Retinal Scan ID and Dirt Floors.

[jugoso]

Just found out that the government is coming to my daughters school to take fingerprints and her retinal scan for the new ID card. Considering many of the shcools in the outer areas of the city often have dirt floors, cardboard walls and lack even some of the most basic resources, the whole thin just seems kinda weird to me. It may just be the retinal eye scan thing, but it still makes me uncomfortable. It is optional at this point but I can foresee tat changing soon. My wife (who is Mexican) doesn´t have any problem with it but I am more leery about the whole thing. Am I just being paranoid?

[Paracelse]

What type of argument is the government offering to justify retinal scan? Isn't an invasion of privacy?

[Mr_Snstr]

It does seem very weird. I would be leery of it too. I don't think you're being overly paranoid.

Though that says nothing to whether I'm overly paranoid. Therefore we could both be overly paranoid.

[George Ford]

**** THAT ****!

I would keep my kid home for home schooling that day! Seriously, can they force you to make yr kid do that?

[Corp]

I generally brush off most of the claims on these fourms as nothing more than mass paranoid, however this does seem very odd. I'm assuming there's been a build up to this? The government planning this, explaining why they're putting this program into place, etc? Seems like a massive waste of money to use all that tech just to make ID cards. I'd looking into the matter more. Ask the school for more information, check government sources, etc.

[jugoso]

I generally brus off most of the claims on these fourms as nothing more than mass paranoid, however this does seem very odd. I'm assuming there's been a build up to this? The government planning this, explaining why they're putting this program into place, etc? Seems like a massive waste of money to use all that tech just to make ID cards. I'd looking into the matter more. Ask the school for more information, check government sources, etc.

There is a meeting at hher scool in an hour. You can be sure I will be there!

There is an English link about the program.

http://www.renapo.gob.mx/swb/swb/RENAPO/cedi

In terms of a build-up, the first I heard about it was last week. Apparently they showed up at a school with all the equipment and the school knew absolutely nothing about it. Probably te reason for todays info session.

[rashore]

Weird.. I can understand fingerprint and photo of kids, but iris image seems like overkill.

[lightly]

Weird.. I can understand fingerprint and photo of kids, but iris image seems like overkill.

hmm, if this is a nationwide thing... retinal scans of all school children ?, i'd say they can expect a retinal scan system in place fairly soon?

. . . I wonder who will get the contract for the scanners ¿?¿?$¿°

[rashore]

hmm, if this is a nationwide thing... retinal scans of all school children ?, i'd say they can expect a retinal scan system in place fairly soon?

. . . I wonder who will get the contract for the scanners ¿?¿?$¿°

Snort.. that's an excellent question. Fingerprints and photo isn't all that big of a thing, but I bet someone could make quite a bit of bucks on the scanners.

[jugoso]

I had my day for the meeting wrong . It´s mañana.

From the website. these are the supposed benefits:

1. It is an official identification throughout the country and is recognized by Mexican authorities in the country and abroad

2. Avoid identity theft of minors

3. provides easy access to health services, education, recreation and culture, reducing the submission of several documents

4. Lets you know quickly who are the parents or guardians of minors, because their names also appear.

OK....so the need for a retinal scan??

FAQ´s

http://www.renapo.gob.mx/swb/swb/RENAPO/FaqCEDI

Edited December 7, 2011 by jugoso

[Grey14]

What is the big deal about a iris scan? It is basicaly the same thing a a fingerprint. You all have no problems with the fingerprint aspect then why have issue with an iris scan. Some advantages an iris scan.

courtesy of wiki

It is an internal organ that is well protected against damage and wear by a highly transparent and sensitive membrane (the cornea). This distinguishes it from fingerprints, which can be difficult to recognize after years of certain types of manual labor.

The iris has a fine texture that—like fingerprints—is determined randomly during embryonic gestation. Like the fingerprint, it is very hard (if not impossible) to prove that the iris is unique. However, there are so many factors that go into the formation of these textures (the iris and fingerprint) that the chance of false matches for either is extremely low. Even genetically identical individuals have completely independent iris textures.

