to keep illegal immigrants out, who cares. Anyway I find it funny you talk about Occupied Moroccan land when the IDF as in Palestine (before you post, I'm not writting that to spark another IDF debate, we've been, done that, everyone knows the score ).

As to youre alligations of me being paranoid - you can sing it all day, but you have no proof of it (and please read the followings before responding only to this sentence...).

Jews have been persecuted in Europe for the last 2,000.

Only 60 years ago, Europe (except for the UK and Denmark) genocided it's Jewish population, so we left Europe to our original homeland.

Now, Europe is hurting Israel politically, by pulling out sanctions, funding weapons of mass Jihad against Israelis, etc.

Dude, the BNP wins a local by-election which is barely noticed and your worried their going to win the next election, your convinced France, Germany and Russia are going fascist; you believe the Red Cross and the UN are aiding Palestinian terrorists; and that Europe is out to get you.

That’s paranoia

Anyway, you keep playing the race card of 2000 years and the holocaust. Yes both were terrible, however a lot of people were persecuted for thousands of years and many groups lost huge populations over history (if keep to WW2 then Russia lost 20 million people) and Maoist China’s has killed what between 35-65 million of its own people. Those events where terrible yes, but this is now, not 60 years ago, and currently in the world there are civil wars in Africa, people starving in China, people being brainwashed into not even knowing their second-class citizens in North Korea, thousands of civilians dead in Iraq etc etc. So no matter what in the past, no matter how terrible, please stop constantly placing the race card, because at the moment in the world there are places where such evils are still occurring.

Its actually something we should all realise, that no matter how bad things are in our nations, things could be much much worse.

Anyway if Europe is so bad why would you want to join

P.S. Ireland didn't, bet Switerland didn't, and a lot of those who did only did it because they were under Nazi occupation.

I would consider him having both, just as you have both Scottish culture and British culture.

I have NO British culture.

LOL   

Best joke I've heared today!

Last time I checked, Jews were reading, writting, building temples, writting poetry and fighting with something else but rocks and stones already 3,300 years ago. 

Human civilization started in the middle-east, not in Europe. 

(ps - no, I'm not petronising here, but just responded the same way you did).

I’ll agree you’re post is correct, that was a slip on my part, ‘culture’ isn’t actually the word I meant, I meant ‘country’. As evidence of this I point out in the rest of the sentence I talk about Israeli’s age not Judaism.

I could at this point give you a lecture on the pot calling the kettle black over accusing me of answering half-sentences. But I’m, above that kind of thing.

Anyway, if we go with my argument on country, the Celts controlled western Europe about 5,000 years ago, then the Romans pushed us to the sea, and brought in the German tribes to settle from the East into France, England etc. Thus forming the Celtic cultures of the far west, the majority German, and then the Mediterranean races in Spain, Italy etc. This set culture thousands of years before Israel appeared. If we wish to talk of modern civilisations, yes you could bring in discussions on Mesopotamia and its knock on effects on later European empires and nations,and yes if you wanted to be technical you could claim the Kingdom of Israel was set up in 3500 BC when the Celts were still in lion cloths and only just becoming the first European race to enter its iron age. However, since most European nations and most cultures were set down by the movements of the Roman Empire I’m going to go with that event.

First of all, both Israel and Turkey are in Asia (Israel most certainly isn't part of Africa).

And the EU doesn't end in Greece - it includes Cyprus, which is in Asia (although it is an Island, it is more to the east than Turkey, and is considered Asia).

Yeah, I always considered Israel Asian too, Africa and Asia being spit by the Red Sea. I actually called it part of Africa because I got the impression you were offended at being called Asian. My mistake

As for Cyprus I’m talking about mainland, yes, I know, Turkey is closer to us than it, however I’m not interested in debating the partisanship of Mediterranean Island.

As for Malta is close proximity to Sicily as well as being stuck in the middle of Mediterranean as far I’m concerned makes it European no matter what its language.

My issue rather is with the mainland, as you point out Israel and Turkey are in Asia, hence not European. If your let in, then we might as well tell Syria and Lebanon which also have borders with the Mediterranean that they can join once they’ve sorted out their human rights problems. Then lets have the new Iraq as well, why not, we have some parts of the ME, why stop there.

Anyway, youre view on the subject of Israel and the EU clear.

You are willing to consider Israel joinning the EU as long as it has peace.

OK. 

No. As I said I don’t consider you part of Europe.

Maybe in the future a Greater Europe will appear emerge to contain you, but for now I’m content with a lesser Europe whose borders end with the opposite side of the Mediterranean, the Sea of Marmara (I am of course ignoring Turkey’s foothold into Europe next to Greece and Bulgaria), and then the border with Russia in the East. A greater Europe would of course include Russia as technically Europe’s eastern border with Asia is the Ural mountains and the Black and Caspian Seas. Isreal certainly has the potential to be part of greater Europe, in time, but at the moment lesser Europe must be unified and sorted out, first off dealing with the Balkans.

Anyway this is a subjective issue, its all based on personal opinion. Whether you or I want Israel or Turkey in Europe isn’t going to effect the outcome.

Now, can we please pass the question to another member (or continue our disscusion over the PM)?

No problem, I'm finsihed here.

Edited September 21, 2004 by Talon S.

[wunarmdscissor]

I have NO British culture. 

NOw talon come on everything in our lives in this country is down to our BRITISH heriitage , even our very freeedom.

Dont condemn being british so easily.

[Erikl]

Dude, the BNP wins a local by-election which is barely noticed and your worried their going to win the next election, your convinced France, Germany and Russia are going fascist; you believe the Red Cross and the UN are aiding Palestinian terrorists; and that Europe is out to get you.

That’s paranoia

First of all, I wasn't worry that they are going to win next elections - I simply asked what their victory in those elections meant in British election system, because I'm not familiar with all those "East-London", "West-London" etc. election areas.

