Britain Suffers as a Bystander to Eurocrisis

[stevewinn]

Full Marks Steve... for evading any actual answers to the questions I posed.

Lets start from the beginning... WHY did Germany need saving / preserving, and what did they need "saving / preserving from exactly??

saving from the crisis that is engulfing the eurozone. you only have to look at the actions taken so far, have they not all be in the interest of Germany and their economy and it continues to this day.

[questionmark]

saving from the crisis that is engulfing the eurozone. you only have to look at the actions taken so far, have they not all be in the interest of Germany and their economy and it continues to this day.

No quite, Spain is selling its bonds cheaper, the French have less pressure on their banking sector, but you don't have to take my word for it, you just have to read something that is not the Torygraph or the Snail:

Stocks, euro rise as data offer relief

(Reuters) - U.S. and European stocks and the euro rose on Thursday as encouraging U.S. economic data and a solid Spanish debt auction mitigated fears that the euro zone debt crisis could spark a global recession.

U.S. first-time claims for jobless benefits fell to a 3-1/2-year low in the latest week, raising expectations that the weak labor market, which has bogged down U.S. economic growth, might be gaining traction. Signs of strength in the manufacturing sector also boosted investors' risk appetite.

There was also a sign of improvement in the European economy. A private gauge of euro zone manufacturing unexpectedly rose in December,

Source

What I said is that all it takes to keep the Eurozone afloat is a growing Germany, not that the objective of the Eurozone is to benefit Germany, that is what some like to spread as a rumor thinking that they can do something against a more powerful neighbor.

[stevewinn]

No quite, Spain is selling its bonds cheaper, the French have less pressure on their banking sector, but you don't have to take my word for it, you just have to read something that is not the Torygraph or the Snail:

What I said is that all it takes to keep the Eurozone afloat is a growing Germany, not that the objective of the Eurozone is to benefit Germany, that is what some like to spread as a rumor thinking that they can do something against a more powerful neighbor.

all it takes to keep the euro afloat is a growing Germany and what of the rest, oh yes we already know the answer.

[keithisco]

all it takes to keep the euro afloat is a growing Germany and what of the rest, oh yes we already know the answer.

.. and when the Financial Markets Bubble bursts who will be there to help Sterling??

[Guest]

.. and when the Financial Markets Bubble bursts who will be there to help Sterling??

Br Cornelius

[skookum]

.. and when the Financial Markets Bubble bursts who will be there to help Sterling??

Hasn't that already happened in 2007??? we are still here

[Caesar]

No quite, Spain is selling its bonds cheaper, the French have less pressure on their banking sector, but you don't have to take my word for it, you just have to read something that is not the Torygraph or the Snail:

Its still selling over 4% now with the Unemployment over 20% its growth rate is 0.3% in the last three quarters. thats sure to drill a hole in its debts.

What I said is that all it takes to keep the Eurozone afloat is a growing Germany, not that the objective of the Eurozone is to benefit Germany, that is what some like to spread as a rumor thinking that they can do something against a more powerful neighbor.

If most of the other nations in the EU like Italy, Spain, Portugual, Greece, and a few oher are falling then Germany will really have to pull off a golden age and I don't think the Germans would like bailing everyone out.

[questionmark]

Its still selling over 4% now with the Unemployment over 20% its growth rate is 0.3% in the last three quarters. thats sure to drill a hole in its debts.

If most of the other nations in the EU like Italy, Spain, Portugual, Greece, and a few oher are falling then Germany will really have to pull off a golden age and I don't think the Germans would like bailing everyone out.

OK, lets assume the worst scenario, France defaults. What would happen? That France defaults and the Euro goes further down. Good for the rest of the Eurozone as according to the Maastricht treaty the collective is not responsible for the debts of the others. So, good luck trying to cash in. While that the rest go on happily with a really undervalued currency steam rolling every market with their cheap wares.

