questionmark Posted December 14, 2011 Author #126 Share Posted December 14, 2011 The VI's can print article's till the ink runs out. However the markets do not see the latest treaty as the answer to the immediate financial crisis. The ECB has reduced buying bonds, the lending rates are rising hitting a new EU record for them in the Euro. All this time the Pro-euro's are still claiming a victory? I really can't see what their case is? What is the plan? Nobody including the mighty Germany has an answer yet. Sure they have a plan which is effectively closing the doors after the horses have bolted. But what is the immediate answer? Surely we must agree whether we are pro-Europe or Against that the immediate financial problem has not been resolved and markets back up this feeling. The markets are reacting every time somebody in Europe says that they will not implement the US FED revolving door lending system the same way: by selling euros for dollars and pounds. It is better to go to the FED or BoE and get 150% on the capital cost instead of real 7% in the rest of Europe. The problem is the sustainability. That is the point nobody has gotten yet. If a bank goes to the FED and lends at .5%, then turns around, goes to the next counter and buys bonds for 2% that means that they are drying up the resources of the country. No matter what the markets do there will be no unwarranted euro printing by the ECB. And so far all the markets are doing is supporting Europe's economy (maybe not the sovereign debt, but who cares?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skookum Posted December 14, 2011 #127 Share Posted December 14, 2011 As a Brit, I have no gain if the Euro fails, so I ask the question again. Where is the money going to come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted December 14, 2011 Author #128 Share Posted December 14, 2011 As a Brit, I have no gain if the Euro fails, so I ask the question again. Where is the money going to come from? Ever heard that novel system called taxes? Besides that most countries in continental Europe (if we discount Greece and Portugal) has enough marketable assets (gold, shares, bonds, whole companies, etc) to pay off 95% of the debt on the spot. Even Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A rather obscure Bassoon Posted December 14, 2011 #129 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Thought this comment at the bottom by one of the readers was to the point.:- Being on the periphery might not be such a bad thing when the **** really hits the fan. History may well judge Cameron's decision a lot more kindly than the Guardian and the majority of its readers have. I just thank god Ed (the talking horse) Milliband wasn't prime minister. He'd have rolled over & ask merkel to tickle his tummy if he'd been there. I agree, he would have handed the German Bundesbank the keys to Europe and Merkel the power to impose penalties on any Euro economy or maybe even force a single economy Europe wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 14, 2011 #130 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I agree, he would have handed the German Bundesbank the keys to Europe and Merkel the power to impose penalties on any Euro economy or maybe even force a single economy Europe wide. Paranoia writ large. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skookum Posted December 14, 2011 #131 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Ever heard that novel system called taxes? Besides that most countries in continental Europe (if we discount Greece and Portugal) has enough marketable assets (gold, shares, bonds, whole companies, etc) to pay off 95% of the debt on the spot. Even Italy. Makes you wonder why there is a debt crisis with a simple solution as this. Crikey we should be in charge of the EU, we could have wrapped the crisis up in one meeting taking about 1/2 an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted December 14, 2011 Author #132 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Makes you wonder why there is a debt crisis with a simple solution as this. Crikey we should be in charge of the EU, we could have wrapped the crisis up in one meeting taking about 1/2 an hour. Because most of the European countries got into debt by saving their ailing industries to start with (Italy's government for example first bought Fiat and then almost every car company down the line ending with Ferrari, all of which are now part of the Fiat company). Now they are afraid of letting go. But wait, come March and the new stability pact is ratified there will be lots of sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A rather obscure Bassoon Posted December 14, 2011 #133 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Makes you wonder why there is a debt crisis with a simple solution as this. Crikey we should be in charge of the EU, we could have wrapped the crisis up in one meeting taking about 1/2 an hour. Hell yeah Merkel and her pet poodle Sarkozy could have been home the same day,World saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotoutthere Posted December 14, 2011 #134 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Paranoia writ large. Br Cornelius Paranoia, I think not, Afterall it was the granddaddy of Nu Liebore that signed away our rebate. The other day Cameron asked Ed straight out what he would have done in his shoes, & the answer.....we'll never know because there wasn't one. Edited December 14, 2011 by itsnotoutthere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar Posted December 14, 2011 #135 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Wishful thinking, Germany never had a better growth of the per capita product as since the introduction of the Euro: They better keep growing or the Eurozone will go insolvant. even France isn't happy about its trade with Germany. AFP - French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde has said Germany's trade surpluses may be unsustainable for its neighbours in the eurozone, in an interview published Monday. Source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skookum Posted December 14, 2011 #136 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Oh dear even the very bullish BBC has just reported that Ireland think they may have to have a referendum for the treaty, Hungary is not sure about a integrated tax system and Sweden is not sure about financial transaction tax. Hungary, which wavered last week before supporting the treaty, does not want to relinquish control over its corporate tax policy. Meanwhile, Sweden, harbours concerns about the possible inclusion of a financial transactions tax in any agreement. Fredrik Reinfeldt, the Swedish prime minister, holds a minority in the parliament, limiting his room to manoeuvre. Very different stance from the signed and sealed opinion they reported at the weekened. The euro slumped to its lowest level against the dollar since January. The single currency had been losing ground since Friday amid market disappointment at the outcome of the EU summit Looks like it is not over yet. FT Edited December 14, 2011 by skookum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted December 14, 2011 Author #137 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Oh dear even the very bullish BBC has just reported that Ireland think they may have to have a referendum for the treaty, Hungary is not sure about a integrated tax system and Sweden is not sure about financial transaction tax. Very different stance from the signed and sealed opinion they reported at the weekened. Looks like it is not over yet. FT And that the Euro slumped, and as always when the Euro slumps the commodities went right with it that is bad for the eurozone because of...? Be prepared for Opel to sell