Britain Suffers as a Bystander to Eurocrisis

[questionmark]

In related news:

The Failure of a Forced Marriage

Was the outcome of the Brussels summit a bad one for the EU? Not at all. The British were never completely dedicated to European unity and the ongoing project of greater fiscal integration is better off without them.

It was to be expected. And now it's official: The British have elected not to join the treaty governing Europe's new financial system. Prime Minister David Cameron refused.

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[A rather obscure Bassoon]

In related news:

Agreed,but will we see the perfect marriage between Sarkozy and Merkel?Will they skip into EU sunset hand in hand ?No because the French and Germans have always had their own agendas. To dominate Europe while the rest of us bowing to them on bended knee.Well you can keep your single currency and your integrated union,We bow to no one and to think we can't manage without Europe is total rubbish.

[stevewinn]

Agreed,but will we see the perfect marriage between Sarkozy and Merkel?Will they skip into EU sunset hand in hand ?No because the French and Germans have always had their own agendas. To dominate Europe while the rest of us bowing to them on bended knee.Well you can keep your single currency and your integrated union,We bow to no one and to think we can't manage without Europe is total rubbish.

that's the spirit we need more of in this country and will only grow stronger if its perceived the EU is against us.

the meeting hasn't saved the euro. so what changed nothing except the EU as gained more powers over member nations. they've replaced two countries governments already in Greece and Italy both unelected techoncrats.

what the europhiles dont tell you is secretly they are relieved our prime minister vetoed, otherwise if Cameron would agreed with the rest of them that would have forced a referendum here in the UK and we all know the outcome of that. a prolonged process ending with Britain leaving the EU. that would have sent shock waves through the EU. and at this moment in time it would have sunk the boat.

[skookum]

Seems to be that the first polls taken by the news papers show good support for the Cameron decision.

Some 70% of voters want a vote on Britain's EU membership, and by a substantial nine-point margin respondents say they would vote for UK withdrawal.

Forty-nine per cent would vote to get Britain out of Europe, against just 40% who prefer to stay in.

Poll

I know many EU members are very angry at Great Britain's opt out of the treaty. But shouldn't the decision of the citizens of GB be respected?

Norway, Iceland and Switzerland have decided that the EU is not for them and are not receiving this kind of hostility for their position.

[questionmark]

Agreed,but will we see the perfect marriage between Sarkozy and Merkel?Will they skip into EU sunset hand in hand ?No because the French and Germans have always had their own agendas. To dominate Europe while the rest of us bowing to them on bended knee.Well you can keep your single currency and your integrated union,We bow to no one and to think we can't manage without Europe is total rubbish.

It does not have to be, they have a common goal and that is to swing a bigger stick than they ever would be able to going it alone. So far they have succeeded economically, nobody else has more to show (with Britain or without). They are taking this "being nobodies poodle thingy" seriously.

Edited December 11, 2011 by questionmark

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

It does not have to be, they have a common goal and that is to swing a bigger stick than they ever would be able to going it alone. So far they have succeeded economically, nobody else has more to show (with Britain or without). They are taking this "being nobodies poodle thingy" seriously.

Well lets see now,the Irish had to be bailed out,the Greeks of course.The Italians are in it right upto their necks.The Spanish and Portugese are heading in the same direction.The french and Germans aren't saying how much they are in the mire.So if thats your idea of success then i don't know what is.

[questionmark]

Well lets see now,the Irish had to be bailed out,the Greeks of course.The Italians are in it right upto their necks.The Spanish and Portugese are heading in the same direction.The french and Germans aren't saying how much they are in the mire.So if thats your idea of success then i don't know what is.

If you want to see it that way... I would say that at this point the Euro is the strongest currency, if the eurozone sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold, commodity prices are not depending anymore on how well the US economy is faring but on the valuation of the Euro (as easily seen Euro down, commodities down) and they have the biggest economy in the world (2 trillion more than the US) and are the world's biggest exporter. Not bad for a economic zone about to go "bust".

Spain or Portugal having problems matter as much in the big picture as if the Lake District in Britain would have troubles for the British big picture. And France's problems is nothing a little austerity program Gerhard Schroeder style could not fix. But they have agreed to that already the day Europe lost patience with Britain (as Reuters puts it).