[skookum]

saving from the crisis that is engulfing the eurozone. you only have to look at the actions taken so far, have they not all be in the interest of Germany and their economy and it continues to this day.

Totally agree, Germany is the only nation with the financial might to possibly end this crisis. They refuse to commit, I wonder why? Except they demand others take big hits on their own economies to prop up their interests.

[Caesar]

OK, lets assume the worst scenario, France defaults. What would happen? That France defaults and the Euro goes further down. Good for the rest of the Eurozone as according to the Maastricht treaty the collective is not responsible for the debts of the others. So, good luck trying to cash in. While that the rest go on happily with a really undervalued currency steam rolling every market with their cheap wares.

We are talking about many countries within the EU that are in trouble the whole Euro would fall, credit would dry up, you would see Governments and states cutting its work force, imports would cost more like plastics, crude oil, chemicals, metals and other things the EU needs to import. not only will the products be cheaper but also the companies that other nations might want to buy or take over.

[Caesar]

Totally agree, Germany is the only nation with the financial might to possibly end this crisis. They refuse to commit, I wonder why? Except they demand others take big hits on their own economies to prop up their interests.

We kinda have that same problem here in America with California. why should states that bail out states that have no contol with its revinues

[questionmark]

We are talking about many countries within the EU that are in trouble the whole Euro would fall, credit would dry up, you would see Governments and states cutting its work force, imports would cost more like plastics, crude oil, chemicals, metals and other things the EU needs to import. not only will the products be cheaper but also the companies that other nations might want to buy or take over.

As long as some of these countries, bankrupt or not, would keep on using the Euro it did not fail. That failure thing is the fallacy that is going on in all brains. Iceland went bankrupt and is still using the Krona, Argentina went bankrupt and still is using the Peso, Spain went bankrupt in 1557 and kept on using the Peseta until it was replaced by the Euro in 2000. There is no rule that says that a bankrupt country needs a different currency.

Much of these rumors are the wish of some, who always were against the Euro to start with, that it would go away. Well, it will not happen. Most Europeans want to keep it and don't care what the market reaction is, as should be evident for all by now. It looks that some of those wishful thinkers don't care that they are sinking the economies of their own countries in the process, because so far all they did is cause most of the damage outside the Eurozone (see USA banks, Asian exports and so on). And if any country in the Eurozone bellies up most of the damage will be in those economies that are vulnerable, ie, more debt than GDP, export dependent and developing, and most of them are outside the eurozone.

[Caesar]

As long as some of these countries, bankrupt or not, would keep on using the Euro it did not fail. That failure thing is the fallacy that is going on in all brains. Iceland went bankrupt and is still using the Krona, Argentina went bankrupt and still is using the Peso, Spain went bankrupt in 1557 and kept on using the Peseta until it was replaced by the Euro in 2000. There is no rule that says that a bankrupt country needs a different currency.

The EU isn't the same as these smaller nations or Spain in the mid 1500's. a broken currency will have different effcts on each nation within the EU and for the nations that are doing good, it will hurt and its people would want to drop the Euro and go with dollars, gold or return to its old currency. I just fail to see how you think that exports would some how cut short an economic callaps, yes it helps but if it was that easy wouldn't other nations do it? unless your in a communist nation it doesn't.

Much of these rumors are the wish of some, who always were against the Euro to start with, that it would go away. Well, it will not happen. Most Europeans want to keep it and don't care what the market reaction is, as should be evident for all by now. It looks that some of those wishful thinkers don't care that they are sinking the economies of their own countries in the process, because so far all they did is cause most of the damage outside the Eurozone (see USA banks, Asian exports and so on). And if any country in the Eurozone bellies up most of the damage will be in those economies that are vulnerable, ie, more debt than GDP, export dependent and developing, and most of them are outside the eurozone.

People will care when they see masive inflation, more job losses, riots and in a massive depression.

A broken Euro/ Europe would hurt the US economy so I don't think anyone wants that.