An iris scan is similar to taking a photograph and can be performed from about 10 cm to a few meters away. There is no need for the person being identified to touch any equipment that has recently been touched by a stranger, thereby eliminating an objection that has been raised in some cultures against fingerprint scanners, where a finger has to touch a surface, or retinal scanning, where the eye must be brought very close to an eyepiece (like looking into a microscope).

While there are some medical and surgical procedures that can affect the colour and overall shape of the iris, the fine texture remains remarkably stable over many decades. Some iris identifications have succeeded over a period of about 30 years.

This is just an added way beyond the finger print to be able to identify you and prove who you are.

[jugoso]

What is the big deal about a iris scan? It is basicaly the same thing a a fingerprint. You all have no problems with the fingerprint aspect then why have issue with an iris scan. Some advantages an iris scan.

courtesy of wiki

It is an internal organ that is well protected against damage and wear by a highly transparent and sensitive membrane (the cornea). This distinguishes it from fingerprints, which can be difficult to recognize after years of certain types of manual labor.

The iris has a fine texture that—like fingerprints—is determined randomly during embryonic gestation. Like the fingerprint, it is very hard (if not impossible) to prove that the iris is unique. However, there are so many factors that go into the formation of these textures (the iris and fingerprint) that the chance of false matches for either is extremely low. Even genetically identical individuals have completely independent iris textures.

An iris scan is similar to taking a photograph and can be performed from about 10 cm to a few meters away. There is no need for the person being identified to touch any equipment that has recently been touched by a stranger, thereby eliminating an objection that has been raised in some cultures against fingerprint scanners, where a finger has to touch a surface, or retinal scanning, where the eye must be brought very close to an eyepiece (like looking into a microscope).

While there are some medical and surgical procedures that can affect the colour and overall shape of the iris, the fine texture remains remarkably stable over many decades. Some iris identifications have succeeded over a period of about 30 years.

This is just an added way beyond the finger print to be able to identify you and prove who you are.

Thanks for pointing out that it is an iris scan and not a retinal one.

I also recognize that it is the iris scan that makes me uneasy. Is it really necessary on top of the fingerprint? If the only reason is that it is needed in case her prints may be worn out after years of manual labour, I´ll take my chances.

The other statement makes me even more uncomfortable:

"An iris scan is similar to taking a photograph and can be performed from about 10 cm to a few meters away. There is no need for the person being identified to touch any equipment that has recently been touched by a stranger, thereby eliminating an objection that has been raised in some cultures against fingerprint scanners, where a finger has to touch a surface, or retinal scanning, where the eye must be brought very close to an eyepiece."

seems pretty bogus to me. Reading between the lines, they can identify you without you even being aware. At least with the fingerprint or retina you are aware you are being identified. Smells like BB to me!

[Grey14]

Thanks for pointing out that it is an iris scan and not a retinal one.

I also recognize that it is the iris scan that makes me uneasy. Is it really necessary on top of the fingerprint? If the only reason is that it is needed in case her prints may be worn out after years of manual labour, I´ll take my chances.

The other statement makes me even more uncomfortable:

"An iris scan is similar to taking a photograph and can be performed from about 10 cm to a few meters away. There is no need for the person being identified to touch any equipment that has recently been touched by a stranger, thereby eliminating an objection that has been raised in some cultures against fingerprint scanners, where a finger has to touch a surface, or retinal scanning, where the eye must be brought very close to an eyepiece."

seems pretty bogus to me. Reading between the lines, they can identify you without you even being aware. At least with the fingerprint or retina you are aware you are being identified. Smells like BB to me!

True this would mean you could be identified from a slight distance, you would still be able to tell if someone scanned you. I mean the guy with the big scanner pointed at your face, hello. We arent quite into the tech of Minority report though i can see your point. However i can also see some situations where this would be an invaluable tool to indentify someone.