[Guest]

Well lets see now,the Irish had to be bailed out,the Greeks of course.The Italians are in it right upto their necks.The Spanish and Portugese are heading in the same direction.The french and Germans aren't saying how much they are in the mire.So if thats your idea of success then i don't know what is.

The question is, are you better out on your own (with no resources) or in a club of mutual support (with more resources to share around) ??

Cameron seems to think that he can continue to use the money markets to buy his way out of trouble - when every serious leader in the world is talking about cracking down on the money markets for their irresponsible behaviour. I somehow suspect that Cameron is backing the wrong horse at this junction in history.

Br Cornelius

[itsnotoutthere]

In related news:

Says the german magazine SPIEGEL without a hint of german bias.

[itsnotoutthere]

Seems to me that the one thing that the pro E.U. commentators are glossing over (deliberately no doubt) is that this whole episode confirms the truth that the whole E.U. project is heading towards a federal europe with loss of Sovereignty for member states, a democratically unelected ruling body & ultimately a united states of europe.

[questionmark]

Seems to me that the one thing that the pro E.U. commentators are glossing over (deliberately no doubt) is that this whole episode confirms the truth that the whole E.U. project is heading towards a federal europe with loss of Sovereignty for member states, a democratically unelected ruling body & ultimately a united states of europe.

Evidently you have not been listening to the speeches on Europe day in Strasbourg, have you? They have made no secret of that for the last 15 years.

[itsnotoutthere]

Evidently you have not been listening to the speeches on Europe day in Strasbourg, have you? They have made no secret of that for the last 15 years.

And presumably you're o.k. with that.

[questionmark]

And presumably you're o.k. with that.

What is the purpose of joining first the market, then the laws, then the economy,after that the currency if the end product is not a federal state?

And whether I am OK with that or not is not the point standing to debate, the question is: is the majority OK with that? And that evidently stands 26 to 1.

[Leonardo]

And presumably you're o.k. with that.

What, realistically, is the difference between having a 'Federal State of Europe' and having a Europe composed of several States?

The only difference is the name.

In both, you are beholden to the decisions and laws made in office by the elected government.

The entire 'Keep the UK, Britain' campaign is based on the myth that you are somehow defined by the name of the country you are born in.

[Caesar]

What, realistically, is the difference between having a 'Federal State of Europe' and having a Europe composed of several States?

The only difference is the name.

Whats the difference between having the 'Federal State of Europe' and having 27 nations being part a union?

[Guest]

Whats the difference between having the 'Federal State of Europe' and having 27 nations being part a union?

A federation is a union of agreeable states - you should know that been an American. The states still exist - but have simply agreed to pool resources and policy to achieve a common good.

Maybe we should all devolve down to county level - because thats the logical end point of this philosophy.

Br Cornelius

[Caesar]

A federation is a union of agreeable states - you should know that been an American. The states still exist - but have simply agreed to pool resources and policy to achieve a common good.

So another words they give up rights like controlling immagration and its fisheries to name a few to a bunch of unelected burocrats and the people have no chance to vote on these policies. you simply can not treat Germany the same way you treat Greece, these riots will go on forever!

[Guest]

So another words they give up rights like controlling immagration and its fisheries to name a few to a bunch of unelected burocrats and the people have no chance to vote on these policies. you simply can not treat Germany the same way you treat Greece, these riots will go on forever!

Aren't you forgetting that the council of ministers is selected from the current Governments of each member state (democracy), and then there is the European parliament which is directly elected by the citizens of the member states. If thats not a definition of how democracy works then maybe you could clarify what you mean,

So fiscal prudence and living within your budget are impossible for the Greeks. That sounds a wee bit insulting to me.

Br Cornelius

Edited December 12, 2011 by Guest

[questionmark]

So another words they give up rights like controlling immagration and its fisheries to name a few to a bunch of unelected burocrats and the people have no chance to vote on these policies. you simply can not treat Germany the same way you treat Greece, these riots will go on forever!

I don't know where you guys always get this unelected bureaucrat crap from, unless you have been listening for too long to some British nationalists.

Anybody in the EU commission has been:

A] Proposed by a national government (democratically elected)

B] confirmed by the Council (heads of states of all governments, democratically elected)

C] confirmed by the European Parliament (elected by all Europeans in free and secret ballot)

That is at least one more step than getting to be secretary of state in the US and two more than to be minister in the British government.