[questionmark]

The EU isn't the same as these smaller nations or Spain in the mid 1500's. a broken currency will have different effcts on each nation within the EU and for the nations that are doing good, it will hurt and its people would want to drop the Euro and go with dollars, gold or return to its old currency. I just fail to see how you think that exports would some how cut short an economic callaps, yes it helps but if it was that easy wouldn't other nations do it? unless your in a communist nation it doesn't.

People will care when they see masive inflation, more job losses, riots and in a massive depression.

A broken Euro/ Europe would hurt the US economy so I don't think anyone wants that.

Spain was not a small nation in 1500, it was THE superpower. With that bankruptcy England rose.

And if any of the nations go bankrupt there will be inflation anyway, regardless of the currency in use. If the Euro is kept the economies will not have to spend almost half a billion for the changeover cost as they had in 2000. (Just think teller machines, bank tellers, forms, contract that had to be changed and so on). Wrong line of argumentation.

[Caesar]

Spain was not a small nation in 1500, it was THE superpower. With that bankruptcy England rose.

It lead to a war with the French, right? I didn't say they were small "The EU isn't the same as these smaller nations or Spain in the mid 1500's"

And if any of the nations go bankrupt there will be inflation anyway, regardless of the currency in use. If the Euro is kept the economies will not have to spend almost half a billion for the changeover cost as they had in 2000. (Just think teller machines, bank tellers, forms, contract that had to be changed and so on). Wrong line of argumentation.

Public support will change when they are looking at a depression in the face. look at some of these austerity measures some nations are going threw with the riots. you should know, some are in Greece.

[skookum]

It lead to a war with the French, right? I didn't say they were small "The EU isn't the same as these smaller nations or Spain in the mid 1500's"

Public support will change when they are looking at a depression in the face. look at some of these austerity measures some nations are going threw with the riots. you should know, some are in Greece.

'

Yes it is going to go from one extreme to another, the public in these countries have had years of being 'takers' from the EU and having benefits their countries wouldn't have been able to do on it's own. Now they are at the other extreme were they are being forced to stop spending and having very reduced powers over their own budgets. When this is truly felt at ground level I am pretty sure the Euro will not feel as 'wonderful' as it was.

Lets face who is going to hate being given money? Except now their isn't any to give.

[Guest]

It lead to a war with the French, right? I didn't say they were small "The EU isn't the same as these smaller nations or Spain in the mid 1500's"

Public support will change when they are looking at a depression in the face. look at some of these austerity measures some nations are going threw with the riots. you should know, some are in Greece.

But doing away with the Euro doesn't make any of the issues go away - so it is a moot point.

The EU is introducing measures to enforce fiscal prudence - which after all if the conservative solution - so why are you against the current efforts to stabilise a currency which functions. I am certain you would not be arguing down the same line about the collapse of the US Dollar and how it would be a terribly great thing for America and the world - and yet by all fair metrics the Dollar is in a far worse state than the Euro. It is only its world reserve status which has insulated it from total collapse, and America has milked that for every cent it can.

The Euro is not the problem here - it was fiscally irresponsible soverign countries (like America is a fiscally irresponsible country), at least the EU has faced up to the issues and is attempting to address them. The two countries in the world who are attempting to resist regulations to make fiscal irresponsibility more difficult are the UK and the US, and these are exactly the two countries representatives who are weighing in so strongly in this debate to bad mouth the Euro. Maybe its because your countries are addicted to irresponsible behaviour and making others take the hit for it.

Br Cornelius

Edited December 16, 2011 by Guest

[skookum]

UK officials will join talks over eurozone deal

Source

On Thursday the Czech and Hungarian leaders said they would not sign anything that would force them to give up independent tax policies - and there are some concerns in Denmark, Sweden and Finland.

[stevewinn]

keep an eye on Portugal Britain's oldest ally, their in the eurozone but that wont stop them, watch for spanners being thrown.

[skookum]

I see Christian Noyer is throwing his toys out of his pram.