more cars in Britain than Vauxhall because they will be cheaper to make in Belgium than in Britain. It would be good for some of these "economists" to switch on their brains instead of the glee glands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skookum Posted December 14, 2011 #138 Share Posted December 14, 2011 And that the Euro slumped, and as always when the Euro slumps the commodities went right with it that is bad for the eurozone because of...? Be prepared for Opel to sell more cars in Britain than Vauxhall because they will be cheaper to make in Belgium than in Britain. It would be good for some of these "economists" to switch on their brains instead of the glee glands. Or better if the leaders could come up with a plan that satisfies the market so will all don't sink into insolvency. Regardless of whether we think they are right or wrong, the Eurozone still faces a credit downgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted December 15, 2011 Author #139 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Or better if the leaders could come up with a plan that satisfies the market so will all don't sink into insolvency. Regardless of whether we think they are right or wrong, the Eurozone still faces a credit downgrade. The credit downgrade is about as relevant as the rain next Friday. For month eurozone bonds have been bought exclusively by institutions of the eurozone. Eurozone banks have been lending almost exclusively from the ECB. And except for the Italian bonds yields have been going down. Most foreign investors have sold theirs at big losses (especially the Italian ones) which makes those who bought them on the market very happy and partially explains why the Italian yields are high (why should somebody buy fresh bonds when they can buy used ones with a yield of 10% or better?) and why the Euro is going down (the money is going to some currency with revolving door central bank lending scheme). This is not a game of "who drags the biggest balls over the floor" but who is capable of making most children with the same. And the euro hysteria is bringing most sex to the eurozone. (to put it in a generally understandable language). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar Posted December 15, 2011 #140 Share Posted December 15, 2011 The credit downgrade is about as relevant as the rain next Friday. But rates will still go up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted December 15, 2011 Author #141 Share Posted December 15, 2011 But rates will still go up Or as happened yesterday: Not (excluding Italy, but the reasons there are obvious). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted December 15, 2011 Author #142 Share Posted December 15, 2011 But rates will still go up And as happened today again: Not, Spanish yields went down by 1%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted December 15, 2011 #143 Share Posted December 15, 2011 And as happened today again: Not, Spanish yields went down by 1%. and still the euro is going to fail. the debt is too great. the chance to save the euro was way back in late 2009 early 2010. but they chose to save/preserve the Germany economy at the expense of others and they say we're selfish. i have to say am perplexed after reading Q's post a few above about how easy it is to save the Euro. am surprised he hasnt been headhunted by the ECB or EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted December 15, 2011 Author #144 Share Posted December 15, 2011 and still the euro is going to fail. the debt is too great. the chance to save the euro was way back in late 2009 early 2010. but they chose to save/preserve the Germany economy at the expense of others and they say we're selfish. i have to say am perplexed after reading Q's post a few above about how easy it is to save the Euro. am surprised he hasnt been headhunted by the ECB or EU. Steve, could you please explain to me why it is bad for the eurozone if the Euro falls? I just don't seem to get it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted December 15, 2011 #145 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Steve, could you please explain to me why it is bad for the eurozone if the Euro falls? I just don't seem to get it.... i dont get it either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted December 15, 2011 Author #146 Share Posted December 15, 2011 i dont get it either But you seem to be laughing a lot about something you don't get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted December 15, 2011 #147 Share Posted December 15, 2011 and still the euro is going to fail. the debt is too great. the chance to save the euro was way back in late 2009 early 2010. but they chose to save/preserve the Germany economy at the expense of others and they say we're selfish. Who exactly??... and isn't the German Economy also a Euro Economy? What nakes you think that the German economy needed "saving/preserving" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted December 15, 2011 #148 Share Posted December 15, 2011 But you seem to be laughing a lot about something you don't get. you seem to be posting alot about something you dont get. Who exactly??... and isn't the German Economy also a Euro Economy? What nakes you think that the German economy needed "saving/preserving" who exactly? no wonder your in trouble. you have a currency set up for the germans and run by the germans, when the PIIGS started getting into trouble actions could have been taken to help them countries, and still to this day the germans are running the show. as your mate Q says aslong as germany is exporting why worry about the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted December 15, 2011 #149 Share Posted December 15, 2011 you seem to be posting alot about something you dont get. who exactly? no wonder your in trouble. you have a currency set up for the germans and run by the germans, when the PIIGS started getting into trouble actions could have been taken to help them countries, and still to this day the germans are running the show. as your mate Q says aslong as germany is exporting why worry about the others. Full Marks Steve... for evading any actual answers to the questions I posed. Lets start from the beginning... WHY did Germany need saving / preserving, and what did they need "saving / preserving from exactly?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted December 15, 2011 Author #150 Share Posted December 15, 2011 you seem to be posting alot about something you dont get. who exactly? no wonder your in trouble. you have a currency set up for the germans and run by the germans, when the PIIGS started getting into trouble actions could have been taken to help them countries, and still to this day the germans are running the show. as your mate Q says aslong as germany is exporting why worry about the others. But it is not only Germany and the lower the Euro goes the more chances other brands of the Eurozone have to displace the cheap Asian brands everywhere. Why do you think that all Asian economies are exporting less and most European economies are exporting more (well, yes... there is a slight problem with Britain and Italy...)? Because they have a price advantage now. They calculated their costs expecting the dollar to be $1.50 now it is $1.30 that means that they can reduce their prices by 14%. How dense does one have to be to not see the advantage for the economy of an undervalued currency? And the end is not yet reached because some "economists" think that they are hurting the Eurozone by pushing the value of the Euro down. But please continue, the Europeans will be grateful (at least for the next 20 minutes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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