[Ashotep]

I wouldn't like it. Give them an inch and they will take a yard, way it usually goes isn't it.

[jugoso]

True this would mean you could be identified from a slight distance, you would still be able to tell if someone scanned you. I mean the guy with the big scanner pointed at your face, hello. We arent quite into the tech of Minority report though i can see your point. However i can also see some situations where this would be an invaluable tool to indentify someone.

an invaluable tool to indentify someone...you mean everyone

I´m sure the technology will be available in the near future if it isn´t already to do so without you being aware. As i pointed out in the OP, Mexico is certainly not on the cutting-ede of hi-technology and this program seems sorely out-of-place . I can´t see the value of having the iris scan other than to be able to identify people in a non-invasive way. This program is definately costing big $$ and has involved some serious planning. I am actually amazed at the quality of the website and the fact that it is also in English!! From everyone I´ve spoken with today, no one has known anything about it.I checked out the website a little more and learned a few more things. It is overseen by

The Undersecretary of Population, Migration and Religious Affairs is responsible for:

Lead population policies, migration, shelter, development of the north border and religious, multi-sectoral in nature.

The country's population planning.

To regulate the migratory flows and the foreigners' stay in the country, the integral and sustainable development of the region of the north border.

Source http://www.renapo.gob.mx/swb/en/RENAPO/subsecretaria

WTF????

[jugoso]

. . . I wonder who will get the contract for the scanners ¿?¿?$¿°

And the winner is......Smartmatic systems with a bid of 299 000 000 476 000 100 pesos.

Checking into these guys doesn´t instill any confidence on my end. They were investigated for 12,000,000US$ in tax evasion and there seemed to be some irreularities with their voting machines used in the Venezuelan election.

There is also controversy over the awarding of the contract as the average of all the tenders was 268 000 000 566 000 112 pesos. By law, any bid more than 10% over the average of all the bids must be automatically rejected and their bid did exceed this (albeit slightly).

Sources: http://eleconomista.com.mx/notas-impreso/politica/2009/11/25/fbi-investigo-smartmatic

http://www.puntomedio.com.mx/noticias/empresa-smartmatic-patito-nego-las-anomalias-2710/

I also found this on youtube which states:

"Biometrics on the move allows confident identification and verification of people in motion via digital video footage, not requiring a cooperative facial picture".

[lightly]

Thanks jugoso, interesting, .. looks like they have offices in eight or nine countries... i $uspect they would be influential enough to lobby for the bills.. to create the markets for their products.

They market voting machines.. biometric scanners .. and transportation systems.

[Fluffybunny]

Seems like a mixup of priorities. Personally I would prefer to take the millions invested in equipment to scan the iris and sell it in order to be able to afford some flooring. Kinda creepy to me...

[xYlvax]

I wouldn't like it. Give them an inch and they will take a yard, way it usually goes isn't it.

Agreed.

This even makes me paranoid, but I don't have kids, so oh well.

[jugoso]

Just read an article today in the paper stating that less than 50% of parents have given consent for the new iris scan ID cards.

It suggests it is due to ignorance on behalf of the parents and lack of knowledge about the program on behalf of the educators. What a joke! They tried to fly this one in under the radar. The first I heard of it was in a little note in my daughter´s homework book saying they were coming in three days to do it. Called the school and they also knew nothing about it. The whole progran has moved at lightening speed for Mexico with very little press. An information session was demanded by parents and school. They sent two people from RENAPO. Neither knew anything about the program. It was really quite sad and a total waste of time. The guy didn´t even bother to mention it was "voluntary" until I asked him straight up. Needless to say, I didn´t sign the form.

The crappy thing is although currently a "voluntary" program, they are making the card mandatory to access other types of services (e.g. passport)

And they aren´t stopping at the children. Hacienda ( Tax Department) is making the ID card compulsory for all business owners in order to do their taxes. Unless they are planning on making tax payment "voluntary" also, there really isn´t any way around it.