Gallic pride is obviously hurting.

[questionmark]

We are talking about many countries within the EU that are in trouble the whole Euro would fall, credit would dry up, you would see Governments and states cutting its work force, imports would cost more like plastics, crude oil, chemicals, metals and other things the EU needs to import. not only will the products be cheaper but also the companies that other nations might want to buy or take over.

So far, every time the Euro tanks commodities, including oil and gold, tank with it. No indication that this will change soon. In fact, Europe seems the last reliable market left for commodity traders.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

I see Christian Noyer is throwing his toys out of his pram.

Gallic pride is obviously hurting.

lets face it the french have always spat their dummies out when things don't go their way.Britains credit rating was maintained for good reason because tough fiscal policies were introduced,unpopular as they are but were necessary to address our deficit.we are in deep but us Brits will always dig in deep when required.

[stevewinn]

I see Christian Noyer is throwing his toys out of his pram.

Gallic pride is obviously hurting.

The cheese eating surrender monkeys. what else do you expect from so called allies and good neighbours of ours. The French National Statistics agency has predicted the French Economy will go into Recession for a second time. downgrade its credit rating will happen. he then claimed that the economic situation was even worse in Britain.

what he seems to forget is that the UK faced the same warning of a credit down grade and possible recession. but what did the UK government do they came up with a plan of action to cut the deficit and instill confidence in the market and with the UK government in recent months sticking to these plans against tough opposition here at home they have given the markets even greater confidence. France on the other hand playing second fiddle has been to busy carrying German chancellor Merkels handbag.

[Guest]

The cheese eating surrender monkeys. what else do you expect from so called allies and good neighbours of ours. The French National Statistics agency has predicted the French Economy will go into Recession for a second time. downgrade its credit rating will happen. he then claimed that the economic situation was even worse in Britain.

what he seems to forget is that the UK faced the same warning of a credit down grade and possible recession. but what did the UK government do they came up with a plan of action to cut the deficit and instill confidence in the market and with the UK government in recent months sticking to these plans against tough opposition here at home they have given the markets even greater confidence. France on the other hand playing second fiddle has been to busy carrying German chancellor Merkels handbag.

Gratuitous bigotry - now theres a surprise.

Tanking the economy, killing growth and sending yourself into recession is considered winning in England these days.

If you don't like the rules, just change them to ones which suit

Br Cornelius

[Caesar]

But doing away with the Euro doesn't make any of the issues go away - so it is a moot point.

I said the Euro had problems, that doesn't mean that they should get rid of it all togeather.,

The EU is introducing measures to enforce fiscal prudence - which after all if the conservative solution - so why are you against the current efforts to stabilise a currency which functions. I am certain you would not be arguing down the same line about the collapse of the US Dollar and how it would be a terribly great thing for America and the world - and yet by all fair metrics the Dollar is in a far worse state than the Euro. It is only its world reserve status which has insulated it from total collapse, and America has milked that for every cent it can.

So your going to defend all these failed actions by the EU and attack the U.S.? the U.S, is one nation so it could deal with inflation much better the 27 economies. the reason why the dollar is so stronge/reserve status is because people have faith in the U.S. economy.

The Euro is not the problem here - it was fiscally irresponsible soverign countries (like America is a fiscally irresponsible country), at least the EU has faced up to the issues and is attempting to address them.

So with about half of the nations in the EU that have a debt to GDP ratio about the same or worst then the US, you going to blame the U.S.? are you saying Greece, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal were fiscally irresponsible?

The two countries in the world who are attempting to resist regulations to make fiscal irresponsibility more difficult are the UK and the US, and these are exactly the two countries representatives who are weighing in so strongly in this debate to bad mouth the Euro. Maybe its because your countries are addicted to irresponsible behaviour and making others take the hit for it.

Br Cornelius

Sure blame the world for the fall of the Euro, I still think its the EU and many nations in it that are fiscally irresponsible, thats what the markets are telling me.