Edited December 12, 2011 by questionmark

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

I don't know where you guys always get this unelected bureaucrat crap from, unless you have been listening for too long to some British nationalists.

Anybody in the EU commission has been:

A] Proposed by a national government (democratically elected)

B] confirmed by the Council (heads of states of all governments, democratically elected)

C] confirmed by the European Parliament (elected by all Europeans in free and secret ballot)

That is at least one more step than getting to be secretary of state in the US and two more than to be minister in the British government.

As a so called British Nationalist,i didn't vote for any of these Eurocrats and that is the problem.Once we elect our respective heads of state,then we have no say in the beaurcratic machine of the EEC.

We Brits never wanted in but we were never given the choice.At the end of the day it is our choice and our choice alone,and as i have already said we would never accept the EEC flag or lose our sovereignty.

Anyway the Euro is collapsing like an house of cards and there is no glossing over that.

[questionmark]

As a so called British Nationalist,i didn't vote for any of these Eurocrats and that is the problem.Once we elect our respective heads of state,then we have no say in the beaurcratic machine of the EEC.

We Brits never wanted in but we were never given the choice.At the end of the day it is our choice and our choice alone,and as i have already said we would never accept the EEC flag or lose our sovereignty.

Anyway the Euro is collapsing like an house of cards and there is no glossing over that.

What are you saying, that you (or the majority of the British) did not elect the Prime Minister who proposed the commission member and did not elect the Prime Minister who confirmed that member on the Council nor voted for any members of the European Parliament who accepted that member of the commission?

How many ministers and members of the British Parliament did you vote for? Had a reality check lately?

And the Euro will not end, as the rest of Europe has chosen that it "is our currency but your problem". The best all from the outside can do is lower its value, which is good for them as they can sell more. Get it to $0.80 and while the rest of the world has a recession next year they will have growth (at the expense of those who are speculating against the Euro, naturally).

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

What are you saying, that you (or the majority of the British) did not elect the Prime Minister who proposed the commission member and did not elect the Prime Minister who confirmed that member on the Council nor voted for any members of the European Parliament who accepted that member of the commission?

How many ministers and members of the British Parliament did you vote for? Had a reality check lately?

And the Euro will not end, as the rest of Europe has chosen that it "is our currency but your problem". The best all from the outside can do is lower its value, which is good for them as they can sell more. Get it to $0.80 and while the rest of the world has a recession next year they will have growth (at the expense of those who are speculating against the Euro, naturally).

yes we elected our prime minister but it doesn't mean to say that he should confirm or select any commisioners on the Euro council.

Oh and the Euro isn't our problem seriously,we don't sit there day in day out worrying about it.And all things considered i don't think their growth will be any more spectacular than any where else in the world,us included.

[Professor Buzzkill]

Why would you want a United States of Europe (USE)? Has the USA's economy and democracy swayed you into thinking its a good idea?

As part of the commonwealth, with the Queen as our head of state, i would hate to think that "mother England" was actually a state in a "USE". Whats next? an expanded UN where no country has full and final say about their own laws? Like in the USA federal law trumps state....

[itsnotoutthere]

What, realistically, is the difference between having a 'Federal State of Europe' and having a Europe composed of several States?

The only difference is the name.

In both, you are beholden to the decisions and laws made in office by the elected government.

The entire 'Keep the UK, Britain' campaign is based on the myth that you are somehow defined by the name of the country you are born in.

Well that goes to the heart of the problem. And the answer is that with the latter, when you disagree with the way they're running things after five years you get the chance to elect somebody else to do a better job, but with the former you don't... simples. If the other european countries are quite happy to have an unelected (by the people they are supposed to serve) council wield power & make decisions like say....er changing their prime minister for one of their own, then let them get on with it.

They could have saved all the bother by just surrendering during the second world war.

[skookum]

Looks like all this wont make much difference anyway. The Bundesbank has just stuck a spanner in the works of the problem faced right now.

Germany’s top central banker cooled speculation that the European Central Bank will extend its role as European leaders pressed their case that a new fiscal accord will deliver the region from its two-year-old debt crisis.

Bundesbank

Papering over the cracks seems not to have impressed the ECB.

Borrowing also increased for Italy and Spain. This crisis needs sorting instead of them focusing on what to do IF the Euro survives.

Edited December 12, 2011 by skookum