I guess I´ll just need to accept that this will become the standard for Identification of ALL people.

According to the website of the National Population Register, the identity card prevents identity theft of minors, providing access to health services, education, recreational and cultural presentation by reducing the number of documents and allows you to quickly know who are parents or guardians of a minor.

http://www.renapo.go...swb/RENAPO/cedi

I´m sorry but I just don´t trust it. It goes on furhter to say:

the information obtained will be protected in the database of the National Personal Identification

Trust that even less!!

Anyway, just thought I´d keep those interested updated. There is little doubt in my mind this program will start to move North (and South) and movement and access to programs will be restricted if you don´t have the card.

http://thelastgringo.com/2011/03/north-american-biometric-ids-coming-soon/

Todays article:

http://www.debate.com.mx/eldebate/movil/Articulomovil.asp?IdArt=12007904&IdCat=6097

Related articles:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/mexico/8275086/Mexico-to-become-first-country-to-use-iris-scans-on-ID-cards.html

http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/03/15/2255250/iris-scan-id-cards-for-children-in-mexico

[Mr Right Wing]

Just found out that the government is coming to my daughters school to take fingerprints and her retinal scan for the new ID card. Considering many of the shcools in the outer areas of the city often have dirt floors, cardboard walls and lack even some of the most basic resources, the whole thin just seems kinda weird to me. It may just be the retinal eye scan thing, but it still makes me uncomfortable. It is optional at this point but I can foresee tat changing soon. My wife (who is Mexican) doesn´t have any problem with it but I am more leery about the whole thing. Am I just being paranoid?

This has benefits.

If the kid knows its fingerprints and retina scan are on file then from a psychological point of view it will put them off committing crimes should they feel the urge too when they are older.

[jugoso]

This has benefits.

If the kid knows its fingerprints and retina scan are on file then from a psychological point of view it will put them off committing crimes should they feel the urge too when they are older.

I´m truly hoping that tyhat won´t be the reason that my daughter chooses to not commit any "crimes". By the time she is age of majority, I wonder how the definition of "crimes" may have expanded.

[Mr Right Wing]

I´m truly hoping that tyhat won´t be the reason that my daughter chooses to not commit any "crimes". By the time she is age of majority, I wonder how the definition of "crimes" may have expanded.

Then its not needed for yours.

It would benefit others though. Maybe it should be compulsary for people brought up in families where one of the parents has a criminal record. It would help keep them on the straight and narrow.

[jugoso]

Then its not needed for yours.

It would benefit others though. Maybe it should be compulsary for people brought up in families where one of the parents has a criminal record. It would help keep them on the straight and narrow.

I´m not sure if you´re familiar with deterrence theory but it runs counter to your suggestion.

It´s already being done to prisoners here and has also effected the amount of bail set for Americans arrested at Occupy Wall Street.

But protesters and their legal advisers were surprised yesterday to learn that the size of their bail was being affected by whether defendants were willing to have the distinctive patterns of their irises photographed and logged into a database.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/03/as_occupy_arres.php

[Mr Right Wing]

I´m not sure if you´re familiar with deterrence theory but it runs counter to your suggestion.

It´s already being done to prisoners here and has also effected the amount of bail set for Americans arrested at Occupy Wall Street.

But protesters and their legal advisers were surprised yesterday to learn that the size of their bail was being affected by whether defendants were willing to have the distinctive patterns of their irises photographed and logged into a database.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/03/as_occupy_arres.php

I know this is controverial but I think the entire human race should be chipped. The chip should have a GPS tracker on it and be capable of transmitting the persons speech.

The legal system could be setup so it requires a court order to access the chips data. Then the police can trace the people near the location of crimes, terrorist acts etc at the times they happened.

End of crime, end of terrorism. If we did it to everybody in Afganistan/Pakistan the war would be over in a month.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Mr Right Wing