I've never said that France or Germany are going fascist - stop putting words in my mouth.

I said that I'm not surprised at all that the neo-Nazi party and the Communist party scored high in Eastern Germany - and I gave a reasonable explanation for this, an explanation which you seem to agree with.

As for france - I said they are going through Islamization, not fascism, and that they've become an anti-Semitic country that Jews are no longer able to live safely.

With a population of more than 10% muslim, and the fact that muslims population growth in france is three times more than that of non-muslims french, there is a little doubt that in 20-30 years about 40% of the french would be muslims.

Also, with all the reports about the violence against Jews in france - this again is not paranoia, but hard facts.

The popularity of neo-Nazism in Russia is well known and feared not only by me but most experts of russia in the west as well as in russia itself.

If I'm not mistaken, at least two seperate articles about the rise of neo-Nazism in Russia were put here only months ago.

Here's what wikipedia as to say about neo-Nazism in Russia:

"As of 2004, the Russian neo-Nazis constitute one of the greatest potential threats to the political and social stability in Russia. Whereas Vladimir Putin's government seems to keep them in check, if the economic and social conditions in the country will deteriorate significantly in the future, an attempted neo-Nazi rebellion can well be on the horizon."

"you believe the Red Cross and the UN are aiding Palestinian terrorists"

I've put here several articles from credible sources about Red Corss's ambulances used to transport palestinian terrorists to Israel.

I've never said the UN is aiding Palestinian terrorists - I said that the UN is largely anti-Israeli due to a very high proportion of it's members represented by muslim or arab countries, known by even the most ignorant of people to be anti-Israeli.

Also past resolutions passed by the UN due to this fact are well known and remembered - for example the resolution that equated Zionism to racism (which was cancelled 15 years later, but nevertheless was passed due to soviet and muslim majority in the UN).

As for "Europe comming to get you" - I've never said that too.

What I did say, is that Europe is biased against Israel (which can easily be proven by a short poll among this site's European members about Israel), and that here in Israel we feel that after Europe persecuted us for nearly 2,000 years, it knows hurt us politically and diplomatically when we left Europe and returned to our original homeland.

Again you put words in my mouth and damagogically make it look as if it's parnoia. But that won't help you, because everything I put here is backed with articles and credible sources. You, however, never ever even tried to refute those claims. You always pull out the paranoid card whenever youre out of arguments.

Anyway, you keep playing the race card of 2000 years and the holocaust.

Dude, those 2,000 years are anything but over.

True, most Jews are now safe and not suffering from persecution, but that's only thanks for the re-creation of an independant Jewish state out of Europe.

60 years ago, Europe's Jewry was 11 million people.

Today it's less than 1 million.

Also you seem to forget that maybe anti-Semitism was in a comma in western Europe, but it was alive and kicking in eastern Europe, from Eastern Germany to the USSR.

And even today, ONLY 60 years after the Holocaust, anti-Semitism again in back in big time in western Europe (mainly in France).

Yes both were terrible, however a lot of people were persecuted for thousands of years and many groups lost huge populations over history (if keep to WW2 then Russia lost 20 million people) and Maoist China’s has killed what between 35-65 million of its own people.

Dude, besides the Gypsies, can you give me a name of any other European ethnic group that is continent-wide scapegoat of Europe?

You know what - even if you include the gypsies, one could say that they look different (indian-look) and have seperate lives (they are not integrate in European societies) and are new commers ("only" 700 years ago did they arrive to eastern Europe), and so racism and persecution can be explaned as hatred towards people who are different (like the hatred to American Indians in America, or black people in the US, etc.).

But Jews don't look different from their neighbours.

Most of them are secular.

Many of them that have converted to Christianity were persecuted (proving it's not about religion), they were persecuted when they became 100% integrated into European society (Germany of the 20th and 19th century), and when they lived far away from non-Jewish population (pogroms in eastern Europe in Jewish villages).

Also, lessening the holocaust by equating it to the death of 20 million Russian soldiers in WW2, or 30 million deaths in China's civil war, is not that far from denying the holocaust. You are walking on a thin line here...

Anyway if Europe is so bad why would you want to join

I don't want to join - as I said before, I've aleady explained why Israel shouldn't join today.

P.S. Ireland didn't, bet Switerland didn't, and a lot of those who did only did it because they were under Nazi occupation.

What are you talking about? Switerland, even though neutral, was one of the biggest collaborators to the Nazi war machine, storing most of the Third Reich's money.

They also let death trains pass through their territory from north Itally to Poland.

"and a lot of those who did only did it because they were under Nazi occupation"

This excuse could easilly be refuted by the fact that denmark, even though occupied by Germany, saved all it's Jewish population.

And also, except for Poland, rescuing or hidding Jews wasn't punishable by death in any country occupied.

And as for "Nazi occupation" - most countries that the Nazis occupied were rulled by local fascists not Germans, and had a big popularity among the local people. One can give as an example the Vichy government in France, the Ustashe regime in Croatia, Slovakia, etc.

Nazi collaborators were very common during the holocaust. As a matter of fact, the Nazis could never have succeeded in killing so many if it weren't for the huge help they got from the local populations.

If your let in, then we might as well tell Syria and Lebanon which also have borders with the Mediterranean that they can join once they’ve sorted out their human rights problems. Then lets have the new Iraq as well, why not, we have some parts of the ME, why stop there.

Oh but the difference is that Syria, Lebanon and Iraq have no connection to Europe, not in culture, civilization or history.

Syria, Lebanon and Iraq are part of the Arab world.

They share a common Arab culture, language, and civilization.

Just like Cyprus's membership isn't based on geography, but on culture, civilization, language etc., so does Israel connection to Europe.